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FIP and/or pneumonia??? - Page 2

post #31 of 74
FIP is NOT contagious as originally thought. If anything the kittens were infected by the queen and stress can bring the disease to full light. I would watch how many rescues you bring in and protect your core kittens and cats with vaccinations. (I recently lost 15 rescues- both from FeLV and distemper) It was nasty and heartbreaking and I am no longer actively rescuing. I will care for the remaining 12 that are my core cats and help others in different ways besides opening my home to more cats.

Best of luck-
post #32 of 74
Thread Starter 
I would say it has to be contagious. The two cats that had it were unrelated and it different rooms on each side of the house. They never had contact, and are each with their own littermates. There is no doubt that this is the FIP because they both had the fluid in their abdomens and lungs, and both died, where we know that FIP is always fatal. How to prevent it from going to anyone else, is beyond me. Be gone FIP! Be gone FIP! It is just so wrong!
post #33 of 74
Oh I'm so, so sorry. What a devastating thing. I pray that everyone else is spared. FIP is just the most horrible...I know!
post #34 of 74
I am sorry it is FIP - you need to throw out as much as possible, and bleach everything else. As they were opposite ends of the house, I would also advise taking nothing else in for around 6 months, as teh Corona virus (FIP is a mutation of the corona virus, so cat's dont carry FIP) can take a while to shift, and tends to affect the young and old mostly due to the weaker immune system. Vaccinations might not work, as you can't vaccinate against FIP. RIP little ones, and I pray that these are the only two affected.
post #35 of 74
I know this is a time when answers really help, and you have every right to believe that this was FIP. I can completely understand if you can take comfort in that diagnosis. Normally, I would let you grieve the loss of your pets and put my reservations aside.

BUT, since there are other cats in the picture, that may or may not become ill in the future, I have to say:

I really have a gut feeling (as much as I can in a situation that I have no firsthand knowledge of), that this was NOT FIP. In all my reading, I have learned that FIP is a sudden onset disease. However, the rate at which this disease manifested and took the lives of these cats, is much quicker than the progressions of FIP that I have read about (usually weeks, not days).

Also, the fact that these two cats never had any contact with each other and were from different litters, makes me suspicious. It could be pure coincidence, but it would be quite the coincidence. FIP is NOT contagious. Coronavirus is, but it is transmitted through FECES, not through the air. So, unless these cats shared a little box, or other items that may have come into contact with feces, coronavirus should not have been transmitted from one cat to another. And even if it was....coronavirus does not immediately result in FIP. The coronavirus mutates into the FIP virus (which is not transmitted)...which can happen at any time. Again, seems too much of a coincidence for me to believe.

In addition, FIP manifests itself in various ways...and the fact that these two cats who were unrelated manifested the exact same symptoms...again, quite the coincidence.

I wish I had an answer to these doubts I have. I looked online for over an hour last night to try to find answers that might help you. And again today, I've been looking for a better explanation that run-of-the-mill FIP (which really, is anything but run-of-the-mill). I have not had much luck.

The best thing I have come up with is bacterial peritonitis, which, unlike FIP, is treatable. Symptoms are quite similar to what your cats suffered from. However, I have not been able to find much information on the cause of this condition. It can be caused from various bacteria/parasitic infections and liver conditions, among other things. It is treated with anti-biotics - but keep in mind that Clavomax (the a-b I believe you used), is a relatively weak and wide-spectrum antibiotic which won't necessarily do the trick for all bacterial infections. It's obviously not a diagnosis - only a possibility among many others. However, it was the closest match I could find.

If another cat gets sick, I think you really need to look at environmental factors that they may have in common. Do they eat the same food? Does their water come from the same source (tap, well...I don't mean the same bowl). Are there any chemicals they have been exposed to?

I truly hope that these questions become irrelevent and that you do not have to deal with illness in another cat. It sounds like you do wonderful work for the cats you care for, and it is horrible that you should have to deal with such devastating loss in a single month.
post #36 of 74
Thread Starter 
I am trying to go in and take care of each group of cats. As I am going through each section, I am finding a few that don't look good and/or feel good. I noticed yesterday everyone ate less-probably because they know something is wrong. But now I have four cats so far that are all sitting in a little ball, and don't look good. I don't know how to deal with this. These are my babies!!!!!!!
post #37 of 74
OK...assuming your cats have been vaccinated against the normal infectious diseases (distemper and calicavirus, specifically)...

Did you have any blood work done on either of the two previous cats? Were there any abnormalities in it?

I'm assuming you are in a rural area because of the number of cats you have/care for outdoors. Do the cats that are sick have any access to outdoors?

What kind of food are you feeding? Brand and wet/dry...

