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Debarking a dog - Page 2

post #31 of 54
Her dog was an abused rescue, and while I haven't found the specific reason it was causing her some kind of throat damage, everything was tried that could be tried, but they had to stop it before she did more damage, and then continue to work with her. I remember she had scarring from her former owner's use of a shock collar, perhaps that had something to do with it, maybe they also felt they had to do it so she could stay in the home and be rehabilitated. Apparently, she is doing much better now, and is a good pet. It wasn't an overnight decision by any means.

I agreed with everyone that it isn't a desirable thing, that it shouldn't be done unless you have a really extreme reason (having exhausted all other possiblities- with the proper time and effort and professionals) to have happen, but in an extreme case like hers, possibly necessary to give the dog a chance for a decent life.

Okay, got the scoop: Excessive barking can cause throat damage, debarking won't help -Most vets will only do it if the dog is in danger of being pts, as in being declared a nuisance dog.
post #32 of 54
poor thing! what breed is the dog ??
post #33 of 54
A Boxer, if I remember correctly, perhaps a mix- usually a pretty quiet dog-high energy, but not usually a barker from what I've been reading- ours rarely, if ever barks (she is also a rescue, but except for her heart condition, we can't figure out why someone would have given her up; she's great with my now 3 yr old- My husband was wondering if she could for about a month after we got .
post #34 of 54
Oh I see. I don't know how much boxers bark as I have no expierience with them. It's just sad she had to make that decision.
post #35 of 54
I think in some very rare cases de-barking is necessary. There may also be a good reason to declaw. Yes, ive said it. Why?

Im on another cat forum, and I was reading up an old post where one of the members HAD to declaw her Devon Rex because he was scratching to the point of mutilating himself. It was not a cosmetic issue, but a serious, health and well being issue.

On another subject, I also think there are valid reasons to remove dewclaws, crop or dock. There is a member on my dog forum who had to crop her spaniels ears. Mind you it was not a fashionable crop, more like an amputation, but it was necessary for the health of the dogs. There have been numerous dogs wh have needed there tail amputated because of numerous breaks and injuries.
post #36 of 54
My mom's Border Collie Ben (RB) was debarked - NOT by her, by the people she got him from. I don't remember the details, but he was unwanted for some reason, like there was something wrong with him? So she got him for free even tho he was purebred. But yeah, they had him debarked as a puppy. When he got really excited tho, he could give this raspy half-bark. We'd always get so excited when he barked, cos it was such a rare occasion when he'd be able to actually make noise De-barking makes me so angry tho - it's just lazy human beings not bothering to train the dog properly. It's disgusting and it should be illegal.
post #37 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieKit View Post
I think in some very rare cases de-barking is necessary. There may also be a good reason to declaw. Yes, ive said it. Why?

Im on another cat forum, and I was reading up an old post where one of the members HAD to declaw her Devon Rex because he was scratching to the point of mutilating himself. It was not a cosmetic issue, but a serious, health and well being issue.
softpaws? medication?

Quote:
On another subject, I also think there are valid reasons to remove dewclaws, crop or dock. There is a member on my dog forum who had to crop her spaniels ears. Mind you it was not a fashionable crop, more like an amputation, but it was necessary for the health of the dogs. There have been numerous dogs wh have needed there tail amputated because of numerous breaks and injuries.
can you tell me what GOOD, MEDICAL reason there would be to remove a dog's voicebox so he cant express himself anymore?
post #38 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcadian girl View Post
softpaws? medication?



can you tell me what GOOD, MEDICAL reason there would be to remove a dog's voicebox so he cant express himself anymore?
I believe the reasons have all been mentioned. Even if you dont believe it, debarking is not all about laziness and lack of training. While it may be considered cruel, very rarely it is very necessary. In the case stated before, about the dog who had to be debarked because he was injuring himself, I definately see this as good reason to debark, if of course all other methods have been exhausted. Usually with a dog like this its more of a mental thing, and when they hear themselves bark they get even more riled up, and keep on barking until they are actually hurting themselves. You cut off the bark the dog no longer hears his big bad voice and eventually stops.

