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Is it possible to be Calico AND Tortie? - Page 2

post #31 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibbly View Post

this may be the "breeders" corner, but we are from all over the world, for example, you are in Finland, where as I don't even know where Finland is jaw-dropping.gif I am from the states, cat colors in your corner of the world are called completely different things than they are here, I've come across several US breeders who call their calico cats calico, because that is the accepted term here, tortie and white is the accepted term in Europe. It doesn't mean "calico" is an incorrect term, because here it's not.

I did not say calico is an incorrect term either, it is accepted in CFA (which was just discussed in another tortie-related topic here). I might be from Finland (which is in Northern Europe, bordered by Sweden, Norway and Russia) but I actually breed under TICA, which is an US based registry. (I have to deal directly with their US office when I register kittens for example). The term 'tortie with white is used everywhere in the world, also in US (like TICA & FIFé), whereas 'calico' is only used in parts of US (only recognized by CFA).

post #32 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minka View Post
 where She resides, she is a calico tabby because she has the distinctive orange and black of a calico, but also the markings of a mackerel tabby.

Calico+tabby would be called a torbie or tortie tabby (with white). Calico refers to a solid, non-agouti=not tabby cat. A cat cannot be solid and tabby at the same time. Genetically the cat is not a tabby, she's just showing ghost pattern which is common for red color. The black parts however are solid black, so you can tell she's not actually tabby.

 

*eta to avoid confusion* DanyellSuzanne's cat is a tortie tabby with white (or torbie with white), the tortie with white (calico) was the one you posted a pic of.


Edited by NorthernGlow - 11/18/12 at 9:45am
post #33 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minka View Post

My point is not to put down people who don't know much about breeding and colouring... (I know hardly anything myself) but that there's no need to get so... puffed up about non-technical terms when it comes to moggies.

Sorry, I though I was being helpful and trying to correct some of the misinformation given here. I wasn't aware that breeders aren't allowed to reply if someone shows a pic of their moggie. I thought moggies have the same rights to be called with correct terms as pedigreed cats.

I'll leave you to it then.

post #34 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minka View Post


I know this is the breeders corner, but honestly I think this post could be lumped in with the people who ask what breed their cat is. Most people don't know enough to know that kind of post doesn't need to put here, just like asking about colouring on a moggie. If someone goes around saying their moggy is a cali-torbie-tabby, it won't make a difference in the world.
My point is not to put down people who don't know much about breeding and colouring... (I know hardly anything myself) but that there's no need to get so... puffed up about non-technical terms when it comes to moggies.
I thought Fanciers was some huge cat magazine company that specializes in information about cat breeds... ????
Like I've said and other sources have confirmed, tortie-and-white is the same thing as calico. I however, live in an area that uses the term calico. Therefor, it doesn't matter what other areas use, where She resides, she is a calico tabby because she has the distinctive orange and black of a calico, but also the markings of a mackerel tabby.

H Minka

 

There are actually some links at the very top of the forum that already answer most of the questions that get posted on the Breeders Forum, such as  "what breed is my cat'  There are also forum rules and guidelines.  It says 'please read before posting'  Members are expected to know and follow the guidelines for posting in a particular forum.

 

So it gets a bit frustrating when the same question is asked over and over again that has been answered over and over again.  Then the professionals who are only answering in an honest manner are called all  sorts of things, including WRONG!

 

To add insult to injury...there is this false notion that the US is somehow significantly different than other countries when it comes to cats and cat breeding!   As if the pros from other nations somehow aren't able to answer questions 'because they aren't from the US'. We really aren't any different here in the states other than a few details that don't matter. 

 

People here just aren't typically as informed in the subject as is evidenced here in the forum.

 

But to imply that professional breeders can't answer an American Cat question is insulting.  These pros are in touch with the world and know 'our' system far better than the average American knows their own dontknow.gif As is evidenced in far too many non pros who think they are providing 'factual' information.

 

IMO, it is not the intention of the 'Breeders' forum to be harassed for posting factual information regarding the topic at hand, nor should it be.  These folks are taking time away from their own schedule to answer your questions, BTW.


Edited by TobyTyler - 11/18/12 at 10:19am
post #35 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minka View Post

I thought Fanciers was some huge cat magazine company that specializes in information about cat breeds... ????

