Bengal breeders - longhair bengals?

Granted they seem nice, but I would not want them to be called LH Bengals. If they want to call them something else and pursue it - fine. (I think that's what they are doing anyway).

To me, its pretty but you do loose that shorthair wild cat bengal look! It looks like a very large spotted longhair cat. Hate to say it but almost a spotted maine coon (don't kill me!)

I would say more Pixie Bob, GK. But the faces on both of those cats is totally Bengal... or should I say Cashmere!?!

They are very pretty. Unfortunately, Longhaired cats is where DH puts his foot down.

Face is bengal, but a quick glance seems maine coonish or pixiebob (not really famliar with them).

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Granted they seem nice, but I would not want them to be called LH Bengals. If they want to call them something else and pursue it - fine. (I think that's what they are doing anyway).

To me, its pretty but you do loose that shorthair wild cat bengal look! It looks like a very large spotted longhair cat. Hate to say it but almost a spotted maine coon (don't kill me!)

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GK,

I agree with you...call me a purist...if that term can apply to bengal breeders.

I'm ok with a new breed being assigned, that has nothing to do with bengals.
It's ok to use bengals as the foundation, but then they need to make sure there is a clear and concise distinction.
In my opinion the Toyger breeders have not done a good job at this yet. But I know they're working diligently, so I'm satisfied that, given time, the Toygers will be vastly different than the bengals and the general public won't confuse Toygers with just an inferior bengal.

I guess a Cashmere breeder has an easier road to travel, the only difference is the hair length at this point. Toygers are a whole new pattern and head structure.

I think they're very interesting. I love the Bengal face. But one of the things that excites me most about Bengals is the look of their coat. If you just scroll up to bengalbabe's signature, those coats are so sleak looking and shiney. They are begging to be touched. If the longhaired Bengal's coats kept that texture (for lack of a better term), then that would be nice. Maybe they do and I just can't tell from the pics.

(Oops. I guess it isn't a scroll up, now it's a flip back. )

Not sure how you really would keep the sleek feeling to the coat if its not a single coat - like turkish angoras. But Balinese (longhair siamese) have a sleek coat...granted bali's are really more semi-longhair and so its easier.

I've met a couple of LH F3 Bengals...an F2 mated to a Maine Coon and personally...hummm, I think the pelt does lose it's "feel". I'll try to take pics of him when next I visit the place!

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Granted they seem nice, but I would not want them to be called LH Bengals. If they want to call them something else and pursue it - fine. (I think that's what they are doing anyway).

To me, its pretty but you do loose that shorthair wild cat bengal look! It looks like a very large spotted longhair cat. Hate to say it but almost a spotted maine coon (don't kill me!)

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That's exactly what they are though. Still bengal in every way just not standard. I know what you mean though...if people are going to breed them, make them a seperate breed so were not getting all kinds of non-standard genes mixed in with our regular bengal genes. Recessives are forever! It is VERY difficult to weed out recessive genes once they are introduced!
I think they are pretty and wouldn't mind them as a pet (same goes with blues, melanistic, ect.) but don't want to breed them. I am too focused on the bengal that fits the standard.
Not to say that if a non-standard cat comes along that is exceptional and is what im looking for as far as type AND can contribute greatly to my program, that I will never use a cat like that in my breeding program. I may consider it, but I would consider it very carefully, always remebering that all the kittens will carry for that recessive gene.

Originally Posted by Abymummy

I've met a couple of LH F3 Bengals...an F2 mated to a Maine Coon and personally...hummm, I think the pelt does lose it's "feel". I'll try to take pics of him when next I visit the place!

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Since it was mixed with main coon it may not have been "pelted', not all bengals are pelted either. I have a few of them (regular bengals) that are not pelted but they fit the breed standard in a lot of other ways. I think many of these LH bengals do have pelts though and they are exceptionally soft. That's what I hear over and oer from those who have had one pop up in litters.

My breeder has had a few show up in her past litters. I don't think shes focusing on them at this time though. She has some nice pics on her site though:

http://www.rockybengals.com/cashmere_bengal_cats.htm

being breeders I can see your point. I don't breed them so I think the cashmeire look is nice. If pursued mabey they should take another name and so on. The toyger/bangle thing is an issue with a lot of breeds. Kind of like riding on another breeds coat tails, like ragdolls/raggamuffins, toyger/bangle, or cashmeire/bangle. ect.
I didn't see any maine coon resemblence, but thanks GK for pointing that out I am not real big on them, but I still like the cashmeire look any way, LOL!

Originally Posted by tiffanyjbt

My breeder has had a few show up in her past litters. I don't think shes focusing on them at this time though. She has some nice pics on her site though:

http://www.rockybengals.com/cashmere_bengal_cats.htm

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Your breeder says that some breeders are trying to get the LH added to the bengal breed standard. I HOPE this is not the case. If they are going to breed them, as others pointed out, keep it OFF of the bengal standard!

I don't think toygers are riding on the coat tails of bengals. I did quite a bit of research on toygers and the breed standard is pretty lofty to say the least. It will be a LONG, HARD, road for toyger breeders to reach thier standards, even in using bengals they still have a terribly long way to go. I don't personally think they will ever reach every goal that they have. I admire Toyger breeders because of the hard work involved in the development of that breed.

