(japan) Indoor Ferals (looking For Advice)

[Solcita]

Hi everybody! Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to let you know our situation to see if you have any ideas on how to improve it.

I am Sol, the one living in Japan with a feral family inside our house. Kato and the kittens came to live indoors with us since mid October 2018. The kittens, we believe were born in early September.

They live in our hallway, where they have their private space, but still see us often as our toilet is located there, even when we try to ignore them as much as possible (to prevent scaring them).
We replaced their old cage (it was falling due to their crazy jumping) and built a big cat tree, which they love. However one of the kittens (Mini2, who is the one who gets scare easily) feels more insecure now and normally hides under a pillow. But when HE (later on that) is in the highest floor he totally relaxes (he realized this very recently)

They keep coming to our living room daily when I'm around for a few hours while our cats nap. They love the given freedom and play and run, but still they haven't warmed up with us.
Sometimes we can pet them until they realize that nice thing is US touching them so they move away, sometimes they freak out a little bit. They HAVE NEVER EVER attack.

ISSUE 1: no routine
When I am not at home, the ferals cannot come to our living room, so they don't have a daily routine to come... and I travel a lot.
Last time I traveled for 10 days, when I came back the cats were not comfortable around me. Even now (2 weeks after my return) the Mini2 is still afraid of me and gets really stressed when I'm around, yesterday when I had to move him out of his hallway I almost killed him with the door and it was a very stresfull situation for all.
So it's impossible to mantain a routine with them. Sometimes it takes 2 weeks to reach something good, and then one day we go backwards two steps... so we are still not comfortable at all and at times we feel we are hurting them more than we are helping them. I will keep traveling a lot in the next three months.

ISSUE 2: not enough space
We have two resident cats who love humans but hate other cats (including each other). This has been giving us a lot of stress.
Kato and the kittens are IN LOVE with our oldest cat (10 yo - deaf - cancer survivor) and they tend to try to be close to her. Sometimes when she is sleeping they go and try to pet her or they lay down very near her.
At first we would be on top of her in order to prevent any attack, but the reality is she just hisses and goes away and has never attempted attacking them (I think she is too lazy to). She now doesn't hate them as much, but she doesn't interact with them (her mood changed a lot after the cancer treatment and she likes to be left alone, and doesn't like any cats), she simple tolerates them.
On the other hand, our youngest (9 yo) HATE THEM DEEPLY and she is the one we need to be careful with. One time alone she was allowed in the living room (with a leash) and she jumped directly to attack them. She is now used to be locked in the bedroom when the kittens come and has no problems with it, but again, I am starting to feel the ferals need their own house where they are not locked in different rooms all the time but they have freedom...
We tried our best as we considered this to be temporary, but our moving to a bigger place will take at least one more year and many factors do not depend on us.

ISSUE 3: fleas
A couple of months ago our oldest started having skin issues which is potentially bad for her as any wound can wake up her cancer. Many vet visits later and a bunch of bald spots on her; we found out we had fleas and she is allergic to them.
From that moment on we started treating the house for fleas, we applied fleas treatment to our resident cats but we haven't been able to treat the ferals, which of course means nothing will work.
We are currently vaccumming every single day, cleaning the house upside down with vinegar and have had two rounds of fleas bombs and every single day we are killing fleas by hand. Of course it's not enough. And it's started to affect our oldest' health and you have no idea how my legs look.

A potential issue: we were told both kittens were girls when we trapped them... but a couple of weeks ago I saw a couple of what's obviously balls... so Mini2 is A FREAKING BOY.
We already scheduled their fixing date, but we couldn't catch them and they got really stressed out. We have a new appointment and we will leave their old cage in their room for a week so they warm up again and we will try again. That day they will be treated for fleas as well.
( I am trying to use Food grade Diatomaceous earth, but due to the "food" laveling, Japan rejected the importation... so now I ordered from a Japanese provider (which is 10x more expensive) but it will take one more week to arrive :/

Seeking for advice:
1 - Is there anything else we can do to make our daily lives easier with them? We have at least one more year to go in this situation.
I feel no matter how much we try, as now it's affecting our oldest health I am reconsidering I have to focus on her.

