Help with calories

Mac and Cats

TCS Member
Thread starter
Alpha Cat
Joined
May 31, 2022
Messages
379
Purraise
501
Hi. Our 13 year old Tuxedo lady is overweight. She weighs a whopping 11.60 pounds, which I know does not seem like a lot, but it is quite a lot for her. She should weigh around 8-9 pounds. She has very bad arthritis and is on Solensia (it has helped) and Gabapentin twice daily. She is also on Methimazole for hyperthyroid. They have recently tested her (about 2-3 weeks ago) and determined she is on the right dosage. She is not very active. We discovered a growth under her skin two weeks ago and she has been seen by the vet. They will be doing a fine needle aspiration next weekend. In addition, they also found something more concerning--a leasion on her gums. The vet discribed the leason as looking like "cobblestone" and said that she was more concerned about that one than the lump we found near her shoulder blade.

They will be cleaning her teeth next week and will remove that and send it out to a lab at the same time as testing the lump. The lump feels like a marble, but kind of squishy and is right below/next to her right shoulder blade depending on how she is laying. She doesn't appear to be bothered by it when I feel it, which is very unusual for her since prior to her Solensia shots she would never allow us to pet her back. She now allows it with the Solensia shots. The doctor said it COULD be related to her microchip, but also said she has never seen anything like that happen before.

She was previously my parents' cat and they had her since she was around 3. They only fed her dry food. When we took her over, about 7 years ago, we still provided her with dry food, but also offered her wet food. She always preferred the dry. I have been encouraging her to eat more wet food over the years and was finally able to eliminate it from her diet completely about 2 weeks ago. I had her down to about a half a tablespoon prior to that. She also has CKD, but doesn't really like the prescription food. I've been giving her two Hills wet foods that are fairly low in phosphorous and she seems to like them. She has been getting two cans a day (66 calories each, so 132 calories per day), plus, she also eats the "leftovers" of our other two cats' foods in the evening, which I would guess don't amount to more than 30-50 calories for her since the other cats also eat them.

I weighed her about 2-ish weeks ago and then again tonight and she has gained weight! What is going on?! Is it really possible that she has gained weight at 182 calories per day? I am going to eliminate leaving the leftovers and move them to where I know she cannot/won't go because maybe she is eating more than I realize? But I still feel like 132 calories is not enough for her even if she were 8 or 9 pounds. I've tried to look up how many calories she should be eating, but none of the calculators account for age or activity. I think I will have her T4 retested when she goes in next week. Could it be the two possible cancer sources, plus her lack of activity? Both my husband and I have noticed a small change in her since her last Solensia injection and I suspect it is due to the lump near her shoulder and the abrasion on her gum. But I obviously could be wrong. The small change is so small that probably most "normal" and non-paranoid cat owners would not notice. She has just been a little more lethargic and a little more cligny at night (she has been sleeping on me every night), which she is NOT usually a clingy cat. She is usually very bitchy and I always describe her as "She is the type of cat that people who hate cats think all cats are like." She likes pets on her own terms and not otherwise. Likes company, but she does not usually want you to touch her except for a few head scratches and nothing more.

I have not called the vet because our appointment is next week and she is still eating/drinking/urinating/pooping as normal. The only thing is she is acting a little more lethargic and clingy while I sleep. Sort of like how she acted right before she was diagnosed with hyperthryoid. I think I will call the vet tomorrow, but I know they won't have any available appointments until the appointment we already have. Should I be rushing her to an urgent care/ER? Or does this just sound like arthritis issues? Does anyone have advice on how many calories I should be feeding her? I don't really have any faith in our vet's suggestions regarding calories/nutrition as they always suggest a "Senior" cat food if she won't eat the kidney prescription and all of the "senior" foods I have looked into (which is a lot) always have really high phosphorous levels. So, that proves to me they don't exactly know what they are talking about in regards to food/nutrition. Any advice would be appreciated! Thanks in advance!
 

