Phosphorus %'s in wet food and Struvite Crystals, help.

[Deex2]

Hi, do any of you happen to know what is considered a safe/low phosphorus % level in canned cat food. I have 3 cats and the girl has and or had struvite crystals and was told to keep her on a lower phosphorus diet, so get what they all are going to get it. I don't know why but why but it is easier for me to read percentages then it is to read some of these charts showing non-% amounts, I think I get "spontaneous dyslexia" or something , I just get confused and I swear I'm not stupid.

I know carbs should be below 10% ideally. I really try NOT to serve dry food. Also if you have any recommendations I'm open and appreciative to know about them. I already feed them Tiki Cat After Dark

***And I fell for the "prescription cat food" gimmick/marketing once years ago and know better now, what a huge waste of money, especially Hill's. FYI, if this hasn't already been posted, if you look at the ingredients on the Hills prescription food and the regular Urinary control (dry foods) they are virtually the same. Both of which are extremely high in carbs, which will can ultimately cause diabetes.., but of coarse there is another food for that, sorry I got side tracked.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Hi. There is a list of foods that reflect low phosphorus on a dry matter basis on Tanya's website for CKD cats. There is no reason you couldn't use it to look for lower phosphorus foods.
Tanya's Comprehensive Guide to Feline Chronic Kidney Disease- Canned Food Data USA (felinecrf.org)

 

[Deex2]

Hi. There is a list of foods that reflect low phosphorus on a dry matter basis on Tanya's website for CKD cats. There is no reason you couldn't use it to look for lower phosphorus foods.
Tanya's Comprehensive Guide to Feline Chronic Kidney Disease- Canned Food Data USA (felinecrf.org)

Yeah I've seen that, but it is confusing for me to read hence my post on this site

 

[FeebysOwner]

I guess I don't understand why it is so confusing. The lower the phosphorus level the better.

 

[Deex2]

It is,
I don't feel I really need to explain myself to you either provide me with the information I am in need of and be helpful or don't respond

 

[FeebysOwner]

I am sorry and I was not intending to offend you, but I thought if I understood what was confusing you, I might be able to help. I am trying to be helpful, tbh.

I guess I honestly don't really know what you want to be provided with. The food chart I shared with you is in percentages. And, the data in that web site states that for CKD cats the ideal phosphorus level is under 0.5%. It also states that no complete non-therapeutic food can be that low, so you should aim to get as close to that as you can.

Sadly, many cat foods don't even list phosphorus - in percentages or otherwise. That is why I thought the chart might help you to find some cat foods that are lower that you might want to try.

 

[GranolaLouise]

As someone who was overwhelmed to find the cat I adopted had kidney disease I was flomoxed trying to understand the Tanya forum posts. The articles were a bit more understandable for someone new to percentages and blood work results.However,given the charts and being with them and my cat's blood tests, clarity eventually came. It is even more overwhelming if you get the Tanya 'bible' which is a tome weighing a ton!
But the link FM posted here will make perfect sense after a while. It has helped me tremendously! I follow the top section for kidney wet foods. Most of the lowest phos foods are the prescription foods. But since you don't trust them,perhaps you could talk with your vet about home cooked foods and supplements to make up for what the cat needs for good feline health ? Anyway, the lower the number,the better.
To save you frustration,have a talk with your vet about the specific way of reading the level that you are looking for.

 

[Deex2]

I am sorry and I was not intending to offend you, but I thought if I understood what was confusing you, I might be able to help. I am trying to be helpful, tbh.

I guess I honestly don't really know what you want to be provided with. The food chart I shared with you is in percentages. And, the data in that web site states that for CKD cats the ideal phosphorus level is under 0.5%. It also states that no complete non-therapeutic food can be that low, so you should aim to get as close to that as you can.

Sadly, many cat foods don't even list phosphorus - in percentages or otherwise. That is why I thought the chart might help you to find some cat foods that are lower that you might want to try.

Thank you and I'm sorry if I came across as rude too.
That Tanya info sheet just has so many columns/lines, #### i don't know where to look. I think if I was told or could see a range to stay within and reference ie 1.83% is considered too high and below .05% is too low that would tell me that 1.22% would be ok (if that makes sense).
Another thing that confuses me is which #'s to look at when buying a can of food ie, am i suppose to look at the % level per serving or in the can as a whole.....

I think if i could just find a safe range to stay with in to reference and is it per portion or can that would be helpful

 

[FeebysOwner]

The first column is the phosphorus %, so that would be the one to look at since that is your focus. All of the numbers represent the content of a can, not a serving. The second to the last column lists the calories - which are for the full can. And don't get mad at me, in case I am misunderstanding you, but the phosphorus percentage isn't going to change whether it is a serving or a can, likewise for all of the other percentages listed. If there is xx% phosphorus in a can, then that will be the percentage in a serving as well. I believe the data most cans reflect are numbers based on the entire can - maybe that doesn't apply to the big cans - I don't know since I have never bought bigger cans.