I don't mind breeders taking a certain type of cat and using it as a foundation for an entirely new breed, it's when you take an already established breed and use the non-standard cats and name them something else (eg:"Cashmere") that kind of bugs me because there's no work involved. That is truely riding on the coat tails of the bengal breed. I think if they use LH bengals for a new breed, they really should write thier own standard to work towards, that way they will have a unique breed, worthy of registration status.

Originally Posted by bengalbabe

Your breeder says that some breeders are trying to get the LH added to the bengal breed standard. I HOPE this is not the case. If they are going to breed them, as others pointed out, keep it OFF of the bengal standard!

I don't think toygers are riding on the coat tails of bengals. I did quite a bit of research on toygers and the breed standard is pretty lofty to say the least. It will be a LONG, HARD, road for toyger breeders to reach thier standards, even in using bengals they still have a terribly long way to go. I don't personally think they will ever reach every goal that they have. I admire Toyger breeders because of the hard work involved in the development of that breed.

I don't mind breeders taking a certain type of cat and using it as a foundation for an entirely new breed, it's when you take an already established breed and use the non-standard cats and name them something else (eg:"Cashmere") that kind of bugs me because there's no work involved. That is truely riding on the coat tails of the bengal breed. I think if they use LH bengals for a new breed, they really should write thier own standard to work towards, that way they will have a unique breed, worthy of registration status.

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I don't know much about either breed, and I did notice that they do have a different set of goals, I meant the LH bangles and ragdoll/ragamuffin as far as riding on the breeds coat tails, I didn't mean to put that in there I am an aweful typeist and get things out of my mind way faster then I type it, so some times I am not explaining what I am saying or I have gotten a head of my self. I was trying to say about what you said, I was mainly (trying to) say that using non-standards like LH or ragdolls (pointed or mink ragdoll) was what breeders where having a problem. Some want to add them to the standards but many of us want it to remain a blue eyed pointed breed. I wasn't meaning to put the toygers in it, where it was put (in a post) that the toygers are in the process of getting some other dirrection and will in time.

I think they're pretty stunning looking cats but my reservation would be - as has already been said - that the longer hair obscures the coat pattern which is a feature of the bengal.

I think the long haired ones are pretty in a different way. I can understand not breeding for long hair but for someone like myself who isn't a breeder they would be nice for a pet since they are occasionally showing up unwanted. Especially with the kind of price cut this breeder is giving for the long hair.

Originally Posted by bengalbabe

Your breeder says that some breeders are trying to get the LH added to the bengal breed standard. I HOPE this is not the case. If they are going to breed them, as others pointed out, keep it OFF of the bengal standard!

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I believe that page is rather old, but even if it is recent, there probably are people trying to get longhair added to the standard. I don't believe my breeder is one of those people, but I don't doubt they exist. Just like the people trying to get melanistics, blues and pink and purple plaid bengals added. People will always be around to stir the pot and add the next cutting edge ingredient (who had ever heard of Ginsing twenty years ago!)

I can understand not wanting to add a currently unwanted recessive trait to the already long 'to do' list on the bengal agenda. But what if a lot of the cats carrying for these unwanted traits have many more desirable traits to add to the breed? Like good profiles, whited tummys, better contrast or the ever elusive ocelli? (just hypothesizing) Charcoals aren't exactly a desired trait either, but they obviously bring a lot of good to a breeding program (as is evidenced in your own program). Not to mention they are beautiful, though I'm sure there are people who may disagree with that (specifically people focusing on highly rufoused cats!)

As an outsider to breeding, but one who absolutely benefits from the efforts of people like you, I find this debate and many others in the general cat fancy to be facinating! To be honest, I don't really want longhaired bengals added to the standard either. I think the aforementioned 'to do' list is long enough without adding in 'extras'. I also hope to never see blue bengals added to the standard, though I can see the argument for melanistics. And the moment someone finally breeds that pink and purple plaid bengal, you'd better believe I'll be on the waiting list!

Originally Posted by tiffanyjbt

I can understand not wanting to add a currently unwanted recessive trait to the already long 'to do' list on the bengal agenda. But what if a lot of the cats carrying for these unwanted traits have many more desirable traits to add to the breed? Like good profiles, whited tummys, better contrast or the ever elusive ocelli?

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That's why I said that I might consider using a non-standard bengal in my breeding program, but that is different than adding them to the standard.

Originally Posted by tiffanyjbt

(just hypothesizing) Charcoals aren't exactly a desired trait either, but they obviously bring a lot of good to a breeding program (as is evidenced in your own program). Not to mention they are beautiful, though I'm sure there are people who may disagree with that (specifically people focusing on highly rufoused cats!)

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Charcoals aren't really desired as far as the show ring, however you can't really compare them to non-standard bengals since they are considered brown and they are standard and eligible for championship. The same thing happended to marbles and to snow early on. When they were added to the standard, they did not do well in the show rings either. It took a few really well bred snows and marbles to bring people around.

Originally Posted by tiffanyjbt

As an outsider to breeding, but one who absolutely benefits from the efforts of people like you, I find this debate and many others in the general cat fancy to be facinating! To be honest, I don't really want longhaired bengals added to the standard either. I think the aforementioned 'to do' list is long enough without adding in 'extras'.

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agreed!