Amen. Someone (other than King's College) ought to develop a carnivore nutrition program.
-
Too many ads? Join our community of cat lovers now to reduce ads by 90%! Click here to join for free!
Vet student discussing grain-free and raw foods
- Thread starter pinkdagger
- Start Date
Oh my gosh. I just went over there for a look and got so angry, I had to leave. Someone was advised that feeding Purina is a good way to save money since it is just as good as the Merricks they are currently feeding.
Last edited:
Don't even get me started on this whole aspect of things. Rx pet food companies pour millions of dollars into vet schools. They've tapped into a vulnerability with universities and with students and it's sickening. Here's just one example of MANY:
Hill’s Pet Nutrition Inc. Supports Several Nutrition Education Programs at UC Davis
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/whatsnew/article2.cfm?id=1375
Although the above article may seem old, the financial pledge would have just ended in 2010.
One thing she keeps saying is that she would prefer that people spend their money on diagnostic bloodwork and other vet procedures rather than expensive food. But it's not an either/or situation.
I can pretty much guarantee that the people who are refusing bloodwork/other vet care for financial reasons are not the ones feeding their pets premium food. And those who are feeding their pets premium food and refusing bloodwork/other vet procedures aren't refusing those things for financial reasons (even if that's the excuse they give). They simply aren't seeing the value of the recommended procedures, and it's the vet's responsibility to explain the procedures in a way that shows their value.
I can pretty much guarantee that the people who are refusing bloodwork/other vet care for financial reasons are not the ones feeding their pets premium food. And those who are feeding their pets premium food and refusing bloodwork/other vet procedures aren't refusing those things for financial reasons (even if that's the excuse they give). They simply aren't seeing the value of the recommended procedures, and it's the vet's responsibility to explain the procedures in a way that shows their value.
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2013
- Messages
- 1,437
- Purraise
- 179
Clearly this person is regurgitating a lot of what she is learning in class as her comments are classic text-book responses. It's not surprising really, it is what it is, but, she really should be using quotes or citing her references, rather than passing off this information as her own. She is not a vet, yet, and has no special training. As with anything or anyone purporting to be an expert on the internet, people should be taking what is said with a grain of salt, and doing their own research.
http://healthypets.mercola.com
It's a site with a HUGE article collection. Every few days another group of 3 articles is issued. She is constantly writing about and pressing tge issue of species-appropriate diets for both dogs and cats, so if you go to the archive it won't take you long to find some good articles to present to this vet student.
Awesome you are doing this. I wouldn't have the patience.
I tried to read the rest of then page since I was too tired yesterday (finals). I had to stop when she mentioned the abrasive action of kibble being helpful to slow tartar buildup.
She says she's in the rural south, I can't help but to wonder where? I have a prejudice against my state's vet school. Sorry, but true. I saw and heard too much. Whatev's.
I had to put up with a LOT in nursing school. Cats are bad. They're dirty. The litter box is loaded with pathogens that will kill you and your unborn child. Raw diets were created by people who want to kill you and your unborn child. And I'm only MILDLY exaggerating. I did my research, smiled and kept my mouth shut. When a friend or even a patient asked me about raw, I direct them here or to Dr. Pierson's website. I STRESS to them not to feed cooked bone. Guess what they do? "Peaches, my dog looks so good now, I fed only raw chicken breasts and leftover bones from work (cooked)." That isn't what I said, and please fix that diet pronto. I can understand why many vets "Just Say No" to raw diets. Sometimes people do NOT listen. Furthermore, some of these people SHOULD know better due to their education. But some of the dumbest people I know have letters behind their name.
She says she's in the rural south, I can't help but to wonder where? I have a prejudice against my state's vet school. Sorry, but true. I saw and heard too much. Whatev's.
I had to put up with a LOT in nursing school. Cats are bad. They're dirty. The litter box is loaded with pathogens that will kill you and your unborn child. Raw diets were created by people who want to kill you and your unborn child. And I'm only MILDLY exaggerating. I did my research, smiled and kept my mouth shut. When a friend or even a patient asked me about raw, I direct them here or to Dr. Pierson's website. I STRESS to them not to feed cooked bone. Guess what they do? "Peaches, my dog looks so good now, I fed only raw chicken breasts and leftover bones from work (cooked)." That isn't what I said, and please fix that diet pronto. I can understand why many vets "Just Say No" to raw diets. Sometimes people do NOT listen. Furthermore, some of these people SHOULD know better due to their education. But some of the dumbest people I know have letters behind their name.