An easy first step which may make absolutely NO difference at all, but isn't hard to do is to start giving the cats bottled water instead of water from the tap/well. If bottled water isn't an option, perhaps water that has been boiled and then cooled down.

I'm definitely thinking it's gotta be something that they have injested or come into contact with. Short of some sort of odd airbourne bacteria/virus.

I'm still firm on my belief that this is likely not FIP. More ill cats really solidify that with me. They wouldn't all be getting sick at the same time.
post #38 of 74
Also, what is your relationship like with your vet? Is it possible that she could make a home visit.

If there are cats that are not acting well, I'd get them to the vet immediately. Since there are multiple cats, perhaps a home visit would be a better option.
post #39 of 74
Thread Starter 
My cats are not vaccinated so that is an issue, however, with FIP it wouldn't make a difference, only if it made them less susceptible. No blood work was done, due to cost and trying to treat multiple animals at once. I feed alot of outdoor feral cats but all of my rescues are indoor cats, but all, other than who was born here, came from outside originally. My indoor cats all get purina cat chow. The feral cats get wet can food as well outside. I do give everyone tap water. It is following in all of the symptoms of FIP. It is immediate, instant decline, and then very sick and then dead. The little baby last night was full of the yellow fluid and it smelled very rotten! Sissy was full of brown yellow fluid also and had the yellow fluid filled in her ears as well. And the vet did say the cats would be fine and then not. This is the progression I have seen:

1-Cat stops eating and/or drinking water
2-They sit in a ball with their head down
3-They lay on their side or belly
4-Their eyes stop responding
5-And then they just lay there, with some pain and then they don't make it

Now the little boy last night also had a seizure an hour before he died
and then he started coughing like he was gagging when he was dying and fluid was coming out of his mouth, and after, it came out his bottom area.

Both were completely filled with the abdominal and chest fluid.

We keep hearing its not contagious, but we can't understand why it looks like it is spreading around if it isn't. Supposedly it takes a mutated gene in each cat's immune system. Every cat we rescued could not possibly have this mutated gene.

As it stands, there are at least 4 I am concerned about and then the others that are sneezing are suspect as well. I need to try to finish my rounds with them, which is not going to well, and then try to do more in-depth cleaning of cages and litterboxes.

I am hoping that maybe some will all of a sudden have URI instead, and that it is mimicking FIP as far as the sneezing goes. I don't know this whole thing is so beyond me. I would never want this for my babies. I didn't spend all my time rescuing them for this to be there fate......
post #40 of 74
There are other diseases that involve fluid build up in the abdomen...including bacterial peritonitis....(which could be a complication of say...calicivirus, which is highly infectious and usually vaccinated against.

I hope that these cats that do not look well do not have whatever the previous two cats had.

However, I strongly suggest that you take the one that seems to be the unhealthiest to the vet and get a full blood panel done. Just one. It costs money, yes, but it is not ridiculously expensive, and in the end, may help you solve this mystery. Don't even bother with a coronavirus test...I think you can assume that all your cats, being rescues, will test positive for that.

If you're just going to accept that this is FIP and there is nothing you can do, and it turns out not to be FIP, then all these cats are going to die anyway.

FIP is not the only disease that can have a sudden onset and take a life quickly. It's an "all cats are animals, but not all animals are cats" kind of thing.

Have you posted on the Yahoo! group about your situation yet? They know much more than me about FIP as well as differential diagnoses.

For now, this is where my advice ends. If you truly believe it is FIP, then there is not much to be done anyway. My best wishes to you and your animal family.
post #41 of 74
Thread Starter 
Really I don't know. The vet told us it was FIP for Sissy. The one last night had the exact symptoms and progression. There are three now following and possibly another. If there ever was a chance it was distemper or calicivirus would it cause the belly and chest fluid?? And if it does, could they be treated?? What makes it worse is that it is New Years, no vets will be open tomorrow. And I don't know where we will stand by Friday. Is there anything that can be done for these cats if it wasn't FIP?? If it is distemper can it be treated? I am only going by the vet and the symptoms, but if it is not a correct diagnosis and there is something to be done, by all means, I would do it. In the meantime, until Friday, is there anything I can do to help these cats until I can get someone blood tested? Looking at some symptoms for distemper, I would consider it a possibility, because there was a diareah issue pending prior to this with a few cats. I would never want to know the vet told us one thing, and that we could be more effective treating them differently for another...Thanks for the info zoeysmom, I appreciate it, and want to know anything that could be an option to help. If it is a matter of testing one to find out if it is possible to prevent and save more deaths, than I will find a way!! We just feel so hopeless, figuring we are in FIP hell, and that all you can do is sit back and watch them go. That is the worst thing for anyone who rescues! You always want to help anyway possible and not have the cat be sick in anyway...
post #42 of 74
I really wish I could be more help in the coming days, but it is really difficult to know what to do when we don't know what is wrong with them.