2 - Is it time to relocate the cats with a house that would house them only them? I have been asking around but most people are not interested of course in semi-ferals. I call them semi-ferals because they have no issues with the household itself, living inside, the sounds of the house, etc... they simply don't like us.
I am starting to consider a no-kill shelter where they have more experience dealing with this situation but it breaks my heart to take them out of a house to go to an institution. The kittens are 10 months old by now.
I would keep Kato in a hearbeat, but I think Mini2 cannot be separted, so he has to go with his sister or his mom.

I read many succesful stories of ferals suddenly starting to ask affection if you ignore them enough... but the problem is we do not have the chance for them to be around us all the time... that's why I am asking to myself if it's not better to keep trying to relocate them. And if so, where?

Any advices???

Thank you in advance!!!!!!

Sol

 

[Norachan]

Hi Solcita Nice to hear from you again.



Just reading through your post, I will try and answer some of your questions soon.

 

[Norachan]

I have a few questions...

First of all, who takes care of all the cats while you are away? Do you have a cat sitter or does another family member do this?

The new cat tree looks great. A few of mine are nervous "tree dwellers" too, but what ever makes them comfortable. Could you make a wooden box and attach it on one of the top shelves as a bed for Mini 2? Mine have cardboard boxes with cushions inside all along the top of my wardrobe and the skittish cats sleep up there all the time.

What flea treatments have you tried? The liquid ones, like Frontline, are tricky to apply if you can't get close to the cats. You can get flea traps to put around the house and sprays for their bedding.

This spray is really good, smells great too.

https://global.rakuten.com/en/store/greenpacks/item/100001821/

I've never used a flea trap, but maybe something like this would help?

Zero In FLEA KILLER FLEAS ELECTRONIC TRAP 24 HOURS PROTECTION POISON FREE ZERO20 5036200340207 | eBay

Did you ever try a Feliway diffuser or spray in their room? I've found that a squirt of Feliway on your hands before trying to approach the kittens helps with the nervous ones.

So you have one male and one female kitten? If they haven't been fixed yet there is a good chance that the female will be pregnant. You can still spay-abort, but just be prepared for that. If you can't get the kittens into a carrier try feeding them in a humane trap, door wired open, from now on so they can be trapped when you have to take them to the vet

To be honest I think you'll have a lot of trouble re-homing semi feral kittens. Most shelters will only take kittens that can be handled, as they have the best chance of being adopted.

Don't give up yet. A few of my cats couldn't be handled at all for the first year (or more) but they like being petted now. Getting them fixed and then putting more time into socialising them is probably your best option.

 

[di and bob]

There are oral fleatreatments too, such as Capstar, you might check on it. It would be easier to give if you could sneak it in a small amount of something they really like.
I have a feeling the just need more human contact then you are giving them to be really tame. It doesn't mean they will never get there, it will just take a lot more time, years. I wouldn't worry about not enough space, or that it will be a year before you can give them some, cats adjust to very small places and as long as they have food, water, and toys, they will be fine. They have everything they want right now, a home and your love, it is all they will ever want. Please keep us posted!

 

[Solcita]

Hi! Thank you for the answers!!

First of all, who takes care of all the cats while you are away? Do you have a cat sitter or does another family member do this?

My husband always stays when I travel, we always make sure one of us stay, but he doesn't take the cats to the living room when I'm around because it's too stressfull to him.
We are considering a small trip (less than a week) in September and we might get a catsitter for that.

Could you make a wooden box and attach it on one of the top shelves as a bed for Mini 2? Mine have cardboard boxes with cushions inside all along the top of my wardrobe and the skittish cats sleep up there all the time.

I actually was planning to add a pad house and it freaking arrived today, but now with the fleas we want to avoid any fabric (I removed all pillows yesterday) Before I gave him a cardboard box but he just broke it and wouldn't go in like before.
I will def check the posibility of building a wooden box with the materials left.

What flea treatments have you tried? The liquid ones, like Frontline, are tricky to apply if you can't get close to the cats. You can get flea traps to put around the house and sprays for their bedding.