UC Davis is Dr. Pierson's alma mater. And that reminds me of something:
OP, here's something you can put in that Reddit thread -
http://catinfo.org/?link=origin
It's the link to Dr. Pierson's explanation of why she started her website. i would specifically post the following quotes (parts are bolded that I personally feel cannot be emphasized enough!):
I would also ask Ms. Vet Student to read through Pierson's homemade diet page and give her opinion on a diet formulated by a vet with over 30 years in the profession:
http://catinfo.org/?link=makingcatfood
I didn't read far enough into the thread (blah-de-blah-de-blah posts tend to put me to sleep) to see if she addressed the dry food-FLUTD connection, but I would ask her her opinion on this as well:
http://catinfo.org/?link=urinarytracthealth
Last edited:
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #29
Alright guys, I'm gonna post the responses we got and then grab whatever wasn't addressed (I linked her to catinfo's index page in my first post) and fire 'em back at her. I know things like this can be kind of painful, lol. I figure it's nice to have discussion, and even the most heated and one-sided of discussions is beneficial because whether we learn something new, I as an individual learn something new (which I always do here), commenters or lurkers of the thread learn something new, or the OP on Reddit learns something new, I think there's no downside. If we can make people think and question what they know or think they know about nutrition, we're doing a good thing!
First, we got a PM from someone regarding genetics who may or may not be joining us in the forums at some point as I've given them the link:
First, we got a PM from someone regarding genetics who may or may not be joining us in the forums at some point as I've given them the link:
Now from the OP of Reddit:
Hey. Back. I wasn't saying that cats' diet nowadays are preventing these diseases; I was saying that these diets aren't the cause of their increased prevalence. Increased numbers of cats reaching older age is. Therefore, you can't use the argument "cat's don't get these diseases in the wild" as a reason for raw diets being superior, because feral cats don't get old enough to get these diseases to begin with. There isn't a causal link between the two. There is a causal link, however, between increased obesity in our cats and increased prevalence of certain disease. We KNOW that happens!
I'm not sure if I'm expressing this properly. Essentially, A) Cats in the wild eat birds/rodents/etc. Domesticated cats eat prepared cat food. B) Cats in the wild live 3-4 years. Cats in captivity live, say, 11-15 years. C) Cats in the wild don't get diabetes and dental disease. Cats in captivity more often do.
Can you say A, diet, causes B, increased age or lack thereof? No. I wasn't saying that! We can say, however, that B, increased age, is correlated with C, increased prevalence of disease. More cats reaching older age = more cats getting diseases that occur in old age.
The major risk factor for diabetes in cats is obesity. Any vet would say that a trim cat on Purina is less likely to get diabetes than a fat cat on an expensive grain-free diet. Trim cat on Purina vs trim cat on the expensive diet? You can't say. Feeding grain in the diet isn't the reason your cat is fat; too many calories and not enough activity is.
As another example of disease not caused by "grains/fllers" - arthritis. Obesity, as well as simple age-related degeneration, increases prevalence for arthritis. More older cats + more fat cats = more arthritis. Your cat doesn't need protein to build bone. It needs minerals!
Now, the claim of "inferior protein sources" sounds scary, but as long as there are the right amount and composition of essential amino acids, protein is all broken down and digested the same way. What's the difference if a cat gets 100% of its protein from animal sources or 70-30 from meat/plants? While yes, there are certain amino acids that are only provided in animal proteins, as long as a cat gets enough of those it can convert any other amino acids it gets into the ones it needs. I am in agreement that cats need a high protein-diet, excepting certain diseases. That is absolutely true. But, bringing it back to the main topic of the board, grain in and of itself is not bad for your cat, and while cats can do great with all-animal protein diets if you're willing and able to shell out the $$$, you are not a poor pet owner or harming your pet if you feed it a commercial food (again, allergies and certain disease states may need special consideration). If you're not happy feeding your cat a less expensive protein source, then feed the expensive stuff! But do'nt knock pet owners who do (not saying you do, just in general)!
