Lower Phosphorus freeze dried foods?

[syzygycat]

Sprinkling freeze dried is the only way to get my cat to eat her RX kidney food.
Stella and Chewy's has about 3% phosphorus (dry matter basis). Instinct Raw has 1.10% and Nulo allegedly has 0.96%.

Does anyone know of any Freeze Dried food that's lower than Nulo?

 

[FeebysOwner]

Hi. How much exactly are you 'sprinkling' on the RX food? Is she not taking to the current ones, and that is why you are looking for alternatives?

Depending on the amount you use, any of the ones you are giving her could be fine. Of course, the Nulo would be better of those you mentioned. But there are few and far between offerings that get lower than Nulo.

It might help to know what you are trying to accomplish and why.

 

[lisamarie12]

I don't know of any freeze dried raw foods lower than Nulo (I used Nulo turkey/duck for two years but stopped using it bc it's high in iodine), however, I've had luck using freeze dried liver to get my cat to eat a food with a supplement in it, recommended by her vet.

It sounds like your cat has kidney disease since you're trying to get her to eat the prescription kidney food. Just a pinch of crushed freeze dried liver may work which may be lower in phos than freeze dried raw which typically contains bone.

I also use a líquid topper - Inaba Churu chicken broth, just a little also could be enough to entice my cat to eat.

Good luck.

 

[lisamarie12]

I just noticed that Vital Essentials freeze dried pork has a phosphorus % of 0.84 on a dmb, that would be slightly lower than Nulo. I requested the typical analysis data from VE several days ago to check other values.

I'm not able to attach the Excel file for some reason, however, you could contact VE directly, below is the DM for their pork. The rabbit phos is 0.90.

Pork​	​
​	DM Basis​
Vitamins​	​
Vitamin A​	16,500.000​
Thiamine:B1​	10.000​
Riboflavin:B2​	5.000​
Niacin: B3​	71.000​
Pyridoxine: B6​	4.000​
Vitamin B12​	0.028​
Vitamin D​	720.000​
Vitamin E​	65.000​
Folate: B9​	0.890​
Pantothenate​	6.100​
Choline​	2,850.000​
Taurine​	0.180​
Minerals​	​
Calcium​	1.800​
Chloride​	0.350​
Copper​	14.000​
Iodine​	2.000​
Iron​	92.000​
Magnesium​	0.095​
Manganese​	7.600​
Phosphorus​	0.840​

 

[syzygycat]

I just noticed that Vital Essentials freeze dried pork has a phosphorus % of 0.84 on a dmb, that would be slightly lower than Nulo. I requested the typical analysis data from VE several days ago to check other values.

I'm not able to attach the Excel file for some reason, however, you could contact VE directly, below is the DM for their pork. The rabbit phos is 0.90.

1) Thank you

2) I've been scouring the web for VE's mineral analysis they don't post it. Was what they sent you say "guaranteed" or "certificate of analysis" anywhere on it?

I got Nulo's phosphate # by reaching out. They just said 0.96%
I doubt the do any Quality Control analysis for minerals. Without stating "guaranteed analysis" The numbers are usually based on calculated minimum possible input. Not testing the product
...I was a QC chemist for a decade, I know 1st hand FDA only requires the product be "safe". Usually mfr just add up the MINIMUM v purity of each ingredient's nutrients. Vitamins and Minerals have to be above a minimum and toxins have to be below a maximum That's why lots of labels say Protein(min), Taurine(min), Ash(max), etc. [off topic but a major daily vitamin label says 400IU Vit. D , actual testing has it at 1200-1500IU, they just include a statement saying <2500 IU Vit. D is safe for adults... shocking, right?]

The # on the "Guaranteed Analysis" or "Certificate of Analysis" has to be within a few percent. Nutrients like phosphate can otherwise be listed as minimum and only guaranteed not to be high enough to be toxic to normal healthy cats.

 

[syzygycat]

Hi. How much exactly are you 'sprinkling' on the RX food? Is she not taking to the current ones, and that is why you are looking for alternatives?

Depending on the amount you use, any of the ones you are giving her could be fine. Of course, the Nulo would be better of those you mentioned. But there are few and far between offerings that get lower than Nulo.

It might help to know what you are trying to accomplish and why.

