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post #1 of 42
Thread Starter 
How much responsibility does a breeder have in terms of FIP? If a kitten had to be euthanized at 9 months of age because of FIP what is fair for the breeder to offer? The kitten was kept up to date on the shots, was vaccinated also with the FelV vaccine, immediately after the neutering the kitten started to become ill and shortly after was euthanized. The contract at time of sale did not have a clause for FIP, the only thing for viral or bacterial infections was a one week warranty in which case the kitten had to be returned. The parent cats were FIV/FelV tested, as well as the kittens of that litter were screened for PKD. The kitten was the only cat in the household (an apartment) and was not an outdoor cat. Where could it have come in contact with the corona virus ?
If the breeder offers to replace the kitten with a similar, (not from the exact same parents as the male is still used to breed but the female was rehomed because of acting agressively towards the one of the other two female cats in the house) kitten, is the breeder acting fairly? Should the breeder also pay for any vet bills incurred while the kitten was in the care of the owner ? i.e. vaccinations, neutering, or euthanization cost ?) the breeder was informed that the cat was euthanized the day after it happened, however that was the first time the breeder was told there was any problem with the kitten to begin with. Any insight would be greatly appreciated Thanks
post #2 of 42
I lost a non-pedigreed kitty to FIP, and I would say there is no way to tell where he got it. It could've been the vet's office for all I know. In my opinion, if the breeder replaces a kitten, that's a pretty nice offer. I'm sure the breeder would feel bad that the kitten died as well.
post #3 of 42
If you did everything according to the contract (your vet saw him within the time frame given) and the cat was healthy, then the breeder does NOT have to replace the kitten after 9 months of you having it. Nor is he/she responsible for vet bills relating to the FIP or neutering.

Some breeders specifically say do NOT vaccinate for FELV (Charlie's breeder did), so that may or may not be part of the problem. How do you know the kitten had FIP?

Some breeders may guarentee the health for a year, but if the breeder did not have that in the contract, then they are not held responsible.

How old was the kitten when you got it and how long have you had the kitten?
post #4 of 42
Thread Starter 
i am the breeder actually, and i am struggling, as i had not forseen FIP (i know i should have consider it as a possibility that my kittens could come in contact with it at some point) but now at this particular point, i would like to do right by the owners of the kitten,
what is the issue with the FelV vaccine? As the parents were FIV/FelV tested, i didn't think the owners would go ahead with the FelV vaccine as to be honest it is apparently (at least according to my vet) not very common to do in our area.

There was not a post mortem done unfortunately, by the time i was contacted the body was already umm disposed of, however the main thing was the cat had a very swollen abdomin (brain fried, im not sure how to spell that for some reason) and there was fluid removed from his belly, so i do concur with the vet's conclusion that it was probably FIP. Now I do not have any issue with offering another kitten to the owners, as they did everything they were supposed to, however i was a little put out (to say the least) that the letter from their vet, and from what their vet told them, the kitten had the virus when they purchased it. I tried explaining to the owners that the kitten could have picked up the coronavirus from a variety of sources, not excluding my own house, and have arranged for my vet to provide me a statement concurring with that fact, however the owners (understandably distraught) are adamant that there is no way the kitten picked up the coronavirus after they took him home, and would like reimbursement for their vet bills. (vaccinations, neutering, euthanization) there were no vet bills for any health issues with the kitten ever.
Again i would like to do right by them, as they have not done anything wrong, but, how much responsibility should i shoulder ? In this situation, what would most other responsible breeders do ?
post #5 of 42
I'm so sorry, that must've been a double blow. I agree that there is no way of knowing where the kitten picked up the corona virus. There must be a place where the breeder's responsibility stops - do they expect you to reimburse them for the food the kitten ate? (whoops, that was kinda mean) Hugs.
post #6 of 42
Thread Starter 
thank you for your understanding, the owners of the kitten however are understandably upset, our phone call with each other had us both breaking up a little and i do want to make things right for them, i'm just not sure what another breeder would do in this situation and am hoping someone can offer some guidance, i want to do the right thing.
post #7 of 42
did your contract have any kind of a health garrenttee
post #8 of 42
Thread Starter 
sorry, i did put in the first post that the garantee did not have a clause for FIP, for anything viral or bacterial the kitten was garanteed for one week, which if there was a problem the kitten was to be returned for me to treat with my vet, at which point when the vet gave permission (stated the kitten was healthy) the kitten would be returned to the owner
post #9 of 42
then I would say go with your conscience... Yes giveing another kitten would be a of a thing but the kitten was not sick during your garentee period and without a firm dignosis ... PS I am NOT a breeder
post #10 of 42
I don't think you are obliged to pay vet bills or offer another kitten. It's really up to you if you'd like to offer another kitten.