I guess in conclusion, in clinical practice the main preventable problems we see are more lifestyle related - low activity, feeding too much - rather than related to feeding grains in the diet. That's all I'm saying!
Oh, and things I forgot when reading your original post again. It looks like you've done your homework! You're right - certain things that are condemned for human consumption (doesn't mean that they're inedible, just condemned) are allowed into the food chain. Any downer cow is not allowed into the food chain as an extra strict precaution against BSE. That will typically go into the animal food chain, excepting the brain of course. A cow that is too thin also won't go into the human food chain. Is it still edible? Yes. So that goes into animal foods as well. I come from a very agricultural, rural community where a lot of people hunt and live economically - and this is just my opinion, but I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't waste the gift these animals have given us if we can help it. Food safety is a whole other discussion, though, and one that I definitely do enjoy talking about, though as I'm getting sleepy I think I'll just stop there.
And you're right. In terms of quality of the meat, a $4 organic/natural/insert qualifier here is definitely going to contain more expensive protein sources than 9 lives, which does have a lot more corn. If you're willing to pay for it, then it's there for you! That's the great (and often ridiculously overwhelming) part about having so many pet food options nowadays.
I don't think this post has any other purpose besides giving you the virtual thumbs' up, friend
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #30
Integrative vets would be the ideal! It does sound like she and the other vet in the thread are all for responsible raw feeding, but they don't want to rely on owners who do a terrible job of making a balanced diet, and the other vet did say they found the raw feeders they've encountered have fumbled their way through appointments, lied about what they fed, and that they've seen too many pets suffering from unbalanced diets to say on a broad scale that raw feeding is better. It requires too much time, money, and effort for the lay person (which I totally agree -- the effort is where so many people lack, which is why commercialism is able to win over these people because it makes their lives easy).
I could tell right away that was the case too though. BUT! If we throw the facts at her, she could be one of the vets who gets licensed and decides to be open and informative to people who don't want commercial diets and steers them away from junky, carby foods. If she's opening herself up to discussion, I would rather try and break through to her than just say "ah well, she's a goner. They got her". (I'm only assuming she's a she because her username is misssy) I actually found an article in a pet magazine I brought home from the vets that I was going to post here about corn and its proteins for other people to pick at, until I saw that it was written by the top Hills nutritionist and figured "well, if I posted having that information in mind, I'd be just short of a laughing stock!"
Thanks! Sent the site her way, and quoted all the Pierson information. I'm sure she has tons to read and reply to, so having those quotes is probably handier than the link itself.
I didn't even see the kibble part. No doubt that's something vet schools are still pushing, I guess?
Yeah, I got the impression that they were okay with raw as long as the people who were doing it had done their homework. There's so much that can go wrong if you just assume something is okay and go with it - like cooked bones, and it doesn't really help that a lot of people are proclaiming raw's benefits without much other information, since people assume pet food is a cheap and easy undertaking. I totally agree that raw can be a great diet, but it's not as easy as "I went out and bought a dead lamb, and now my cat's coat is shining and his teeth are pearly white!" That's totally a commercial kind of view, where the meadows are always green and the grass waves with a gentle wind (and god forbid if commercials like that start coming out.. fortunately, I don't have a TV to see them on). The truth is it's a lot of work, and that people should be reading, discussing, talking to professionals, sourcing out safely prepared meats, having the proper nutritional supplements, and learning how to do it best for their animal - not to do it because the internets said it was the new thing.
Someone else posted that raw is reaching a "fad" phase, and for people who follow food trends based on smart marketing, they may be unfortunate enough to think "hey, cool!" and mess it up. I imagine it's harder to mess up the commercial raw diets though, so hopefully if marketing goes that way, it's less of a plunge than complete home cooked and people will do their homework.
I also know the dumbest people with letters after their name. It means they paid their tuition and knew how to regurgitate information.
I noticed that you posted a comment though! Good on you for motoring through and sending her a response too, even if it had to be through grit teeth.