Incorrect. Cat Fancy is a magazine and also the term for the pedigree cat world, and Fanciers are those in the cat fancy

But I suppose this post is again not wanted as its providing correct information. The reason why so few breeders even bother to post here these days.
post #36 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibbly View Post

this may be the "breeders" corner, but we are from all over the world, for example, you are in Finland, where as I don't even know where Finland is jaw-dropping.gif

tortie and white is the accepted term in Europe


It's not just Europe, it's the rest of the world.
post #37 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibbly View Post

...I've come across several US breeders who call their calico cats calico, because that is the accepted term here, tortie and white is the accepted term in Europe. It doesn't mean "calico" is an incorrect term, because here it's not.

 

Gibbly these are BYB (back yard breeders) 

 

Where exactly are these several "breeders" you claim to have come across and what is their name and registry?  How many registered breeders do you even have in your state?

 

Don't expect these shady BYB and kitten mill folks to be giving you correct 'facts'.  They simply don't know the correct facts to begin with. 

 

So you are posting incorrect facts on the Breeders Forum where factual information is expected.

post #38 of 52

I think it depends on who you ask and what association you are talking about whether "calico" and "tortie" are both used and what the difference is between them (what the terms mean)... I know in TICA they use the term "tortoiseshell and white" for example and they don't even use the term calico at all IIRC...

So you can't really claim that a cat is definitely NOT a tortie and is really a calico because that would depend on which definitions you are going by.

 

Generally the cat associations call a cat that is both tabby and tortie either torbie or patched tabby, at least in the US...

 

For example my cat is registered/shown in TICA as "brown ticked torbie and white" -- you can see her photo below. Her tabby markings are a little less pronounced since she has the ticked tabby markings rather than the more common mackerel stripes. Although she does have stripes on her head/legs since she is a random-bred DSH so her ticking is not as perfect as a cat bred for a ticked coat like an Abyssinian would have.

 

Also, a cat with tabby markings only in the red parts of the coat is just a calico or tortie, not a torbie/patched tabby because all red cats have tabby markings normally. In order to be a tortie/patched tabby they must have the tabby markings in the other color.

 

 

 

post #39 of 52

In the UK there is no such thing as a calico cat, either in the GCCF (the main registry) or 'on the street' and genetically that is appropriate.  The two are both (almost always*) female cats which have an Orange gene on one of their X chromosones.  During early development one X gets turned off, so the colour of fur descended from each cell depends on which X was turned off.  If the cat also has the white spotting gene this turning off happens earlier, so you get bigger patches of fur and hence splashes of colour rather than mingling.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-inactivation

 

The amount of white is variable, if it's a small amount the patches seem to be smaller.

 

Because the inactivation process is random, identical tortie & white twins will have different patterns.

 

You can also just about always see a tabby pattern running through the red or cream (ginger) patches even when the other patches are black**.  That's because red / cream fur has a variation of the normal melanin and the mechanism that stops the tabby pattern showing on black doesn't work.

 

If the black** is tabby as well then in the UK we call that a tortie-tabby.

 

*tortie males occur occationally.  Some are XXY males - Klinefelters in humans - and are usually infertile.  Others are mosaics and are usually fertile, and there might be other mechanisms I don't know about.

 

**black - or chocolate or cinnamon or blue or lilac or fawn or caramel.

post #40 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrientalSlave View Post

 

*tortie males occur occationally.  Some are XXY males - Klinefelters in humans - and are usually infertile.  Others are mosaics and are usually fertile, and there might be other mechanisms I don't know about.

 

 

Very interesting, so they are basically a hermaphrodite then, is that right? 

post #41 of 52

XXY is not a hermaphrodite.  The sex organs are male, there are no female sex organs unless they are intersex as well, which would be rarity heaped on further rarity.

post #42 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrientalSlave View Post

XXY is not a hermaphrodite.  The sex organs are male, there are no female sex organs unless they are intersex as well, which would be rarity heaped on further rarity.

So they are just mostly sterile then.

 

I thought Kleinfelters Syndrome had both male and female secondary sexual development, just under developed, and these males can sometimes have fully developed breasts.  Thanks for that clarification.

 

I have never heard of an intersex cat, that's why I asked. Has anyone actually seen one?.  It seems like it would be hard to tell in a cat without genetic testing?

post #43 of 52

I think an intersex cat would be noticed when they are neutered, or possibly afterwards if some internal ovarian or testicular tissue was left behind.