Our resident cats has been using Frontline.
For the house, the fleas bombs we have been using are these:

We let them for 3 hours, then access and open the windows while leaving the vacuum by itself. Normally when we clean the filter we can see a few fleas still alive in there.
After that, we mop the floors with a lot of vinegar that is supposed to kill the rest or scare them away.
We did the bomb set yesterday in Kato's room and this morning I only found two very tiny fleas when I went and I can see that the "flea poop" on the floor is minimal now. But that will increase once the new fleas are born... not sure if the bombs kill the eggs too...

The ferals haven't been treated so far.

There are oral fleatreatments too, such as Capstar, you might check on it.

I have been searching here in Japan and it didn't seem to be an option.
I will try to call my vet tomorrow to see what he can say... he didn't give us any option when he told us we indeed had fleas.

This spray is really good, smells great too.
https://global.rakuten.com/en/store/greenpacks/item/100001821/
I've never used a flea trap, but maybe something like this would help?
Zero In FLEA KILLER FLEAS ELECTRONIC TRAP 24 HOURS PROTECTION POISON FREE ZERO20 5036200340207 | eBay

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Zero-In-FL...730434&hash=item3d5e8aac44:g:ht8AAOSwdl1ctQny
I have seen those electronic traps and I thought it wouldn't work... does anybody have any experience with them?
About the spray I will def give it a try, as the vinegar don't seem too effective to be honest...

Did you ever try a Feliway diffuser or spray in their room? I've found that a squirt of Feliway on your hands before trying to approach the kittens helps with the nervous ones.

We did use Feliway at home soon after Kato moved in but it didn't make any difference...

So you have one male and one female kitten? If they haven't been fixed yet there is a good chance that the female will be pregnant. You can still spay-abort, but just be prepared for that. If you can't get the kittens into a carrier try feeding them in a humane trap, door wired open, from now on so they can be trapped when you have to take them to the vet

Yes... even when my hubby hasn't seen the balls I am 100% certain Mini2 is a boy. That would also explain the size difference between the two. Mini2 is so much bigger they don't look like litermates.

Thank you for your replies!! I won't give up just yet!
I am hope things improve after the fixing. I am glad the lack of space is not affecting them, but I am desperate for more human interaction for them...

We will see how the next few days go!!
Thank you!!!

 

[walli]

neutering and spaying will help! I've used the Oral comfortis flea treatment for Walli, Getting them to eat it is the trick you have to get tricky, I broke mine in pieces instead of grinding into a powder, she wouldn't eat the food when I made a powder. keep posting! Welcome back!

Make sure you read all the weight requirements when using the oral flea treatments

also read up on the capstar and comfortis, they are different and do different things
the capstar kills instantly but not eggs, I think you can give it to them more often, it may be what you want to start with.
read up on the comfortis as they have a lot of warnings and it made Walli throw up
but I think she ate enough of it.

fyi: Im still working with Walli and Joey, so I'm right there with you!!

 

[Norachan]

I have seen those electronic traps and I thought it wouldn't work... does anybody have any experience with them?

I've never used them, but you could start a thread in Grooming & General Cat Care and ask if anyone has a brand they could recommend.

I have been searching here in Japan and it didn't seem to be an option.

Try Amazon Japan. They can usually find a company that will ship from the US. It might take a while, but I've managed to get stuff that way before.

I think while the whole family are living in the genkan and only seeing you as you go in or out it will take forever for them to warm up to you. Can you let them have access to the living room all the time? Does it upset your other cats if they come in the living room? I was thinking maybe you could rig up a screen door with mosquito netting. That way the cats can all see each other and the feral family get used to you and your husband being there more often.

You've really got to spend quality time with them before they'll warm up to you. That means hanging out in the same room as them for hours. Sitting on the floor, watching TV or using your lap top while they go about their daily cat lives. As they're fortune enough to have been well fed all their lives the kittens are not going to appreciate the fact that you feed them as much as a cat that went hungry for a while would do.

You'll need to spend a lot of time with them and try to engage them in play, as well as petting and grooming them.

Here are a few articles that may help them get on with your older cats.

How To Successfully Introduce Cats: The Ultimate Guide

How To Fix An Unsuccessful Cat Introduction

 

[Solcita]

Hey guys! A few updates!

