Is it possible to be Calico AND Tortie?

DanyellSuzanne said:

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• danyellsuzanne
• Nov 17, 2012

 This is Lacey, would she be a torbie? she's the nicest cat in the world to me and my boyfriend, but absolutely refuses to let anyone touch her, we got her at 8 weeks and she was handled ALOT as a kitten but it seemed to happen within a month she just started hating everyone.

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• danyellsuzanne
• Nov 17, 2012

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I'd say she's a calico and tabby because she's got large blocks of red, which are definitive of calico, not tortie.






Tortie-and-white is the same thing as calico. T&B is used in the UK, Calico is used in the US.
If a cat is tortie on top, but has white on the belly and/or chest, that's called a tortico.



My cat back home, Little Missy, is an orange tabby calico

Minka said:

If a cat is tortie on top, but has white on the belly and/or chest, that's called a tortico.

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There is no such thing as tortico. It's tortie with white. And the orange tabby calico (seriously?) is also tortie with white (not a tabby, there is also no 'orange' color in cats).

Minka said:

My cat back home, Little Missy, is an orange tabby calico

 

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Minka, Little Missy is beautiful, she looks exactly like a male (yes I said male) calico we had some years ago, named Timson, he was our wierd little white kitten making love bug

missymotus said:

Lacey is a tortie tabby and white if you live outside the US. 

The US would call her a torbie and white. 

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if you're REALLY awesome, like moi, you would also call her a cabbie aka calico tabby

to everyone else, there cannot be a calico/tortie mixed as they are the same thing genetically, tortie simply lacks the white.

calicos and torties  are also known by some folk in the states as "blank canvas" or puzzle piece cats, because they can come in all kinds of colors, and patterns, there is no set pattern to which the colors would fall into place, part of what, to me makes calicos and torties so attractive.

NorthernGlow said:

There is no such thing as tortico. It's tortie with white. And the orange tabby calico (seriously?) is also tortie with white (not a tabby, there is also no 'orange' color in cats).

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in the states, is what they are called. people who are not breeders do not use "breeder" terms, I get so sick of breeders saying what we none breeders call cats is wrong.

a tortoiseshell with tabby markings in the states is called a "torbie" tortie tabby, it's called slang.

NorthernGlow said:

My cat back home, Little Missy, is an orange tabby calico

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There is no such thing as tortico. It's tortie with white. And the orange tabby calico (seriously?) is also tortie with white (not a tabby, there is also no 'orange' color in cats).

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If you want to be all picky, then yes, 'orange' cats are technically called red. But they don't look red, and we are talking about moggies, so what's your point? Also, right here it talks about 'patched tabbies' and 'calibys', if you want to get specific. http://www.fanciers.com/other-faqs/colors.html

Little Missy is NOT tortie. She has very distinct red and black areas that are distinctive of calicos.

Gibbly said:

Minka said:

My cat back home, Little Missy, is an orange tabby calico


 

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Minka, Little Missy is beautiful, she looks exactly like a male (yes I said male) calico we had some years ago, named Timson, he was our wierd little white kitten making love bug

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Haha, maybe they were secret soul mates

Gibbly said:

NorthernGlow said:

There is no such thing as tortico. It's tortie with white. And the orange tabby calico (seriously?) is also tortie with white (not a tabby, there is also no 'orange' color in cats).

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in the states, is what they are called. people who are not breeders do not use "breeder" terms, I get so sick of breeders saying what we none breeders call cats is wrong.

a tortoiseshell with tabby markings in the states is called a "torbie" tortie tabby, it's called slang.

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^THANK YOU

Gibbly said:

in the states, is what they are called. people who are not breeders do not use "breeder" terms, I get so sick of breeders saying what we none breeders call cats is wrong.

a tortoiseshell with tabby markings in the states is called a "torbie" tortie tabby, it's called slang.

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This is 'Breeders Corner'.

Torbie is an official term in some associations (TICA for example), it's not slang. I never said torbie isn't a correct term.

Minka said:

If you want to be all picky, then yes, 'orange' cats are technically called red. But they don't look red, and we are talking about moggies, so what's your point? Also, right here it talks about 'patched tabbies' and 'calibys', if you want to get specific. http://www.fanciers.com/other-faqs/colors.html
Little Missy is NOT tortie. She has very distinct red and black areas that are distinctive of calicos.
 

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Again, this is the Breeders Corners, so my point is to assume people would respect that and not spread unofficial terms to confuse people. And the link you posted doesn't seem to be any official registry so that's like linking to wikipedia..