I have to feed her 6x a day.
Her apetite is low she's 9.2lb but will only 1oz of hills wetfood+ nulo /meal.

Nulo comes in little cubes, doing the math she eats just about 4 cubes; roughly 4.5-5 kcal nulo with 20-23 cal wet food per meal

She not getting enough calories, and 20% is from freeze dried.


*I offer 2oz hills chick&veg kd mashed up with 8 nulo cubes but she pretty consistantly eats a little over 1oz.
She'll eat Weruva WX but I have to add a lot more freeze dried. She won't touch hills pate or the 2 royal canine flavors i tried. She does eat Purina NF with only less nulo but Purina NF has horrible ingredients.

 

[FeebysOwner]

I am not sure I understand your end goal - is the freeze dried just to get her to eat the RX kidney food? There are many other options for low phosphorus foods beside the prescription ones that you could try to see if she will eat any of them without having to use freeze dried toppers. Perhaps, she would be willing to eat more of some of them than what she is currently eating now.
I shared that, and some other eating tips, in your other thread - Options RX kidney foods? | TheCatSite

I don't know the stage or level of your cat's CKD, but at some point most of these cats end up needing an appetite stimulant and/or an anti-nausea med to keep them earing adequately. I also give my cat phosphorus binders as opposed to trying to get her to eat food she just doesn't like.

 

[GenCat]

Sprinkling freeze dried is the only way to get my cat to eat her RX kidney food.
Stella and Chewy's has about 3% phosphorus (dry matter basis). Instinct Raw has 1.10% and Nulo allegedly has 0.96%.

Does anyone know of any Freeze Dried food that's lower than Nulo?

Closest I could find is KOHA's freeze dry toppers at .93%/.94% dry matter for chicken/beef. Freeze dry always tends towards having high phos in my experience (which is why I will never bother, at that point would just feed raw + a meal completer which may still happen if I can't get them to eat homemade cooked)

Are you in the CKD cats groups on Facebook? I always hear good things about them.

 

[my_money_pit]

The # on the "Guaranteed Analysis" or "Certificate of Analysis" has to be within a few percent. Nutrients like phosphate can otherwise be listed as minimum and only guaranteed not to be high enough to be toxic to normal healthy cats.

Is this applied for all cat foods or just the freeze dried?
I was feeding my cat Big Country Raw. They have listed 0.6% min Calcium on the package but after going on their website and doing the math based on the analysis they provided, the calcium is at 1.08% which is way above the requirement and almost double the amount needed per day. I believe, tho I didn't do any research or tests to prove that, that at this level, it is toxic to cats.

 

[my_money_pit]

Closest I could find is KOHA's freeze dry toppers at .93%/.94% dry matter for chicken/beef. Freeze dry always tends towards having high phos in my experience (which is why I will never bother, at that point would just feed raw + a meal completer which may still happen if I can't get them to eat homemade cooked)

Are you in the CKD cats groups on Facebook? I always hear good things about them.

Commercial raw food is high in calcium, freeze dried is high in phosphorus, kibbles are high in carbs, wet food also contains carbs even tho it's way less than kibbles(depending on the brand).
I am at loss at what to feed my cat! :/

 

[GranolaLouise]

I sprinkle 2 crushed frozen ORIGeN cubes on top of her RX wet renal and she likes that.

https://www.chewy.com/orijen-original-grain-free-freeze/dp/142617?utm_source=google-product&utm_medium=cpc&utm_content=ORIJEN&utm_campaign=20647600292&utm_term=&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAyp-sBhBSEiwAWWzTntkqCvLgyom7_VvSePZmXQb6vZm36WMGweesaR3w3kOayc-3Qw78zxoCWLkQAvD_BwE

 

[GenCat]

Commercial raw food is high in calcium, freeze dried is high in phosphorus, kibbles are high in carbs, wet food also contains carbs even tho it's way less than kibbles(depending on the brand).
I am at loss at what to feed my cat! :/

Have you tried just fresh cooked ground beef/turkey/lamb? Since it’s just a way to get them to eat their regular food you could try that. Slow cook the meat for about 30 minutes (1 pound + 1/2 cup of water) mix it up, then if your cat prefers pate texture add a few grams of gelatin (which could be beef or fish based, I think, just check the packaging/research). Personally would freeze it in a silicone mini muffin pan or liners if you don’t have the freezer space for a full pan. Then you can just pop one out and let it defrost in the fridge to add to their meals everyday.