There are other things that could cause the fluid. Whether it is likely to be calicivirus or distemper, I do not know. While I was trying to find some information about your situation, I found a number of things that COULD cause fluid buildup, but nothing definite.

I believe Calicivirus can be treated, as can bacterial pertonitis (I am still unsure of what causes this...as I said in an earlier post, I could not find much information about it. But, I do recall coming up with various bacteria/parasites.). Distemper is more difficult to treat - that said, I'm not too familiar with distemper, but what I know about it doesn't really match your situation. I could be wrong though. Those are just a couple of options.

Here is a post from the Yahoo! group about some of the differential diagnoses. Warning, it is a little bit overwhelming, but I think you can eliminate all possibilities that are not infectious/contagious, and that are slower progressing.


FIP should be considered in the differential diagnosis of any condition that causes peritoneal or thoracic fluid accumulation and in any chronic wasting disease of cats. Effusive FIP with peritoneal involvement should be differentiated from ascites due to congestive heart failure or hypoproteinemia (renal and liver disease, glomerulonephritis, malabsorption, parasitism), neoplasia, bacterial peritonitis, pansteatitis, toxoplasmosis, tuberculosis, pregnancy, and trauma. Differential diagnoses of effusive FIP with pleural effusion include cardiac insufficiency, neoplasia (lymphoma), pyothorax, chylothorax, cryptococcosis, lung lobe torsion, diaphragmatic hernia, and trauma (hemothorax). Differential diagnosis of noneffusive FIP includes neoplasia and other systemic infectious diseases such as toxoplasmosis, nocardiosis, actinomycosis, tuberculosis, and deep mycotic disease (cryptococcosis, coccidioidomycosis, histoplasmosis, blastomycosis).

Please be aware that this list may be longer, I would for example add IBD, Feline Panleukopenia, mycoplasma infections, chronic URI, stomatitis, tick borne diseases, FIV, FelV. Much depends also on how knowledgeable your vet is on FIP and other feline diseases.

The one thing that I would be interested in seeing from your tested kitty would be if his/her liver is functioning properly. During my research, that organ came up often and does seem to be a POSSIBLE culprit for fluid accumulation.

Unfortunately, short of an emergency vet, I'm not sure what you can do to help your kitties until you can get one of them in for blood work. Keep them comfortable and try to get some fluids and food into them (you may have to force feed/syringe water them).

I really hope everyone makes it through to Friday and maybe then you will have some more answers.
post #43 of 74
First, words cannot express how sorry I am for you in your loss of these cats.

Second, and I know this is probably a stupid question, but could anything be transferred from your clothing - to the kitties who never had contact with each other but apparently came down with the same illness?

Third, God bless people like you who do this work in rescue for animals.
post #44 of 74
Yet another possibility: Suppurative cholangiohepatitis

Usually caused by an infectious agent, such as e.coli bacteria. (So, it's not really contagious, it would go back to a common environmental factor).

You can find more info about it here: http://www.petplace.com/cats/cholang...tis/page1.aspx
post #45 of 74
Originally Posted by threecatowner View Post
Second, and I know this is probably a stupid question, but could anything be transferred from your clothing - to the kitties who never had contact with each other but apparently came down with the same illness?
Not a stupid question at all. It is possible, especially with some of the hardier viruses.
post #46 of 74
Thread Starter 
I am now devastated! I feel so sick inside myself watching this. Ten are affected. Two gone. One going. Three sneezing. And four mid way to very sick. I don't know what to do! I am losing all my babies!!
post #47 of 74
The bloated stomachs don't seem to fit with distemper.....are any of these kitties UTD on their distemper shots?
post #48 of 74
Fingers crossed that some can pull through till tomorrow - in the UK, we have emergency vets on call 24/7 that you can at least speak to, do you have something similar there? Might be worth ringing all the vets in the area and listening to answerphones just in case, even if you just speak to someone.
post #49 of 74
Thread Starter 
The five last night are still around right now. We decided very late to try to give each the amoxi drops (what was intended for the little boy two days ago). So we did that, and now we will get some sub q's fluids and begin again for today. Try to work on boosting them up, and saying lots of prayers!! One little one is still in bad shape, but we are going to try everything possible. Last night we felt like we had no choice but to give up completely and watch their fate, but we will try to do everything for today. Also, will give the healthy ones a b vitamin boost and some can food to help them try to stay okay. Need a miracle here to try to help them!! Thanks everyone for the support and advice. This is my outlet to try and cope with this devastation!
post #50 of 74
I'm so sorry that this situation has gotten to this point! You must be devastated. I am sad reading this news, I can't imagine what it is like to be the one giving it. Keep your head up. You are doing your best with these cats. Like Booktigger, I am crossing my fingers that some pull through to tomorrow or that you can find an emergency vet.