Over here and also in parts of US Little Missy is called tortie with white. We don't have calicoes here, only parts of US use the term.

this may be the "breeders" corner, but we are from all over the world, for example, you are in Finland, where as I don't even know where Finland is I am from the states, cat colors in your corner of the world are called completely different things than they are here, I've come across several US breeders who call their calico cats calico, because that is the accepted term here, tortie and white is the accepted term in Europe. It doesn't mean "calico" is an incorrect term, because here it's not.

orange cats are called "red" but nobody I know calls them red, to me, there are red cats and "orange" cats, for example, one of my cats kittens is a dark, "burnt" orange color, he is what I would consider "red" but his sister is "orange" the color of a pumpkin. so.
 

Gibbly said:

orange cats are called "red" but nobody I know calls them red, to me, there are red cats and "orange" cats, for example, one of my cats kittens is a dark, "burnt" orange color, he is what I would consider "red" but his sister is "orange" the color of a pumpkin. so.

 

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Basically the official name for 'orange' cats is red. So an orange coloured tabby would be officially a red tabby.
It's kind of like how the most common colour for dachshunds is "red", but that colour actually looks like more of a burnt umber.

NorthernGlow said:

Again, this is the Breeders Corners, so my point is to assume people would respect that and not spread unofficial terms to confuse people. And the link you posted doesn't seem to be any official registry so that's like linking to wikipedia..
Over here and also in parts of US Little Missy is called tortie with white. We don't have calicoes here, only parts of US use the term.

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I know this is the breeders corner, but honestly I think this post could be lumped in with the people who ask what breed their cat is. Most people don't know enough to know that kind of post doesn't need to put here, just like asking about colouring on a moggie. If someone goes around saying their moggy is a cali-torbie-tabby, it won't make a difference in the world.
My point is not to put down people who don't know much about breeding and colouring... (I know hardly anything myself) but that there's no need to get so... puffed up about non-technical terms when it comes to moggies.

I thought Fanciers was some huge cat magazine company that specializes in information about cat breeds... ????

Like I've said and other sources have confirmed, tortie-and-white is the same thing as calico. I however, live in an area that uses the term calico. Therefor, it doesn't matter what other areas use, where She resides, she is a calico tabby because she has the distinctive orange and black of a calico, but also the markings of a mackerel tabby.

Gibbly said:

this may be the "breeders" corner, but we are from all over the world, for example, you are in Finland, where as I don't even know where Finland is

I am from the states, cat colors in your corner of the world are called completely different things than they are here, I've come across several US breeders who call their calico cats calico, because that is the accepted term here, tortie and white is the accepted term in Europe. It doesn't mean "calico" is an incorrect term, because here it's not.

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I did not say calico is an incorrect term either, it is accepted in CFA (which was just discussed in another tortie-related topic here). I might be from Finland (which is in Northern Europe, bordered by Sweden, Norway and Russia) but I actually breed under TICA, which is an US based registry. (I have to deal directly with their US office when I register kittens for example). The term 'tortie with white is used everywhere in the world, also in US (like TICA & FIFé), whereas 'calico' is only used in parts of US (only recognized by CFA).

Minka said:

 where She resides, she is a calico tabby because she has the distinctive orange and black of a calico, but also the markings of a mackerel tabby.

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Calico+tabby would be called a torbie or tortie tabby (with white). Calico refers to a solid, non-agouti=not tabby cat. A cat cannot be solid and tabby at the same time. Genetically the cat is not a tabby, she's just showing ghost pattern which is common for red color. The black parts however are solid black, so you can tell she's not actually tabby.

*eta to avoid confusion* DanyellSuzanne's cat is a tortie tabby with white (or torbie with white), the tortie with white (calico) was the one you posted a pic of.

Sorry, I though I was being helpful and trying to correct some of the misinformation given here. I wasn't aware that breeders aren't allowed to reply if someone shows a pic of their moggie. I thought moggies have the same rights to be called with correct terms as pedigreed cats.

I'll leave you to it then.

Minka said:

I know this is the breeders corner, but honestly I think this post could be lumped in with the people who ask what breed their cat is. Most people don't know enough to know that kind of post doesn't need to put here, just like asking about colouring on a moggie. If someone goes around saying their moggy is a cali-torbie-tabby, it won't make a difference in the world.
My point is not to put down people who don't know much about breeding and colouring... (I know hardly anything myself) but that there's no need to get so... puffed up about non-technical terms when it comes to moggies.
I thought Fanciers was some huge cat magazine company that specializes in information about cat breeds... ????
Like I've said and other sources have confirmed, tortie-and-white is the same thing as calico. I however, live in an area that uses the term calico. Therefor, it doesn't matter what other areas use, where She resides, she is a calico tabby because she has the distinctive orange and black of a calico, but also the markings of a mackerel tabby.