Yesterday we catched Mini1 in the homemade cage. It looks like the old one but small. She was laying there and we simply closed it. No drama, no fight. She did cry a little but I took the cage out and covered it and in no time she was at the shelter for neutering and flea treatment. I am on my way to pick her up now.
Mini2 is impossible to catch so we got a trap that he won't go near, but I think once Mini1 is back she will def go in and he will go to check it out too... Eventually the shelter people have extensive experience with ferals (unlike our vet who seems not get it at all) and they gave us comfortis to treat Kato and Mini2. Sadly I didn't see the earlier post and I crashed it and they didn't touch it even when it was mixed with their fave food.
I will ask more today and make them pieces. It smells horribly so I don't blame them.

We couldn't catch Mini2 today but we will keep trying for a week until we need to return the trap. We are trying a no violent way but I suspect it won't be possible. As now both females are neutered there's no risk of pregnancy but I'm concern about the fleas.

Norachan, we cannot let the ferals into the living room at all times because one of our cats will attack them nonstop. The oldest one doesn't care as much and she remains with them. The current issue are the fleas. Yesterday I left them come in and today the living room and Chihiro had flea, which we no longer had.

 

[Norachan]

That's great news about Mini 1.

I've never used Comfortis. The web site says it's beef flavoured and chewable. Try getting some dry treats, like Crispy Kisses, and leaving a handful of dry treats with the flea tablet. They might eat it that way.

A few tips for trapping;

Wire or prop the trap door open so there is no way it can close accidentally. You need to leave it in the room with the cats so they get used to seeing it as part of their furniture. Cats are sometime reluctant to step on the wire cage bottom, so cut a piece of cardboard to size so they can walk on that instead.

I try to feed in the trap for at least a week before trapping. Start with food just in front of the open door and gradually move the dish further inside, until they are willing to go all the way in and eat after about a week.

You could also leave treats inside or sprinkle catnip on the cardboard trap floor.

Does the trap have a plate that the cats step on to trigger the door? If they won't step on the plate try using a 2 liter pet bottle full of water to prop the door open with. It's easy to close the door by propping it open, tying a piece of rope around the prop and jerking the prop away when the cat is inside. This means you won't trap the wrong cat by mistake, as can happen when using the plate to trigger the door closed.

I understand that you need to get the fleas under control first, but the feral family will become more used to you if they can see you regularly. Could you make some kind of screen door so they can see into the living room but your cats can't touch them?

Good luck trapping Mini 2

 

[Solcita]

Hi Norachan, thank you for your words!

The trap doesn't have a plate to step on, it has some kind of hook where you should leave food hanging (it looks like a fish hook actually). We placed it but secured, so no matter what they do the trap won't close. From now on they will be eating only inside.
We also set up a way to trigger the trap with a cord (which is already attached so when we eventually trap him nothing really changes). We can see their moves in their room by the pet camera installed.

When we were not around, Kato or Mini2 went inside the trap to eat the wet food we placed. It's also full of catnip. Also one of them ate the Comfortis, not all of it, but most. We bought more to try to apply it again (we can give them up to 5 times the dosis without poisoning, so no worries about who actually ate it).
We were told to try to place it inside smelly food like cooked fish, so we will give it a try again tomorrow.

The minute Mini1 returned, she went inside to eat and even napped.
We think Mini2 will go inside by following her as he normally do (Mini1 is braver and she is always the first one to explore).


The other thing Mini2 tends to do when he is afraid is he goes inside the litter box (it has a roof) and stays there. One day we found him sleeping inside.
So to trap them at first we put the litter box inside a cage but we eventually didn't use it. But if it gets to difficult we will just end up trapping him inside the litter box.

Regarding a fence. The ferals had fence doors:
The problem is that we cannot use them as usual, because Mini1 in no time will start climbing it to come to the living room with us.
Kato on the other hand tries to go from below, and she learned how to freaking open the seals we use to secure them.
So they DO want to spend time with us. Except Mini2 who would stay on the top of the cat tree crying until Kato calls him. Eventually he does come (when we have the doors open) and stays next to her. I honestly think he is getting more and more skittish. Both Kato and Mini1 comfort him all the time.

Once the fleas are under control we can bring them back again to the living room but as Chihiro (our oldest) is allergyc and she's been having very bad reaction, we cannot keep fleas around her.