Have they asked for any compensation?
post #11 of 42
Thread Starter 
yes, they would like the money back for what they put into the kitten, the euthanization, plus another kitten, my conscience says there wasn't really anything they did wrong, so it's not their fault that the kitten had to be euthanized, however, i don't feel that i should have to bear the brunt of the vet bills either, as they could have been in contact with me before making the decision to euthanize, or during the time period where he was ill. I would like to offer them another kitten, but i just wanted to check and see that i was acting as responsibly as other breeders, even though my cats are not papered, i do care about what happened to my cats offspring, i have received pictures of other litters in the past, as well as gone to visit a few of them as adults to see how they turned out = ) and have been happy except with one who turned out to have a not very nice personality
post #12 of 42
I am not a breeder, but I dont think it is fair on you to pay for vaccinations and neutering, that is something you expect to have to pay when you take on a cat. Euthanasia is a tricky one, but when I adopt cats, I take on the responsibility, I wouldnt expect the rescue to pay for it, as they are my cat, not theirs. Just out of curiosity, how come you are breeding unpapered cats?
post #13 of 42
This exact thing happend to me last year. I purchased a reg cat, had him shipped to me. I had him up to date on all his vaccs., had him nuetered and had him to the vets more than once for stool check. When he came to me he was sneezy and had diaherra. I only had him a few months. Three weeks after nuetur he got very ill. I rushed him to the vet. He gave many test. Including withdrawling fluid from his abdomen. He had that tested, and from there explained that he was certain it was wet FIP. He recommended we put him down. He also told me that, he more than likely got it at the cattery, as I have no other cats. I called my breeder that same day. We cried together on the phone. I asked if she would like an autopsy. She said no, not to worry we would work something out. I told her I realized that it didn't state anywhere in our contract that my kitten was to be replaced for this illness. She insisted that she would give me another kitten when she had one available. We are to get our replacement in FEb. Let me tell you this is a blessing. My four year old was extremely upset about the first kittens passing. It was awful for everyone in the family. We feel so lucky that our breeder is going to give us another kitten. We are paying for the air flight the kitten will have to take to get to us. I would never expect the breeder to do that. I would never expect the breeder to pay for the vet bills. We only had our kitten for a short time but we loved him so much that we felt he was our responsiblity, why would the breeder pay for those charges. Please give them a replacement kitten. But don't feel that you have to cover all those other charges.
post #14 of 42
IMO I think replacing the kitten is appropriate but no way should you pay the vet bills. And truthfully you do not even have to replace kitten but I know that is what I would do.
post #15 of 42

If the kitten was vetted (per contract) and found healthy at the time then you are in no way obligated to replace or refund bills.