Babypaws

TCS Member
Super Cat
Joined
May 31, 2018
Messages
705
Purraise
774
Location
Massachusetts
I agree with you regarding the vets not really knowing that much on what the cats should be eating I’m kind of in the same situation. I have a 19-year-old cat that I was told is in stage three kidney. Been searching for some kind of wet cat food that has low Phosphorus. They told me because she has lost so much weight to feed her hills, urgent care a/d 5.5 oz can and she should be eating a full can a day. She refuses to eat it on her own so I had to force feed her but there’s no way I can get her to eat a full can in a day so I try to offer her some fancy feast or frisky food, which she’ll eat on her own, but she only eats a teaspoon at a time. went to the pet store today and picked up six or seven different types to see which one she could eat on her own.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3

Mac and Cats

TCS Member
Thread starter
Alpha Cat
Joined
May 31, 2022
Messages
379
Purraise
501
I agree with you regarding the vets not really knowing that much on what the cats should be eating I’m kind of in the same situation. I have a 19-year-old cat that I was told is in stage three kidney. Been searching for some kind of wet cat food that has low Phosphorus. They told me because she has lost so much weight to feed her hills, urgent care a/d 5.5 oz can and she should be eating a full can a day. She refuses to eat it on her own so I had to force feed her but there’s no way I can get her to eat a full can in a day so I try to offer her some fancy feast or frisky food, which she’ll eat on her own, but she only eats a teaspoon at a time. went to the pet store today and picked up six or seven different types to see which one she could eat on her own.
If you need help finding low phosphorus foods, I made this post that has a lot of resources. I have done a lot of research on this as I have two cats that should be on kidney food, but are not fans. Hills does have a lot of lower phosphorus foods, but they aren't always calorie dense. I also have a cat with IBD (or possibly SCL) that should probably be on lower phosphrous food, but he is is picky I am just feeding him anything he will eat, which changes daily/weekly even with steroids. Feel free to message me if you need any help. I've obsessed over this for the last two years with our IBD cat before we discovered his inflammation issue. So, I can recommend a lot of resources to help you make a decision. Ultimately, what matters is that they eat! Good luck to you!

EDIT: PS. 19 is great! You've clearly been taking good care of him! If it were me, I would probably just feed him whatever he was willing to eat at this point. We lost 3 cats in a span of 18 months over the pandemic (the oldest was 18 and the youngest was 10). So, I am at the point where I am just exhausted with the food issues and will be happy if they just eat in general. Our tuxedo lady doesn't have appetite issues, but I feel like I am at a loss with figuring out what her calorie intake should be.
 

FeebysOwner

TCS Member
Staff Member
Forum Helper
Joined
Jun 13, 2018
Messages
22,761
Purraise
33,920
Location
Central FL (Born in OH)
I am not sure what you are describing warrants an ER trip, but you know your cat best in terms of her changes and whether they are alarming enough to not wait until the regular vet appt next week.

I would first off use a body condition chart to assess her weight, rather than just relying on the scales. I included one below for you. Maybe she is not as overweight as you think? I cannot explain the calories she is eating in terms of it being enough to cause her to gain weight. Certainly, her activity level will play a role, but one would not think so much that it would enable her to gain weight on 132 - 182 calories a day. Even my 18+ yo cat who weighs almost 13 pounds maintains her weight on about 250 calories a day, which equates to expending about 20 calories per pound of weight - and all she does is sleep for the most part. Your cat would be expending more like 15 calories per pound, which is on the low side, but not necessarily unrealistic given metabolism rates can vary.

I'll be curious about what her T-4 level is with her upcoming appt - maybe her T-4 level is too low which can attribute to things like lethargy and weight gain.

CKD can also affect her energy level, particularly if she has some degree of toxins building up in her system due to compromised kidneys. Blood work will tell you the creatinine, BUN, and phosphorus levels. The higher, the more likely they are impacting her energy level. As I am sure you know, she may be to the point of needing sub-Q fluids to help flush the toxins from her system - assuming she is not getting them already. Or perhaps she needs a phosphorus binder to help lower her phosphorus level?

Are they planning on doing some x-rays to see if there is something behind the microchip causing the lump? I do know that microchips can move. If they would be able to determine it is in fact affiliated with the chip, then fine needle aspiration would be unnecessary, I would hope.