Last edited:
On the genetics, I always forget the National Geographic article doesn't have the study author's quote. It's the Scientific American article, that is not available for free. BUT someone put up a PDF of the article. Here is the quote:
"The results revealed five genetic clusters, or lineages, of wildcats. Four of these lineages corresponded neatly with four of the known subspecies of wildcat and dwelled in specific places: F. silvestris silvestris in Europe, F. s. bieti in China, F. s. ornata in Central Asia and F. s. cafra in southern Africa. The fifth lineage, however, included not only the fifth known subspecies of wildcat—F. s. lybica in the Middle East—but also the hundreds of domestic cats that were sampled, including purebred and mixed-breed felines from the U.S., the U.K. and Japan. In fact, genetically, F. s. lybica wildcats collected in remote deserts of Israel, the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia were virtually indistinguishable from domestic cats."
http://www.catoddities.com/The Evolution of House Cats.pdf
And as a student of genetics, she'll understand the published study: http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/repr/add/domesticcat_driscoll2007.pdf
"The results revealed five genetic clusters, or lineages, of wildcats. Four of these lineages corresponded neatly with four of the known subspecies of wildcat and dwelled in specific places: F. silvestris silvestris in Europe, F. s. bieti in China, F. s. ornata in Central Asia and F. s. cafra in southern Africa. The fifth lineage, however, included not only the fifth known subspecies of wildcat—F. s. lybica in the Middle East—but also the hundreds of domestic cats that were sampled, including purebred and mixed-breed felines from the U.S., the U.K. and Japan. In fact, genetically, F. s. lybica wildcats collected in remote deserts of Israel, the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia were virtually indistinguishable from domestic cats."
http://www.catoddities.com/The Evolution of House Cats.pdf
And as a student of genetics, she'll understand the published study: http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/repr/add/domesticcat_driscoll2007.pdf
Last edited:
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #32
Thanks! I'll send that to the PMer. I do hope the person who PMed me will join the forums and get in on the discussion. This is pretty interesting!
Last edited:
I did post on another thread that my landlord takes his pets to Banfield and he's been trying to convince me to do the same. I went to their web site and whoever writes their Nutrition section was calling raw/homemade diets "trendy." Considering that Dr. Pierson started feeding her own cats raw over a decade ago, on Anne Jablonski's suggestion, I'd hardly think it to be a "trend," more like the proper wave of the future.
I will say that I am heartened to have been watching Dr. Chris, Pet Vet on TV a few Saturdays ago, and there was actually a commercial shown for freeze-dried raw food!! IIRC it was FreshPet. I was so shocked I almost fell off the couch!
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #34
Why does that coming up in Banfield not surprise me? I guess pets no longer being seen as second-rate beings is really changing the way the general population views their companions. The more time and money we invest in how to care for them properly, the more these underground methods, which were obviously started by people who knew and wanted better a long time ago, are surfacing.
Wow, really? I've seen lots of that in stores, but I had yet to see a commercial on it before I moved out of my parents' several months ago.
Wow, really? I've seen lots of that in stores, but I had yet to see a commercial on it before I moved out of my parents' several months ago.
Actually, feeding raw *can* take no more time in learning than feeding canned or kibble. Buy commercial. "Raw" does not HAVE to mean "homemade." !!! It usually costs less than commercial canned to feed, unless you need to have it shipped (frozen), or if you feed really cheap canned.pinkdagger said:
http://catcentric.org/nutrition-and...y-cat-or-i-can-afford-to-feed-commercial-raw/
Want to make homemade but don't want to learn how? Follow Dr. Pierson's recipe (or Anne Jablonsky's on http://www.catnutrition.org)
It is re-inventing the wheel and doing it yourself from scratch that requires time and effort.
Unfortunately, Banfield's website then commenced with the usual cautionary dreck which the more learned cat care-takers will, of course, find insulting, and the less learned/first-time care-takers will find so frightening that they scurry for the cover and "protection" of Science Diet, Royal Canin, et. al.