If this is a family that has been fully screened, one you care for, and have a good relationship with, there is no harm in offering a replacement. However, all transportation costs should be borne by the new home, and a new contract should be drawn up.
post #16 of 42
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by booktigger View Post
I am not a breeder, but I dont think it is fair on you to pay for vaccinations and neutering, that is something you expect to have to pay when you take on a cat. Euthanasia is a tricky one, but when I adopt cats, I take on the responsibility, I wouldnt expect the rescue to pay for it, as they are my cat, not theirs. Just out of curiosity, how come you are breeding unpapered cats?
They are crosses, and i realize that there are definately breeders who strongly disagree with breeding a cross breed cat, however there was a long term breeeding goal in mind in terms of the cross, and i feel that i have acted fairly responsible as a breeder in terms of health checks for the parents, screening of potential purchasers, and the contract at time of sale, except for the issue with FIP which I did not ever expect to have happen, every purchaser knew that if they couldn't keep their kitten at any point in his/her life then I was only a phone call away, and wanted the cat back, i was very adamant on that point, the purchasers of this particular kitten did take exemplary care of the kitten, the only mistake they really made was not informing me of any health problems they were having after having the kitten neutered, and not making me aware of the situation as it happened rather then after the fact, not that there is much to be done with FIP i realize, I am more upset that they had the kitten euthanized without even talking to me, irregardless of what the problem was.
I am not a cattery, I had at the time they bought their kitten four cats, one of which i rehomed with a co worker early fall last year, as she was not getting along with the our cat who had been in the house longest, i tried for over a year and a half to allow them to adjust to each other, however it did not end up working out, unless i kept one of them locked up in a room, which was not acceptable to me. I do not sell my kittens for thousands of dollars, there is no one who can claim i am selling them purely to make a profit, the price i sell them for is laughable in reality. I am very disappointed by the situation that has occurred, and though I have one (planned) litter for this year, due in March, after this I do not feel as though I am emotionally suited to be a breeder, and i do not ever want to have to have this problem occur in the future, it was very upsetting, and not just for me, but for the owners of Gizmo as well, doubly upsetting for them I would guess, as I have, thankfully never had to go through the loss of a beloved pet like that ..... yet ...however, again, i want to do right by Gizmo's family, I don't want to be "that BYB who sells sicks cats and doesn't take responsibility for the cats she sells" which is why i thought i would sick input from breeders who bred registered cats, as to what they would do in a similar situation. I also which to thank every one who has so far offered their input.
post #17 of 42
I've been breeding bengals for more than a decade. I don't guarantee that the kittens I sell will not develope FIP.
You can't make that guarantee because FIP occurs when the corona virus mutates and so far no one knows for sure why it does. There are theories that stress combined with a compromised immune system, may be the trigger.

Be aware that most cats have been exposed to the corona virus and will test positive on a titer. Very few of these cats will ever develope FIP. Exposure to the corona virus happens in catteries, multiple cats homes, vet clinics, boarding kennels, show halls, hotels that allow pets, pet stores that allow pets inside, etc. Just about anywhere, so it's irresponsible for the Vet to insist the exposure could have only happened in your home.

The responsibility for the Vet bills lies squarely on the shoulders of your clients. They bought a kitten and agreed to provide for him. That includes Vet expenses. This is especially true in light of the fact that they didn't bother to inform you that the kitten was ill until after he had been put down.

If it were me in your shoes, I would readily agree to replace the kitten at no cost, but I would make it clear that the Vet bills are their sole responsibilty.
I would replace the kitten, because it's the right thing to do, not because I was contractually obligated, which I wouldn't be, and neither are you.

Hope this helps.
post #18 of 42
Ok, if you feel you should offer another kitten as a replacement, then do so. But you don't have to reimburse them for ANY of the vet bills. That is not your obligation since the cat was healthy when you sold it.

If they don't want another kitten, you are under no obligation to do anything more and even if they take it to court, you would not be obligated.