Body-Condition-Feline-Chart.jpg
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #5

Mac and Cats

TCS Member
Thread starter
Alpha Cat
Joined
May 31, 2022
Messages
379
Purraise
501
I am not sure what you are describing warrants an ER trip, but you know your cat best in terms of her changes and whether they are alarming enough to not wait until the regular vet appt next week.

I would first off use a body condition chart to assess her weight, rather than just relying on the scales. I included one below for you. Maybe she is not as overweight as you think? I cannot explain the calories she is eating in terms of it being enough to cause her to gain weight. Certainly, her activity level will play a role, but one would not think so much that it would enable her to gain weight on 132 - 182 calories a day. Even my 18+ yo cat who weighs almost 13 pounds maintains her weight on about 250 calories a day, which equates to expending about 20 calories per pound of weight - and all she does is sleep for the most part. Your cat would be expending more like 15 calories per pound, which is on the low side, but not necessarily unrealistic given metabolism rates can vary.

I'll be curious about what her T-4 level is with her upcoming appt - maybe her T-4 level is too low which can attribute to things like lethargy and weight gain.

CKD can also affect her energy level, particularly if she has some degree of toxins building up in her system due to compromised kidneys. Blood work will tell you the creatinine, BUN, and phosphorus levels. The higher, the more likely they are impacting her energy level. As I am sure you know, she may be to the point of needing sub-Q fluids to help flush the toxins from her system - assuming she is not getting them already. Or perhaps she needs a phosphorus binder to help lower her phosphorus level?

Are they planning on doing some x-rays to see if there is something behind the microchip causing the lump? I do know that microchips can move. If they would be able to determine it is in fact affiliated with the chip, then fine needle aspiration would be unnecessary, I would hope.

View attachment 447235
Thanks for your response. They plan to do a quick ultrasound on it while she is knocked out. I'm not sure which (x-ray vs ultrasound) would give them more information. I assume ultrasound since they suggested that and not an x-ray. When she was at the vet last month, they did use the microchip finder thing and it did go off right about where the lump is, but that doesn't necessarily mean the microchip is the cause of it--it could just be in the same general area. They will also be testing her kidney levels next week. Although, her levels were not high enough to warrant intimidate concern when they tested her about 2 months ago.

She is for sure overweight, unfortunately. She has a very petite frame and is sort of short and stubby. Our vet said she would like to see her at 9 pounds (so she is 2+ pounds overweight according to that). I will ask our vet about a recommended calorie intake even though I don't have a lot of faith in their nutrition suggestions. I have microchip feeders, but unfortunately, I have not been successful at transitioning our oldest over to it as I don't think he likes going under the bar. So, I'm stuck with juggling getting him to eat and removing the food when he is done. I know she has been eating his when I leave it out too long. So, I have tried to be extra careful this week and will continue to do so. Her activity level is practically nothing. She mostly sleeps all day and sometimes moves to different locations. Our vet said that the Solensia could also be less effective over time, which I hope is not the case. So, I'm wondering if 2 extra pounds could contribute to more pain or perhaps if the Solensia has become less effective since she has been on it for 4 months. Or perhaps it's a combination of the two. I will keep an eye on her until her appointment and take her in earlier if I think something warrants it. Thanks again for your response!
 

mrsgreenjeens

Every Life Should Have Nine Cats
Staff Member
Advisor
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
16,465
Purraise
7,262
Location
Arizona
Extra weight can definitely contribute to arthritis issues. How much did she actually gain in this two week period? Cats are so small that if they haven't pooped or peed right before you weigh them they will weigh heavier than if they had done those things before they were last weighed, So she might not have actually gained anything, it might be temporary weight, if that makes sense.