As for the Devon Rex, everything was also exhausted. He would manage to rip off a few of those Soft Claws and things were actually worse with them than without, because when he did manage to remove them all he** broke lose and he did so much damage to himself it was absolutely horrible. The owners did not want him on medications all his life, as they felt it would lessen the quality of life.

BTW the cat is actually more tranquil ( though I am aware in most cases it is the opposite)

Edited to add: I think its a bit harsh to say that everyone who declaws/debarks is lazy and unwilling to train
post #39 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieKit View Post
Usually with a dog like this its more of a mental thing, and when they hear themselves bark they get even more riled up, and keep on barking until they are actually hurting themselves. You cut off the bark the dog no longer hears his big bad voice and eventually stops.
Yes! That was what happened- I was racking my brain, trying to think of why the debarking stopped her dog from injuring her throat further, and last night I finally remembered- she was getting a "payoff" from barking constantly ( a habit aquired because of the abusive home), they couldn't use the no bark collar because of the abuse, the training didn't work, and she finally stopped trying to bark all the time, because there was no "payoff", and she was rehabbed into being a nice, well behaved pet.
post #40 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieKit View Post
On another subject, I also think there are valid reasons to remove dewclaws, crop or dock. There is a member on my dog forum who had to crop her spaniels ears. Mind you it was not a fashionable crop, more like an amputation, but it was necessary for the health of the dogs. There have been numerous dogs wh have needed there tail amputated because of numerous breaks and injuries.
Cropping and docking are purely cosmetic procedures, if a dog had to have their ears cropped at a later date, due to, I'm guessing chronic ear infections? that is a totally different situation, same as if a dog injured their tail and had to get it amputated. These situations are by no means comparable to the practice of cropping and docking while puppies for physical appearance
post #41 of 54
I just cringe at the thought of someone sticking something down my throat and scraping my vocal chords up. If we heard of this being done to people, there would be complete outrage.

In my years at TH, in which we take on exclusively special cases and special needs kitties, I have seen a total of 2 cats- out of hundreds and maybe thousands of cats- that had to be declawed for medical reasons. One was a poly with nails who were growing back into his paw and making it impossible to walk...and only the problem claws were removed. Another case which hasn't but MIGHT result in a declaw is a poor little girl named Gigi who has a disorder in which her skin is easily torn by normal grooming, scrathcing and playing. She's in a crate and wearing softpaws at this point, but it may not prove to be a permanent solution.

My point, basically, is that I just don't see how a medical reason would crop up that would necessitate the vocal chords being scraped, since a deformity would probably not cause pair or damage to the rest of the dog. If the dog is neurotic, then debarking isn't going to help...the dog will still try to bark, and often debarked dogs just develop scar tissue on the vocal chords and can start right on barking again. Taking away the bark doesn't comfort the dog or take away the anxiety.
post #42 of 54
Apparently, it depends on the dog and the evaluations from the behaviorists and a competent vet to determine whether or not it is medically necessary and a feasible behavior deterent for a particular dog, in a rare case such as this. For her dog, it worked. Yes, it requires a fully devoted and responsible owner to make such a decision. No, it's not a nice option, just like declawing for the reasons you stated, or amputating a tail, or a limb, or ears, as stated- these things don't happen often either, but can save the animal's life, or save them from a really poor quality life. That's the only point being made here -the same point as you're making about the declawing.

I really don't have anything else to add.
post #43 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionessrampant View Post
My point, basically, is that I just don't see how a medical reason would crop up that would necessitate the vocal chords being scraped, since a deformity would probably not cause pair or damage to the rest of the dog. If the dog is neurotic, then debarking isn't going to help...the dog will still try to bark, and often debarked dogs just develop scar tissue on the vocal chords and can start right on barking again. Taking away the bark doesn't comfort the dog or take away the anxiety.