As far as the FELV, Charlie's breeder is a vet and he does not like the vaccine and will not use it. I've heard of other breeders/owners having some problems too. All their cats are tested negative. When I was breeding, I too tested the breeding cats and cleared them - but did not use the vaccine. That was when the vaccine first came on the market and I didn't trust it.
post #19 of 42
Thread Starter 
thank you, that does help alot, any chance i can quote you to the owners kai bengals ?? one of my big frustrations in this whole situation is their vet, and im guessing the only reason he doesn't want to admit the kitten could have potentially picked up the virus from a vet clinic is because the only vet clinics the kitten has been to have been my vet clinic, and his vet clinic, my vet is perfectly comfortable stating that the kitten could have come into contact with the virus from any vet clinic, including his own, so im not really feeling too keen on their particular vet lol, however, with luck the whole thing will be resolved tonight or tomorrow
post #20 of 42
Let us know what happens
post #21 of 42
I've read that the FeLV innoculation can mutate into a corona virus, which then mutates into FIP in some cats. I've been advised to never give this innoculation to my cats for this very reason.
post #22 of 42
Thread Starter 
Ferris Cat can you provide me with links to this information?? The only thing i have read about the FelV vaccine was a lot of breeders will not garantee their cats if the FelV vac is given.
post #23 of 42
Thread Starter 
i called my vet to see if it was possible for the FelV vaccine to cause a corona virus and the response was a no, as FelV is a totally different type of virus then coronavirus
post #24 of 42
I believe that would be the intranasal FIP vaccination, which is not usually recommended by any breeders.

I am curious as to the breeds you breed. Just because I was wondering if it was a "slow maturing" or "fast maturing" breed.

My RB Smudge got FIP right after neutering. It was just too much stress on his little system, and I understand that's the way it does often happen.
post #25 of 42
Thread Starter 
i'll list them in the order that they came into our household = )

Our first cat is a female munchkin, pointed in color
Our second cat is a Male Himi
Our third cat was a ragdoll/scottish fold cross
Our last one was a female himi

The kitten that developed the FIP was a folded ear from the ragdoll/scottish fold mom, (Muffin) and the Himi dad (Sam)
I am expecting this year a litter from the Himi female (Pickles is her name) and Sam.........
Our Munchkin is just recently fixed as we got the kitten we were trying for from her and Sam, he went to the house of one of my husbands relatives, they're kinda hippy like, and they named him something really odd that i can't even remember, but every time they talk to my husband, the name makes us laugh = )

There very well could be other breeds mixed in with my cats that I am not aware of, our male for example really has more of a ragdoll like coat, so i wonder if he isn't a mix of some sort, however i LOVE his coat, it's long haired, without being so long that it gets matted if you don't brush it, really the only reason i brush it is to keep the fur off the floor and furniture, husband has allergies to cats so it helps him out if i keep the fur and dander down
post #26 of 42
Just curious as to WHY you are cross breeding? And what cats are you crossing?
post #27 of 42
Thread Starter 
I think i mentioned it in one of the previous posts ? There was a particular kitten we were trying to produce, unless do you mean by the question what is it we were thinking of producing ?
post #28 of 42
FIP is a tough one. It's not positively diagnosable and a cat can get it from anywhere. From what I understand in many cases, a cat gets it and is often gone within a couple of weeks. Since FIP is not diagnosable, you really don't even know if that's what the kitten truly had! Many, many vets jump to conclusions and are quick with this diagnosis. Too quick. I would ask for a necropsy report since that is the only truly way of diagnosing FIP and it obviously has to be after death. I'd maybe offer then the price of the cat back or another kitten but I wouldn't pay vet bills. You didn't intentionally send her a sick cat.
post #29 of 42
Yes, wanted to know what kind of cat you are trying to produce and why? You have 3-4 different kind of breeds.
post #30 of 42
Thread Starter 
My husband and i wanted a munchkin with folded ears. Longer haired, and pointed in color. We were looking at the various types of munchkin crosses that were available, and couldn't find what we were looking for. As to why there are those four particular cats, there were aspects of each cat that i was hoping would go into my view of our perfect kitten. This was meant to be a long term thing, something we would get after a few generations, however, it is something that I'm now not sure will be able to do, for a couple reasons relating to the kitten who was euthanized..... brings a couple thoughts to mind........... first of all, i wasn't emotionally prepared for how upsetting it was to hear of the kitten being euthanized, also, i feel guilt for making the owners go through such a situation, just because of something I wanted to do,
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