I will tell you that I have a 14 year old who tends towards heaviness, so has been on a perpetual diet has entire life. I have to watch him like a hawk, and always feed him in a separate room from the others, then I make sure I am in the room with the others to make sure he doesn't slip in and steal food. To get him to lose weight, we had him on 18 calories per pound and it was still very hard! Our Vet said we couldn't safely go below that amount of food, but she advised us to get him to exercise more. Of course, with a lazy cat, that isn't always easy. When he was younger, he did enjoy running for his treats, which were very teeny pieces of freeze dried chicken, and I think he only ran for them to try to beat the other cats from getting them first :lol:. Now that he's older, he doesn't really run for treats anymore, but I can sometimes get him to follow me around by carrying his food with me and sweet talking him. I go up and down the stairs with it and he follows me around, yelling at me to give it to him. It's kind of cute (to me, probably not to him) Also, I feed him wet food only, and the carb content is almost nil. I think that's the key.
 

FeebysOwner

TCS Member
Staff Member
Forum Helper
Joined
Jun 13, 2018
Messages
22,761
Purraise
33,920
Location
Central FL (Born in OH)
Odds are your vet, and probably many others, use a calculator process similar to what is included in this article (see link below). Using that data, your cat is already eating what would be considered the 'norm' for getting a cat to lose weight. So, I am not sure this is going to help you much. And I cannot imagine how you could possibly lower her calories and not potentially cause nutritional repercussions. I found a few other comparable articles and they are all pretty much operating off the same calculations as this one is.

My cat just got her 6th injection of Solensia, and I haven't noticed any loss in efficacy (knock on wood). But she was put on it due a limp that was/is resolved after the 3rd injection. I did not really notice it doing much for her in the way of getting her to be more active or to sleep less. Of course, all cats are different and will be impacted accordingly by any meds, including Solensia. There are weight ranges for the dosage of Solensia, but I think they are pretty broad.
Cat Calorie Calculator: How to Calculate Your Cat’s Daily Calorie Intake - PetPlace
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #8

Mac and Cats

TCS Member
Thread starter
Alpha Cat
Joined
May 31, 2022
Messages
379
Purraise
501
Extra weight can definitely contribute to arthritis issues. How much did she actually gain in this two week period? Cats are so small that if they haven't pooped or peed right before you weigh them they will weigh heavier than if they had done those things before they were last weighed, So she might not have actually gained anything, it might be temporary weight, if that makes sense.

I will tell you that I have a 14 year old who tends towards heaviness, so has been on a perpetual diet has entire life. I have to watch him like a hawk, and always feed him in a separate room from the others, then I make sure I am in the room with the others to make sure he doesn't slip in and steal food. To get him to lose weight, we had him on 18 calories per pound and it was still very hard! Our Vet said we couldn't safely go below that amount of food, but she advised us to get him to exercise more. Of course, with a lazy cat, that isn't always easy. When he was younger, he did enjoy running for his treats, which were very teeny pieces of freeze dried chicken, and I think he only ran for them to try to beat the other cats from getting them first :lol:. Now that he's older, he doesn't really run for treats anymore, but I can sometimes get him to follow me around by carrying his food with me and sweet talking him. I go up and down the stairs with it and he follows me around, yelling at me to give it to him. It's kind of cute (to me, probably not to him) Also, I feed him wet food only, and the carb content is almost nil. I think that's the key.
Thanks for your response. The "gain" was only a little bit, but you're probably right. I weighed her toward the end of the day, so that may be part of the problem as well. I have taken her off the dry food completely and before that, she was only getting about half a table spoon a day to satisfy her "crunchy" desire. I will continue to weigh her once a week and see how it goes. I know she had gained weight at her last visit, but I'm not sure by how much. I will just continue on with keeping the other cats' foods away from her (even "left overs") and hopefully she will go down slowly. I am hoping that the Solensia continues to work for her because it has really helped her a lot. I may have misheard or be misremembering our vet saying that, so I'll ask her about it next week as well. Thanks again for your reply!
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9

Mac and Cats

TCS Member
Thread starter
Alpha Cat
Joined
May 31, 2022
Messages
379
Purraise
501
Odds are your vet, and probably many others, use a calculator process similar to what is included in this article (see link below). Using that data, your cat is already eating what would be considered the 'norm' for getting a cat to lose weight. So, I am not sure this is going to help you much. And I cannot imagine how you could possibly lower her calories and not potentially cause nutritional repercussions. I found a few other comparable articles and they are all pretty much operating off the same calculations as this one is.