I honestly dont see how you cannot see the reason that a debark may be necessary. If it is a mental issue, and the dog no longer hears himself barking, it will be an issued cured almost immediatly. The dog will no longer be able to hear himself bark for hours on end, so he will no longer feel the need to bark and make a nuisance of himself.

Its quite simple
post #44 of 54
I am here to say that such a procedure is not necessary and cruel. I had a rottwieler, who was scary at first glance. As a puppy, he would bark his little lungs off and we got so sick of it, but we never resorted to such a thing as getting his vocal cords snipped. Instead we did his de-barking the old fashion way. Good ole training.

Everytime he would bark, we'd ignore him. When he was quiet we'd pay attention to him. Eventually we got him to the point where even when we said speak, he would only do a huffing noise. After a little bit of dedicated training and a few bags of treats, we had a semi non-barking rottwieler. He would still bark at intruders in our yard, but normally if we told him to be quiet, he'd resort to his huffing noise, or just watch the intruder. Training can help almost any situation, including barking. That is why I think that it is so horrible to have your dog's vocal cords snipped.

If your child wouldn't shut up, would you snip thier vocal cords? I think not.
post #45 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieKit View Post
I think in some very rare cases de-barking is necessary. There may also be a good reason to declaw. Yes, ive said it. Why?

Im on another cat forum, and I was reading up an old post where one of the members HAD to declaw her Devon Rex because he was scratching to the point of mutilating himself. It was not a cosmetic issue, but a serious, health and well being issue.

On another subject, I also think there are valid reasons to remove dewclaws, crop or dock. There is a member on my dog forum who had to crop her spaniels ears. Mind you it was not a fashionable crop, more like an amputation, but it was necessary for the health of the dogs. There have been numerous dogs wh have needed there tail amputated because of numerous breaks and injuries.
I have to respectfully disagree. I honestly don't think there's a valid reason for it. but that's just me. this is a very hot topic for me as you can tell. and yes, I do see the reasons, but not all of it is a valid reason. honestly if a cat was mulitating its self with claws, why not try soft paws so they can't do that? and what about a dog trying to express himself and having part of your voice box being torn out. just think if you had your voice box taken out and couldn't scream for help. that's how I see it with de barking a dog and MOST people declaw a cat so they can't tear up their furniture and MOST people de bark a dog for their own satisfaction so you don't have to hear your dog bark 24/7. same with docking..I understand if a tail has to be amputated because of a broken tail, now that's a valid reason. but a valid reason for cropping? I think not.. Just my 2 cents. also, cats need their claws to defend themselves. and my hound barks 24/7 and I would never ever in a million years considering de barking him or any of my dogs. same as I would never ever in a million years considering de clawing my cats. It's just un neccessary and cruel!
post #46 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miagi's_Mommy View Post
I do see the reasons, but not all of it is a valid reason. honestly if a cat was mulitating its self with claws, why not try soft paws so they can't do that? and what about a dog trying to express himself and having part of your voice box being torn out. just think if you had your voice box taken out and couldn't scream for help.

I believe I stated in my previous posts that this person did try all other escapes before declawing her cat. He was medicated, put on Soft Claws etc. I honestly believe this cat had some sort of mental illness. As told by the owner, when they did put Soft Claws on him (it was a him I believe) the cat became frantic because he could not scratch, and would always manage to remove a few, and it was disasterous. Have you ever seen a Devon Rex's skin?

As for the dog I also believe it was a mental illness. Animals can suffer from mental illnesses too. What do you think causes Spaniel Rage where the dog brutally attacks you one minute and the next hes wagging his tail?