We will see how it goes on. We have to give the fleas pill to Mini2 and Kato, and then trap Mini2 to neuter him.
No more rush as all females are neutered but I think it will help to lower his hormones...

BTW; Comfortis seems to be very good at killing all stages of fleas: fleas, worms and eggs. But it's expensive and can only be purchased through the vet.
On the other hand, the other brand, Capstar is WAY cheaper but it only kills fleas... I was thinking of using Comfortis for the next 3 months in all the cats, and once we are sure the fleas are gone, we can keep Capstar to mantain them away... would this work?
Frontline is NOT keeping Chihiro clean, which is very surprising to me... I have been combing her daily and daily I get fleas away. So we will administer Comfortis to her as well.

On the other hand we bought the fleas trap (the one that looks like a tent with a light) and it doesn't work. It works to call the fleas, but the glue inside is not strong enough to keep them there. We placed it and one hour later we could see 5 fleas... one hour later there was no fleas... so they go inside but they go out very easily.
It does call them, so what I do is I go around and kill the fleas around the tent.
So the hallways is rather clean of fleas as they are all hanging around the device.

We also got the organic repellent and I have been using it in Chihiro's clothes, as she still has fleas, I'm not sure what to think... but I am honestly spraying it around all the time, on the cat tree, around the litter boxes, etc... As of right now what is helping the most is the daily vaccum... it's the first time in my life I have seen flea eggs and worms... and vinegar does kill the worms (we tried today) so I'm not sure why it didn't kill them before when we were spraying vinegar like crazy...
Finally this week the food grade diatomaceous Earth should be arriving. This is the second we bought, as the first one got rejected by Japanese Customs due to the word "food".. we will see if this one gets through....

Ganbarimasuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!!
Thank youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!

 

[Solcita]

Some updates!
Today we tried to administer the Comfortis to Kato and Mini2, so we prepared only one to see if they would eat it.
We opened the door and even when we left little food last night, Kato was more interested in coming to the living room than to eat, so she and Mini1 spent a few hours in our living room with us.
While Mini2 decided to stay in the cattree. We left the fish with the Comfortis but he ate very little, basically he stood by himself totally cool and relaxed, he slept most of the time.
I was surprised that they didn't react at the closed door and didn't care about not being all together.

In the meantime, Kato learned from our oldest, and now likes to sleep on chairs.
Mini1 tried to follow but she couldn't so she stayed on the floor


They were both very relaxed and happy... and still with fleas... we will see how long they will last with minimun food before eating the Comfortis..:!

 

[Norachan]

Thank you for the updates and the pictures. They all look very sleek and shiny.

I've used those fish hook traps too. I found it quite difficult to get the bait to stay on the hook, I almost trapped myself a few times!



Propping the door open worked a lot better for me. I'm actually hoping to trap a tom cat this week, so I can get him neutered and vaccinated. Wish me luck!



So, you had your resident cats and the feral family in the room at the same time? That's great progress. shadowsrescue had a great set up with a netted door when she was working with her feral cats. Maybe she can give you some suggestions?

If they are getting used to each other without the door that's even better though.

I think just leaving a little of something very tasty with the flea meds in might work. I'm so glad we've never had to deal with fleas, it must be a nightmare.

Do you have a neuter appointment for Mini 2? I hope he will cooperate.

Ganbatte ne!

 

[shadowsrescue]

I used wire shelving to make a barrier. At our local home improvement store I bought wire shelving and had them cut it for me. I have one barrier that is 4' tall and another that is 6' tall. The shelving comes in 12' sections. The 4' is much easier to move around, but some cats can still jump it. It is then attached with zip ties. I will show you a picture of my set up and then a link to the instructions.

IMG_5398.JPG

• shadowsrescue
• Feb 5, 2017

How to Build a Free-Standing Cat, Dog, or Pet Gate Cheaply, Without Tools

 

[Solcita]

Oh girls thank you very much for your replies!!

Norachan , the ferals can spend time with us in the living room while only Chihiro is there (the oldest) as she tolerates them.
What annoys her is the staring. Both Kato and Mini1 are in love with her. In the past they would try to talk w her but as she is deft they never got a reply... Then they would follow her around which really upset her. Lately Kato tries to sleep next to her, which really freaked her out. But she is becoming more and more used to them and almost no hissing at all. I think she realized they are not going anywhere, so shoganai.
Yesterday only Mini1 stared at her for a while and Kato started to ignore her.