The reason why the chart is good is that it reflects the percentages on a 'dry matter basis', not a 'guaranteed analysis basis' or 'as fed' basis'. The latter two are always going to reflect a lower percentage because it is including the water in a can which dilutes the numbers. Most cans reflect numbers relative to guaranteed analysis or as fed. So, looking at the can's numbers and this chart is like comparing apples to oranges. Many of us who have CKD cats have actually contacted the product's company to ask for dry matter basis because they don't list it that way.

You may get differing opinions on the best range to use, but since your cat does not have CKD, I would think staying around 1.2% would be acceptable. Part of the issue is whether or not your cat will eat the ones you pick out, so it may be that you will have to go higher in phosphorus to find ones she will eat. I will tell you that pates seem to contain a higher level of phosphorus than non-pates, but that is all my cat will eat so that's what she gets. I do know that the Tiki Cat After Dark non-pate chicken cans (those that also include either beef, duck, lamb, pork, or quail egg) range from 0.98% to 1.24% phosphorus on a dry matter basis, so if you are using any of those, they seem reasonable to me.

The most important thing for a cat that is prone to crystals is moisture - wet food and encouraging them to drink water. This helps keep the kidneys flushed out so that debris doesn't collect as easily in the bladder to form into crystals. So, you are absolutely on the right track regarding staying away from dry food if you can.

I think you understand all this more than you give yourself credit for. You are overthinking it and I have found when I do that, it tends to lead me down 'rabbit holes', if you know what I mean!!!

 

[Deex2]

The first column is the phosphorus %, so that would be the one to look at since that is your focus. All of the numbers represent the content of a can, not a serving. The second to the last column lists the calories - which are for the full can. And don't get mad at me, in case I am misunderstanding you, but the phosphorus percentage isn't going to change whether it is a serving or a can, likewise for all of the other percentages listed. If there is xx% phosphorus in a can, then that will be the percentage in a serving as well. I believe the data most cans reflect are numbers based on the entire can - maybe that doesn't apply to the big cans - I don't know since I have never bought bigger cans.

The reason why the chart is good is that it reflects the percentages on a 'dry matter basis', not a 'guaranteed analysis basis' or 'as fed' basis'. The latter two are always going to reflect a lower percentage because it is including the water in a can which dilutes the numbers. Most cans reflect numbers relative to guaranteed analysis or as fed. So, looking at the can's numbers and this chart is like comparing apples to oranges. Many of us who have CKD cats have actually contacted the product's company to ask for dry matter basis because they don't list it that way.

You may get differing opinions on the best range to use, but since your cat does not have CKD, I would think staying around 1.2% would be acceptable. Part of the issue is whether or not your cat will eat the ones you pick out, so it may be that you will have to go higher in phosphorus to find ones she will eat. I will tell you that pates seem to contain a higher level of phosphorus than non-pates, but that is all my cat will eat so that's what she gets. I do know that the Tiki Cat After Dark non-pate chicken cans (those that also include either beef, duck, lamb, pork, or quail egg) range from 0.98% to 1.24% phosphorus on a dry matter basis, so if you are using any of those, they seem reasonable to me.

The most important thing for a cat that is prone to crystals is moisture - wet food and encouraging them to drink water. This helps keep the kidneys flushed out so that debris doesn't collect as easily in the bladder to form into crystals. So, you are absolutely on the right track regarding staying away from dry food if you can.

I think you understand all this more than you give yourself credit for. You are overthinking it and I have found when I do that, it tends to lead me down 'rabbit holes', if you know what I mean?

THANK YOU!!!
That was very helpful and thoughtful of you. In the 1st paragraph however i am still a little confused. Why would the phos. level % be the same # for the whole can vs a serving? It would seem that for example, if a whole can was 1% and a serving is half a can then the phos level would be cut in half .5%, if that makes sense.

And please clarify I should be looking at the % of Phos in the "dry matter basis" not just on the chart we referenced but in general, correct?

Look at the attached file. Would you say that the majority of these food tend to be on the higher side of Phosphorus?

 

[Mac and Cats]

Here is a link that may help you find lower phosphorus foods. It is intended for cats with kidney disease, but it has the information you are looking for.

 

[Mac and Cats]

THANK YOU!!!
That was very helpful and thoughtful of you. In the 1st paragraph however i am still a little confused. Why would the phos. level % be the same # for the whole can vs a serving? It would seem that for example, if a whole can was 1% and a serving is half a can then the phos level would be cut in half .5%, if that makes sense.

And please clarify I should be looking at the % of Phos in the "dry matter basis" not just on the chart we referenced but in general, correct?

Look at the attached file. Would you say that the majority of these food tend to be on the higher side of Phosphorus?

I would say that these foods are pretty high in phosphorus. I would say look for something 1% or under on a DMB. The prescription urinary foods have a range, but are generally under 1%. You can look at the Hills website and see what their urinary foods contain. They have that information under the nutrition tab.