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H Minka

There are actually some links at the very top of the forum that already answer most of the questions that get posted on the Breeders Forum, such as  "what breed is my cat'  There are also forum rules and guidelines.  It says 'please read before posting'  Members are expected to know and follow the guidelines for posting in a particular forum.

So it gets a bit frustrating when the same question is asked over and over again that has been answered over and over again.  Then the professionals who are only answering in an honest manner are called all  sorts of things, including WRONG!

To add insult to injury...there is this false notion that the US is somehow significantly different than other countries when it comes to cats and cat breeding!   As if the pros from other nations somehow aren't able to answer questions 'because they aren't from the US'. We really aren't any different here in the states other than a few details that don't matter. 

People here just aren't typically as informed in the subject as is evidenced here in the forum.

But to imply that professional breeders can't answer an American Cat question is insulting.  These pros are in touch with the world and know 'our' system far better than the average American knows their own  As is evidenced in far too many non pros who think they are providing 'factual' information.

IMO, it is not the intention of the 'Breeders' forum to be harassed for posting factual information regarding the topic at hand, nor should it be.  These folks are taking time away from their own schedule to answer your questions, BTW.

Minka said:

I thought Fanciers was some huge cat magazine company that specializes in information about cat breeds... ????

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Incorrect. Cat Fancy is a magazine and also the term for the pedigree cat world, and Fanciers are those in the cat fancy

But I suppose this post is again not wanted as its providing correct information. The reason why so few breeders even bother to post here these days.

Gibbly said:

this may be the "breeders" corner, but we are from all over the world, for example, you are in Finland, where as I don't even know where Finland is

tortie and white is the accepted term in Europe

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It's not just Europe, it's the rest of the world.

Gibbly said:

...I've come across several US breeders who call their calico cats calico, because that is the accepted term here, tortie and white is the accepted term in Europe. It doesn't mean "calico" is an incorrect term, because here it's not.

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Gibbly these are BYB (back yard breeders) 

Where exactly are these several "breeders" you claim to have come across and what is their name and registry?  How many registered breeders do you even have in your state?

Don't expect these shady BYB and kitten mill folks to be giving you correct 'facts'.  They simply don't know the correct facts to begin with. 

So you are posting incorrect facts on the Breeders Forum where factual information is expected.

I think it depends on who you ask and what association you are talking about whether "calico" and "tortie" are both used and what the difference is between them (what the terms mean)... I know in TICA they use the term "tortoiseshell and white" for example and they don't even use the term calico at all IIRC...

So you can't really claim that a cat is definitely NOT a tortie and is really a calico because that would depend on which definitions you are going by.

Generally the cat associations call a cat that is both tabby and tortie either torbie or patched tabby, at least in the US...

For example my cat is registered/shown in TICA as "brown ticked torbie and white" -- you can see her photo below. Her tabby markings are a little less pronounced since she has the ticked tabby markings rather than the more common mackerel stripes. Although she does have stripes on her head/legs since she is a random-bred DSH so her ticking is not as perfect as a cat bred for a ticked coat like an Abyssinian would have.

Also, a cat with tabby markings only in the red parts of the coat is just a calico or tortie, not a torbie/patched tabby because all red cats have tabby markings normally. In order to be a tortie/patched tabby they must have the tabby markings in the other color.

In the UK there is no such thing as a calico cat, either in the GCCF (the main registry) or 'on the street' and genetically that is appropriate.  The two are both (almost always*) female cats which have an Orange gene on one of their X chromosones.  During early development one X gets turned off, so the colour of fur descended from each cell depends on which X was turned off.  If the cat also has the white spotting gene this turning off happens earlier, so you get bigger patches of fur and hence splashes of colour rather than mingling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-inactivation

The amount of white is variable, if it's a small amount the patches seem to be smaller.

Because the inactivation process is random, identical tortie & white twins will have different patterns.

You can also just about always see a tabby pattern running through the red or cream (ginger) patches even when the other patches are black**.  That's because red / cream fur has a variation of the normal melanin and the mechanism that stops the tabby pattern showing on black doesn't work.

If the black** is tabby as well then in the UK we call that a tortie-tabby.

*tortie males occur occationally.  Some are XXY males - Klinefelters in humans - and are usually infertile.  Others are mosaics and are usually fertile, and there might be other mechanisms I don't know about.

**black - or chocolate or cinnamon or blue or lilac or fawn or caramel.

OrientalSlave said:

*tortie males occur occationally.  Some are XXY males - Klinefelters in humans - and are usually infertile.  Others are mosaics and are usually fertile, and there might be other mechanisms I don't know about.

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Very interesting, so they are basically a hermaphrodite then, is that right?