 

In humans, XXY individuals usually identify as male and whilst they are more likely to have some breast development than XY men, I'm sure we all know guys who have 'moobs' - man boobs....  Or men with rather feminine wide hips & knock knees, but they are normal XY men.  I gather diagnosis is often not made until puberty.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome

 

So, if cats are like humans, the main sign of an XXY male cat would be if it's a tortie.  We normally neuter male cats before puberty so of course they don't have the development testosterone produces in an entire...  biggrin.gif

post #44 of 52
I know a dog who's intersexed, they had to basically do both a spay and a neuter at the same time because she had both types of organs.
post #45 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrientalSlave View Post

I think an intersex cat would be noticed when they are neutered, or possibly afterwards if some internal ovarian or testicular tissue was left behind.

 

 

pi_lightbulb.gifdoh2.gif ...Thank you laughing02.gif


Edited by TobyTyler - 11/19/12 at 3:32pm
post #46 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrientalSlave View Post

I'm sure we all know guys who have 'moobs' - man boobs.... 

 

yeah.gif   flail.gif

post #47 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibbly View Post

for example, you are in Finland, where as I don't even know where Finland is jaw-dropping.gif I am from the states

 

 

Off topic, but I wouldn't admit that too freely in the future. The rest of the world already thinks America is full of people who don't know about anything outside of our borders.

post #48 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanyellSuzanne View Post


 This is Lacey, would she be a torbie? she's the nicest cat in the world to me and my boyfriend, but absolutely refuses to let anyone touch her, we got her at 8 weeks and she was handled ALOT as a kitten but it seemed to happen within a month she just started hating everyone.
Her color/pattern in this picture looks very much like two of my cats, except mine don't have any white. The official CFA color designation is brown patched mackerel tabby. Yours would be brown patched mackerel tabby and white. I believe the "patched tabby" in CFA is the same as "torbie" in TICA. CFA does not have a "torbie" desgination as far as I know.
post #49 of 52

Yeah I think that's what it would be in CFA... I go by what they call the colors/patterns in TICA for my cats because it's hard to say "brown ticked patched tabby" ;) (and white) and since CFA doesn't treat the Household pet cats like the purebreds, they don't truly 'register' them and they don't get points/titles. So I've mostly done TICA shows with my own pets, and I use their designations when referring to my cats colors since TICA is what my cats are registered with. I actually started with CFA shows when Roxy and Church were kittens but once I learned more about showing I switched to TICA with my younger kittens, who all have now earned titles (Church and Roxy didn't though because they stopped showing at 8 months).

Well, except for Roxy who is my Maine Coon, since her breeder uses CFA registration she was registered with CFA first and then I did TICA registration on my own, but she's solid black so I'm pretty sure her color is called the same thing in any registry.

post #50 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekochan View Post

Yeah I think that's what it would be in CFA... I go by what they call the colors/patterns in TICA for my cats because it's hard to say "brown ticked patched tabby" wink.gif (and white) and since CFA doesn't treat the Household pet cats like the purebreds, they don't truly 'register' them and they don't get points/titles. So I've mostly done TICA shows with my own pets, and I use their designations when referring to my cats colors since TICA is what my cats are registered with. I actually started with CFA shows when Roxy and Church were kittens but once I learned more about showing I switched to TICA with my younger kittens, who all have now earned titles (Church and Roxy didn't though because they stopped showing at 8 months).
Well, except for Roxy who is my Maine Coon, since her breeder uses CFA registration she was registered with CFA first and then I did TICA registration on my own, but she's solid black so I'm pretty sure her color is called the same thing in any registry.
I actually started in CFA with my Household Pets partly because the whole TICA process sounded too complicated for me. Also, partly because there are very few TICA shows close to me. CFA has started (or restarted a very old program) registering HHPs in the last year. There is a push on to start awarding titles as well, but I suspect that's still several years away. Most regions do track points and recognize Regional Winners as well, even without other titles.
post #51 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldyCat View Post

There is a push on to start awarding titles as well, but I suspect that's still several years away. Most regions do track points and recognize Regional Winners as well, even without other titles.

As they should, here domestics get different titles ours are gemstones like Ruby, Emerald

Any cat being shown should be eligible for titles and awards, so I hope that changes for you over there
post #52 of 52
This thread has been heavily edited. Again, let me remind you of one of the guidelines of the Breeders Forum:
Quote:
Nor is it appropriate to try and belittle someone or otherwise try to flame them for something they have posted.

and one of the forum rules:
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There is always room for different opinions, however, intolerance, bigotry, and religious ridicule will not be tolerated.


Some of you seem to be having issues with following these rules. If you can't abide by them, perhaps this isn't the site for you. I'm sure there are plenty of other forums that would welcome your type of behavior. This isn't one of them.
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