Ponyo on the other hand, hates any animal and would jump to attack them at simple sight. We see her attacking the windows if any animal passes by our yard and she's been like that since she was a baby. She used to love my parents small dogs though...

So Ponyo love's taking naps in our bed, so when she falls asleep, I would close the mesh door towards our bedroom and let the ferals free. Most of the time Chihiro is in the living room and sometimes she is in the room. However she doesn't like the closed door so she would normally ask to come out (Ponyo doesn't care as she knows that eventually when she wants to come out we will open the door).

None of our cats climbs the mesh, I think as they know if they ask, we will open them.

We used to have that door on one side of the kitchen, while the other kitchen door remains.

If we leave the normal door open and the mesh door closed, Mini1 would climb the mesh and get into the kitchen through the top. Even if we put it almost touching the superior part her climbing would make it go down enough for her to come. she LOVES climbing that thing, she does it even when it's open just for the fun of it.
Kato on the other hand starts pushing the bottom, and eventually opens the zippers and comes from the bottom.

I used to have the door open as much as possible to give them the chance to see us most of the time, but lately that mesh door is useless and the reality is that the normal door remains closed unless the ferals are free.

However yesterday, we closed the door and left Mini2 alone, and it was the first time ever that nobody freaked out. They couldn't care less.
Mini2 just chilled out and slept most of the time. Zero crying
Not sure if it's only my ideas but since Mini1 came back from the vet, Mini2 became more independent... He is not attach to Kato as before... And actually he is sleeping alone INSIDE the trap!!!! I think we will trap him tmw morning and take him to be fixed (no need for appointment anymore they know we will bring him whenever we can catch him) He already ate the Comfortis (while Kato keeps refusing to do so)

@shadowrescue, do you think a vertical mesh door would help better as they won't be able to climb it?

Thank you guys again!!!

 

[rubysmama]

Solcita : I've made it here from @walli's thread. First off, thanks for bringing Kato and her kittens inside. Sorry though that their presence caused issues for your other cats, particularly Ponyo.

I've never socialized feral cats, but do enjoy reading the threads and following their progress. So though I probably won't post much, I'll be reading.

Few thoughts:
1) great that Min1 is spayed.
2) not sure if trapping Min2 in the litter box is a good idea or not. My concern is that he might then associate the litter box with bad things, and stop using it.
3) do the kittens have actual names?

 

[Solcita]

Hi rubysmama , thank you for stopping by!

1) Thank you! We've been wanting to spayed them all but first they were too young and then life.. also we were told both kittens were girls so we didn't worry much but when I saw the nuggets I freaked out and booked as soon as we could and we kept rescheduling until trapping the 1. We will try to bring 2 tmw...

2) Mini2 is currently sleeping in the trap... Second night in a row. So tmw morning we will give him breakfast inside, leave the trap armed, while checking through the petcam and will trap him as soon as he is away from the gate.

3) The kittens never got names because we always intended to give them up for adoption as soon as they were socialized. We did have a couple interested in both and hubby cried for a week until they decided not to adopt because of how ferals they were.... After that I stopped "advertising" them. Mini1 does recognize the word "Uno" (1 in Spanish, our Native language) as her name though... As Mini2 is skittish he doesn't interact much with us so I don't think he recognized any name calling. And Kato is Kato and she knows it. She loves to ignore is though lol

Crossing fingers for tmw!!!

 

[rubysmama]

We will try to bring 2 tmw...

Good luck.

Mini1 does recognize the word "Uno" (1 in Spanish, our Native language) as her name though...

I guess she has a name then.

As Mini2 is skittish he doesn't interact much with us so I don't think he recognized any name calling.

I wonder if you give him a name, and start saying it all the time. Like "Kitty, want a treat", "Kitty, want to play", or just "Hi Kitty", if that would help him in his socialization. And if he ever does get adopted, and the new "parents" don't like the name, they can always change it, as cats quickly learn new names. Just a thought...

 

[walli]

I call that progress! Keep going girl!