Just make sure the sodium content of the meat isn’t over 25g per ounce of meat and there aren’t any other additives in the meat. As well as remembering this is not a complete meal so only small amounts to get them to eat.

 

[syzygycat]

Is this applied for all cat foods or just the freeze dried?
I was feeding my cat Big Country Raw. They have listed 0.6% min Calcium on the package but after going on their website and doing the math based on the analysis they provided, the calcium is at 1.08% which is way above the requirement and almost double the amount needed per day. I believe, tho I didn't do any research or tests to prove that, that at this level, it is toxic to cats.

Labeling applies to everything governed by FDA rules. AFAIK that's all Human, Dog, and Cat food labels.

Minimum's and Maximim's on the label are just that. For example instinct original kibble adds up to <80%. Consumer databases assume the missing 20-ish% is carbs it may or may not be.

Outside of a Certificate/Guareenteed Analysis. All pet food Minerals and vitamins labels are an estimated minimum.

AAFCO requirements for cats:
Kitten/growth foods must have 0.8% phosphorus, 1.0% calcium.
Adult/Maintenance foods must have 0.5% phosphorus, 0.6% calcium.

The "For All life stages" label means it meets or exceeds the minimums for Kitten/Growth food.

BUT There are no maximums [toxic levels] of calcium or phosphorus established for cat foods at any life stage.
That means it can literally be any amount above the stated minimum.
Dog foods have a 2.5% maximum calcium.

Cat nutrition guidelines are barely out of the dark ages; only Iodine, Vitamin A, Vitamin D, and Methionine have an established maximum.

The 0.6% Ca label on the Big Country food label only means they at least meet the AAFCO minimum for adult cat maintenance... it really could be many times that amount in a given batch. 1.08% is more realistic minimum calcium.

IDK about calcium specifically, but with phosphorus; Out of the 2000+ of types of cat foods. About half of the "low phosphorus/kidney" RX foods have at least the amount of phosphorus a healthy adult cat requires.
Roughly 10 types of non-prescription cat foods have phosphorus low enough to not be for approved for kittens but they still above the minimum amount of phosphorus needed for adult cats.
95%-99% of the foods on the market have 20%-300% extra phosphorus above the 0.6% required by the AAFCO for Kittens/Growth.

Chicken meat without bone is just under 0.5% phosphorus on a dry matter basis, it would be easy to for a petfood company to make it... but then they'de have to waste the bones.

 

[my_money_pit]

Labeling applies to everything governed by FDA rules. AFAIK that's all Human, Dog, and Cat food labels.

Minimum's and Maximim's on the label are just that. For example instinct original kibble adds up to <80%. Consumer databases assume the missing 20-ish% is carbs it may or may not be.
View attachment 466624
Outside of a Certificate/Guareenteed Analysis. All pet food Minerals and vitamins labels are an estimated minimum.

AAFCO requirements for cats:
Kitten/growth foods must have 0.8% phosphorus, 1.0% calcium.
Adult/Maintenance foods must have 0.5% phosphorus, 0.6% calcium.

The "For All life stages" label means it meets or exceeds the minimums for Kitten/Growth food.

BUT There are no maximums [toxic levels] of calcium or phosphorus established for cat foods at any life stage.
That means it can literally be any amount above the stated minimum.
Dog foods have a 2.5% maximum calcium.

Cat nutrition guidelines are barely out of the dark ages; only Iodine, Vitamin A, Vitamin D, and Methionine have an established maximum.

The 0.6% Ca label on the Big Country food label only means they at least meet the AAFCO minimum for adult cat maintenance... it really could be many times that amount in a given batch. 1.08% is more realistic minimum calcium.

IDK about calcium specifically, but with phosphorus; Out of the 2000+ of types of cat foods. About half of the "low phosphorus/kidney" RX foods have at least the amount of phosphorus a healthy adult cat requires.
Roughly 10 types of non-prescription cat foods have phosphorus low enough to not be for approved for kittens but they still above the minimum amount of phosphorus needed for adult cats.
95%-99% of the foods on the market have 20%-300% extra phosphorus above the 0.6% required by the AAFCO for Kittens/Growth.