My landlord has a Shetlie that not only is grossly overweight, but is currently eating DRY prescription food due to kidney stones. This is the same guy who was trying to push me into purchasing a Banfield Wellness plan for Shelly. I need a vet who can think outside the box and doesn't have their paycheck signed by any corporate body. I've read enough groupthink just from the Reddit post, Hill's own website, and Hill's practice of having a "nutrition consultant" posting form-letter-style comments on all the low-starred reviews of their cat food on Amazon.com. I'll not have my Shelly being subjected to it!
Last edited:
Many of today's vets still push kibble for dental benefits. My last vet did, and thankfully my new vet does not. My last vet wasn't real keen on raw diets, but this new one is (although he himself could use some education on it). Two different vets, same clinic, and listed on the holistic vet website. Go figure.Originally Posted by pinkdagger
I didn't even see the kibble part. No doubt that's something vet schools are still pushing, I guess?
Yeah, I got the impression that they were okay with raw as long as the people who were doing it had done their homework. There's so much that can go wrong if you just assume something is okay and go with it - like cooked bones, and it doesn't really help that a lot of people are proclaiming raw's benefits without much other information, since people assume pet food is a cheap and easy undertaking. I totally agree that raw can be a great diet, but it's not as easy as "I went out and bought a dead lamb, and now my cat's coat is shining and his teeth are pearly white!" That's totally a commercial kind of view, where the meadows are always green and the grass waves with a gentle wind (and god forbid if commercials like that start coming out.. fortunately, I don't have a TV to see them on). The truth is it's a lot of work, and that people should be reading, discussing, talking to professionals, sourcing out safely prepared meats, having the proper nutritional supplements, and learning how to do it best for their animal - not to do it because the internets said it was the new thing.
Someone else posted that raw is reaching a "fad" phase, and for people who follow food trends based on smart marketing, they may be unfortunate enough to think "hey, cool!" and mess it up. I imagine it's harder to mess up the commercial raw diets though, so hopefully if marketing goes that way, it's less of a plunge than complete home cooked and people will do their homework.
I also know the dumbest people with letters after their name. It means they paid their tuition and knew how to regurgitate information.
I agree that some education is needed before taking on a raw diet, just like a human should get some education before going vegan (how to get essential AA's). It isn't a LOT of work, but it's more than some are willing to put into it.
I think it's funny they're calling raw a fad diet, especially since commercial foods have been available for only how long?
The vet student posted an FDA link about commercial raw being full of salmonella and listeriosis. Now I skimmed the FDA link, and I couldn't find which commercial raw they were referring to. The FDA is needed, but I can't say that I'm a big fan. They pushed agendas before. Recently, in fact (HPV vaccines).
Even if someone opts to feed a commercially available complete and balanced product?
:dk:
My vet didn't even know they existed. When I told him about them - including the sterile products - he had no hesitation in saying he thought that was great. (The most traditional of the 3 vets we work with).
I think "we" (raw feeders) as a community need to emphasize the importance of feeding homemade raw right - but we need to stop making the blanket statement that feeding raw is hard or complicated or requires work. With commercial products now available, it just isn't, and if someone wants to feed raw without the time investment, they can go to a store and buy it. It IS as simple as that.
I should have said homemade raw, but in my area commercial raw isn't available. The closest commercial raw is 40-something miles away. Because ths is a hot area and many of us work long hours, having it shipped to the house may not seem like an option. In some apartment complexes it isn't an option at all.Even if someone opts to feed a commercially available complete and balanced product?
My vet didn't even know they existed. When I told him about them - including the sterile products - he had no hesitation in saying he thought that was great. (The most traditional of the 3 vets we work with).
I think "we" (raw feeders) as a community need to emphasize the importance of feeding homemade raw right - but we need to stop making the blanket statement that feeding raw is hard or complicated or requires work. With commercial products now available, it just isn't, and if someone wants to feed raw without the time investment, they can go to a store and buy it. It IS as simple as that.
I understand what you're getting at about making it sound hard/complicated, but since these people are throwing plain raw chicken at them and then adding cooked bones from work "for calcium"...I can't help but to say yeah, please stop. People that have common sense? Yeah, I point them to websites like here and others and even write down premix products for them to look at. Following Dr. Pierson's recipe IS pretty much what I do!