 

[Deex2]

Here is a link that may help you find lower phosphorus foods. It is intended for cats with kidney disease, but it has the information you are looking for.

Hey, thanks I'll check it out.

 

[FeebysOwner]

THANK YOU!!!That was very helpful and thoughtful of you. In the 1st paragraph however i am still a little confused. Why would the phos. level % be the same # for the whole can vs a serving? It would seem that for example, if a whole can was 1% and a serving is half a can then the phos level would be cut in half .5%, if that makes sense. And please clarify I should be looking at the % of Phos in the "dry matter basis" not just on the chart we referenced but in general, correct? Look at the attached file. Would you say that the majority of these food tend to be on the higher side of Phosphorus?

Percentages are ratios, not quantitative numbers, like the calories in a can of food. The ratio of phosphorus is not lowered because the quantitative amount of food is less. I will work on trying to come up with a simpler way of explaining it and get back to you. But trust me whether you are talking about 1/2 can or a whole can, the phosphorus % remains the same.

If you can find dry matter basis percentages for phosphorus for other cans of food than just what is listed on that chart I shared with you, then yes, you can use those as well. Just like the attachment you shared. And the majority of those are higher than 1.5% phosphorus, so I would consider them to be on the higher side.

 

[silent meowlook]

I like this chart. https://catinfo.org/docs/CatFoodProteinFatCarbPhosphorusChart.pdf

 

[FriendofFerals]

I've been using Dave's Low Phosphorous Chicken Liver and Chicken in juice pate for my two CKD boys. It's 12.00 mg/100kcal "as fed," and 0.15% dry matter (max). It is not a "complete food" in that you can't feed it exclusively but you can mix it with a little of something else. Mine are on 50% Dave's and 50% Tiki Cat or Blue Wilderness chicken pate and their kidney values (BUN, creatinine, and SDMA) are holding steady for both. One is borderline stage 2-3 and the other is stage 2. They get NO dry food.

I did some reading and didn't like the typical vet's Hill's recommendation. They wouldn't even eat it anyway since they only eat pate.

Restricted Diet Phosphorus – Chicken & Chicken Recipe Paté in Juice / 5.5 oz | Dave's Pet Food

NEW FORMULA This formula was developed with the help of a Veterinarian specializing in helping cats with kidney disease. Intended for cats who require a low-phosphorus diet, this Restricted Diet Phosphorus Formula contains low levels of phosphorus, to help manage kidney disease. This food is...

www.davespetfood.com

 

[julesb]

Hi there,

I have a similar problem. My cat has a bladder inflammation that's causing struvite crystals to be present in her urine. The vet prescribed Maropitant for the inflammation and wants me to feed her Hill's Urinary care c/d food to get the crystals out. The thing is, I don't think highly of Hill's food; it's just by products and fillers, in my opinion. So similarly, I am looking for good quality wet food that's low in phosphorus and high in moisture. I see Weruva Wx has 2 chicken options (the cat doesn't like fish), there's Tiki silver for seniors, the above mentioned Dave's restricted phosphorus diet, Tiki Luka Luka, etc. Can anyone share their experience with these foods and perhaps even recommend some others? I've been researching and am feeling a little overwhelmed at the moment.

Thank you,
Julia

 

[FeebysOwner]

J julesb - Hi. Was there an actual infection involved (UTI)?

I would try any and all of the above that you mentioned. But I do want to point out that inflammation doesn't cause struvite crystals - it is actually the opposite, in that the struvite crystals are causing the inflammation. The best remedy for that is moisture, moisture, moisture to help flush out crystals from the bladder and lessen the odds of inflammation because they do tend to irritate the bladder lining.

If the Hill's C/D is wet food, you might want to start by giving it a try and have your cat rechecked for crystals again. I don't honestly understand what is in that food that dissolves crystals, but it does seem to work in so many cases. In the meantime, with that approach, try to find ways to get her to take in more water/moisture.

 

[julesb]

J julesb - Hi. Was there an actual infection involved (UTI)?

I would try any and all of the above that you mentioned. But I do want to point out that inflammation doesn't cause struvite crystals - it is actually the opposite, in that the struvite crystals are causing the inflammation. The best remedy for that is moisture, moisture, moisture to help flush out crystals from the bladder and lessen the odds of inflammation because they do tend to irritate the bladder lining.

If the Hill's C/D is wet food, you might want to start by giving it a try and have your cat rechecked for crystals again. I don't honestly understand what is in that food that dissolves crystals, but it does seem to work in so many cases. In the meantime, with that approach, try to find ways to get her to take in more water/moisture.

Thank you. She's been drinking water like crazy, which is the reason I took her to the vet. She refused the Hill's food tonight and I gave her Weruva Wx chicken, which she liked, so I'm pleased with that for now.

 

[ademink]

I just wanted to thank everyone for this information. I was looking for the answer to this very question and your answers are greatly appreciated!