Sorry I am against declawing and debarking because 99.9% of the time its for a convenience reason, but I am REALLY against people saying that everyone who does it is just lazy and uncaring. I think that would be a bit close minded, and if these people who HAD to perform these procedures were here I think they'd feel pretty bad.
post #47 of 54
did they try any medication or anything? poor babies.
post #48 of 54
I am against declawing and debarking. IMHO If you don't want an animal that barks, don't get a dog. If you don't want an animal that scratches, don't get a cat.
post #49 of 54
Not to hijack this thread, but a few people said that Basenjis are barkless. Yes, they do not bark like other dogs, but they can make other sounds! I recall reading a story about a gentlemen who left his apartment to go to the corner store, and when he returned he found that the police had been called to his apartment because the dog had been carrying on and somebody thought he'd left a baby in the apartment by itself!

On topic, I too think that declawing and debarking is cruel if done for no reason, but can be used as a LAST RESORT to problems. That poor Devon Rex scratching his naked skin..outchee
post #50 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet72947 View Post
Not to hijack this thread, but a few people said that Basenjis are barkless. Yes, they do not bark like other dogs, but they can make other sounds! I recall reading a story about a gentlemen who left his apartment to go to the corner store, and when he returned he found that the police had been called to his apartment because the dog had been carrying on and somebody thought he'd left a baby in the apartment by itself!
Yes, people describe it as a yodel, lol.

post #51 of 54
Wow. Debarking. Horrid - it's illegal in Australia, just like declawing, under the Cruelty to Animals Act. And so it should be, fancy debarking your dog. Dogs BARK! It's what they do! And there's always a reason behind it - even if that reason is boredom. Training your dog would always be the better option - unfortunately too many people want the magic bullet, the quick fix, and can't be bothered.

And an earlier thread mentioned that someone they know used a crate as punishment. Just EXACTLY the reason why crating should be kept to a minimum - it's meant to be a safe haven for the dog, or a tool used for toilet training, not a punishment or a place to lock them all day so they can't wreck your house! Again, training, training - crating as punishment defeats the whole purpose!
post #52 of 54
I think im going to stay out of this thread for now. Even though I am against debarking (and declawing) I still cant believe so many people are so one sided that they cannot see that sometimes it is needed in very rare and extreme cases.

I've already stated 2 very good reasons for this procedure, and everyone still seems to believe only the lazy, heartless, cruel people perform these procedures. They dont seem to realize that some people make these decisions with a horrid pain in their heart, because it is a last resort.

Im outta here now
post #53 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieKit View Post
I think im going to stay out of this thread for now. Even though I am against debarking (and declawing) I still cant believe so many people are so one sided that they cannot see that sometimes it is needed in very rare and extreme cases.

I've already stated 2 very good reasons for this procedure, and everyone still seems to believe only the lazy, heartless, cruel people perform these procedures. They dont seem to realize that some people make these decisions with a horrid pain in their heart, because it is a last resort.

Im outta here now
I dont think everyone thinks the case you showed was laziness ect. but i am sure they manage things in places were debarking is illegal. thats just MO.
post #54 of 54
I had never heard of de-barking until I seen it on a movie. It was a USA oridginal with John ritter, called the colony. The gamily moved to a "perfect colony" and their dog bothered the neigbors so they took the dog with out the owners promition and had the proceedure done, and dropped the dog off all debarked! I think if my neighbor cut my dogs vocal chords, I would cut their brake lines! I have never met a dog with it done. nor would I do it.

As far as declawing (I raise cats and make new owners sign contracts that they will not do it, so I am very against it) I heard of one case where I thought it was some what exceptable. An old lady had an old cat, the lady became very diabetic, and had issues with blood clotting properly, and didn't heal well, she had several infections due to being sratched, so rather then put the cat down, or bring it to a shelter (where due to age may have been put to sleep, or gotten sick, stop eating, or got adopted and be declawed by the new family any ways, ect,) the family made her get the cat declawed. On a case like that or AIDS, and instead of getting rid of the cat? I still feel strongly about it, and feel it shouldn't be done. (I wonder if the family tried soft paws? I hadn't heard of them then, so mabey they never knew about them?) But I think the cat having a home with the old lady out weighed being homeless? But it's still hard to judge, I would probley rather find a new home for the cat, before I would have declawed.
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