I've googled shelter/cattery outbreak and various combinations: I've come up with calicivirus and distemper most, with some mentions of FIP (haven't read about such a quick developing outbreak like yours...but, heck, who knows...I'll believe anything at this point!), salmonella, and bartonella. While none of these necessarily match the symptoms of your cats specifically, it has to be something!

I know this is hard, but please remember that you are helping these cats by giving them warmth and care in your home. Take comfort in that you have been able to do this for that cats, even the ones that don't make it through this.
post #51 of 74
Thread Starter 
Well, we are trying! We gave some sub q's to the ones who really needed it. Gave amoxi to the six that are showing signs. Syringe fed any who were not eating. Gave some pedialyte. And gave most of the healthier cats some wet can and B-50 complex. Everyone is now relaxing mostly. Two of the six treated are playing, so that is a good sign. One, Mickey, he looked better before and then after he ate, looked like last night. I am wondering if the food makes the virus hurt more in the intestines. He looked like himself again, but then went back. The three Sadie babies are all not too good. Two did eat on their own today, and the little one is very sick, but now all three don't look great. I literally have spent the last 5 hours with them for that round of sub q's and antibiotics and special feeding, but if it is any bit successful it well worth it. If they feel better, so will I! Continue prayers everyone!! Thanks alot!
post #52 of 74
I am sorry to hear all the sad news. I hope you don't lose anymore kitties.
post #53 of 74
Ask your vet to test for distemper. They can do the snap test in their office and you will know in 10 minutes if it is distemper or not. Your best bet is to start eliminating what it might be, instead of setting your mind that it is FIP.
post #54 of 74
I just feel so helpless. I'm so glad what you are doing seems to be doing some good. keeping them warm and hydrated seems to be helping. Hugs and vibes.
post #55 of 74
Any news on your babies?
post #56 of 74
Thread Starter 
4:33 am here. Every day has been so long dealing with this. The stress and anxiety is terrible. And the whole thing is devastating! We just lost another one, Smudgee Sadie baby. One Wednesday, she showed signs of having fluid in her. Yesterday she even ate some cat can and drank water. We gave her sub q's yesterday and today also, and amoxi drops. But by this evening, same symptoms as Sissy. And we just lost her about 2 1/2 hours ago. We now have the two other Sadie babies that she was with that are also being treated, and a fourth Sadie baby, who was seperate from them, now just started showing signs of sickness today. (They are about 17 months old.) One in another area showed signs of the yellow diarreah that goes with this. So I am watching him, he's only about 25 weeks. So now we are still treating sick, and watching the others. But seriously, we do not know how to cope with this. It is absolutely beyond us. One sick cat is always enough, but losing 3 from this in 8 days and 5 total within 25 days, it's bad...We are spending hours and hours trying to fight this disease/virus. And trying to take care of the healthy ones, to make sure they keep up their resistance, is just as important. Have no idea where this came from. All along everyone has done well aside from minor issues. Then this happened, and ruined everything!!We are trying to keep everyone as contained as possible in their crates, to avoid catching this. So everyone is sitting around and they know something is wrong. Now we are pretty sure it is FIP due to the same symptoms and fluid, but I would want to be sure it is not distemper. If FIP is so rare and not contagious, how did we end up with it? I still don't understand because when looking up info about it it says that less than 5% get it, and that even less than that will effect multiple cats in a household...It makes no sense, but definetly has destroyed us!!
post #57 of 74
Originally Posted by nowonder View Post
If FIP is so rare and not contagious, how did we end up with it?
And hence my doubt.

Have you taken anyone to the vet yet?

If you have not already....please do. Take a sample of the yellow stool as well.
post #58 of 74
Just a reach here........the cat food?? Is everyone getting the same thing?? I am at a loss right now too. Some how I am thinking this is air born. Unless before everyone presented signs, you transmitted this by touch And it has moved really fast. Blessing and love to you all. I don't know how you are coping. My next question, is anyone other then you a larger care center, foster home, and are they having problems? If this gets loose in your area it could roll like fire through out and really take a toll on the area.
post #59 of 74
Originally Posted by wingss2fly View Post
Just a reach here........the cat food?? Is everyone getting the same thing??
That has crossed my mind as well.
post #60 of 74
It reminds me of a bad case of botcholisum (sorry about the sp)
Something the cats have taken in, via foods or air, something all cats have come into contact with has a germ or virus. It has been transmitted to them from one source.
You need to have blood and feces samples done. This is like when a large cruse ship gets sick, and they have to quarantine them.
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