Chicken meat without bone is just under 0.5% phosphorus on a dry matter basis, it would be easy to for a petfood company to make it... but then they'de have to waste the bones.

Before adopting my cat 3 years ago, i researched a bit about what type of food i should be feeding him. I came to a conclusion that wet food is better and to watch out about the carb percentage. When he recently got UTI, I started digging a bit more and I was very shocked to know how bad the whole industry is even the raw one.
We do have one local brand in Montreal that does raw food but there recipes are not complete. They do not add any supplements. They have few recipes without bones but the majority of them contain chicken bones. I wish they are more transparent about the percentage of bones but since they are not required by law to put it, they don't do that.
If i knew that the food industry for pets is worse than the ones for humans, I would have not adopted a cat.
My last resort so far is to try making the food at home using the TC feline supplements.

Thank you for all the info. It's such a sad sad reality we live in. The only hope is to cook at home.

 

[my_money_pit]

Have you tried just fresh cooked ground beef/turkey/lamb? Since it’s just a way to get them to eat their regular food you could try that. Slow cook the meat for about 30 minutes (1 pound + 1/2 cup of water) mix it up, then if your cat prefers pate texture add a few grams of gelatin (which could be beef or fish based, I think, just check the packaging/research). Personally would freeze it in a silicone mini muffin pan or liners if you don’t have the freezer space for a full pan. Then you can just pop one out and let it defrost in the fridge to add to their meals everyday.

Just make sure the sodium content of the meat isn’t over 25g per ounce of meat and there aren’t any other additives in the meat. As well as remembering this is not a complete meal so only small amounts to get them to eat.

I boiled a chicken for him. At least he is getting some water in that. I will turkey since it's the only thing I have in my freezer. I'm pretty sure he will like it. Thanks for the comments and recipe.

 

[GenCat]

I boiled a chicken for him. At least he is getting some water in that. I will turkey since it's the only thing I have in my freezer. I'm pretty sure he will like it. Thanks for the comments and recipe.

Mine adored grass-fed beef made like this. I managed to find bison today and froze it for future rotation. Just a note, I noticed certain meats cook weirdly with the gelatin and may require additional water. Specifically ground lamb thickened really hard and my cats thought I was insane for even trying to hide it in their regular food, whereas my mother went "You fed your cats LAMB?? even I don't eat that good" lol (or it may be when/how much I added since I was experimenting)

Funny enough my mother doesn't realize that my homemade meals are cheaper than the good canned food, even with bison.

 

[my_money_pit]

Mine adored grass-fed beef made like this. I managed to find bison today and froze it for future rotation. Just a note, I noticed certain meats cook weirdly with the gelatin and may require additional water. Specifically ground lamb thickened really hard and my cats thought I was insane for even trying to hide it in their regular food, whereas my mother went "You fed your cats LAMB?? even I don't eat that good" lol (or it may be when/how much I added since I was experimenting)

Funny enough my mother doesn't realize that my homemade meals are cheaper than the good canned food, even with bison.

don't you add any supplements?

 

[GenCat]

don't you add any supplements?

Sorry for the confusion, I was just talking about cooking method here since it's mostly for supplemental feeding.

For mine I use EZComplete.

 

[vpaon06]

Chicken meat without bone is just under 0.5% phosphorus on a dry matter basis, it would be easy to for a petfood company to make it... but then they'de have to waste the bones.

Hm, I just checked the nutritional values on 3 different types of freeze-dried food (chicken, turkey and wagyu beef hearts). All foods are 98% meat and 2% carrots. So no bones, just meat. And they still have phosphorus levels of 0.81%, 0.79% and 0.63%, respectively. The lowest I found was freeze dried white fish at 0.58%, I'm not sure how you can get lower than that (i.e., to 5%) unless you simply reduce the amount of meat that you feed and supplement part of the diet with low-phosphorus veggies and carbs like zucchini and rice? Genuine question, because food guidelines (even for pets) are much stricter here in Europe, so I don't think a cat's diet can get much better than freeze dried raw whole food. Also, isn't it natural for cats to eat whole pray anyway (bones and all)?