My cat just got her 6th injection of Solensia, and I haven't noticed any loss in efficacy (knock on wood). But she was put on it due a limp that was/is resolved after the 3rd injection. I did not really notice it doing much for her in the way of getting her to be more active or to sleep less. Of course, all cats are different and will be impacted accordingly by any meds, including Solensia. There are weight ranges for the dosage of Solensia, but I think they are pretty broad.
Cat Calorie Calculator: How to Calculate Your Cat’s Daily Calorie Intake - PetPlace
Thank you! That website is more helpful than the others I have found. According to that chart, she should be eating about 185 calories per day. So, I will aim for that. I may be misremembering about what the vet said about Solensia, so I will ask about that again at her next visit. It has helped her a lot.
 

daftcat75

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Sep 7, 2018
Messages
12,715
Purraise
25,266
My Betty is 11 lbs as of last Sunday's weigh-in. 🤦‍♂️ She should be closer to 10.5 according to the vet, judging by her body condition. She's been on steroids for IBD since August and a lower dose (2.5 mg/day) since October. She's still eating the very carby Hills I/D chicken and rice with vegetables and gravy. She is not very active and is also taking gabapentin for suspected arthritis. We don't know how old she is. But we think she's likely older than the five years the shelter thought she was. She gains weight when her weekly intake is above 140 calories. So yes, it's possible that given your cat's age and health conditions that 185 may be too much for her. It's also possible, as I am hoping with Betty, that switching to a lower carb, higher protein food will allow her to eat more food without gaining as much weight. I feed her four times a day and she gets about 5 oz over the course of the day--only wet food. My last cat, Krista, was a smaller cat. And when she got off dry and on a high protein, all wet diet, she could eat 7 or 8 oz a day and maintain a svelte 9 lbs frame. She was also a more active cat. So, as the saying goes, every cat is different and one chart or calculator does not fit all cats. The first step would be a food journal to know for sure how much she's eating. Then you would want to reduce her calories by no more than 5 or 10% for a couple of weeks and do another weigh-in. For everyone's sanity, I don't recommend weighing her more than once a week. I bought a baby scale off Amazon and lure Betty on it every Sunday morning with a few extra treats. As soon as she starts eating them, I lift her butt up and get her all in and three treats is usually enough to keep her there long enough to get a reading.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11

Mac and Cats

TCS Member
Thread starter
Alpha Cat
Joined
May 31, 2022
Messages
379
Purraise
501
My Betty is 11 lbs as of last Sunday's weigh-in. 🤦‍♂️ She should be closer to 10.5 according to the vet, judging by her body condition. She's been on steroids for IBD since August and a lower dose (2.5 mg/day) since October. She's still eating the very carby Hills I/D chicken and rice with vegetables and gravy. She is not very active and is also taking gabapentin for suspected arthritis. We don't know how old she is. But we think she's likely older than the five years the shelter thought she was. She gains weight when her weekly intake is above 140 calories. So yes, it's possible that given your cat's age and health conditions that 185 may be too much for her. It's also possible, as I am hoping with Betty, that switching to a lower carb, higher protein food will allow her to eat more food without gaining as much weight. I feed her four times a day and she gets about 5 oz over the course of the day--only wet food. My last cat, Krista, was a smaller cat. And when she got off dry and on a high protein, all wet diet, she could eat 7 or 8 oz a day and maintain a svelte 9 lbs frame. She was also a more active cat. So, as the saying goes, every cat is different and one chart or calculator does not fit all cats. The first step would be a food journal to know for sure how much she's eating. Then you would want to reduce her calories by no more than 5 or 10% for a couple of weeks and do another weigh-in. For everyone's sanity, I don't recommend weighing her more than once a week. I bought a baby scale off Amazon and lure Betty on it every Sunday morning with a few extra treats. As soon as she starts eating them, I lift her butt up and get her all in and three treats is usually enough to keep her there long enough to get a reading.
Thanks for the advice! I'm only giving her wet food at this point and completely stopped dry food about 2 weeks ago (she was only getting half a tablespoon per day). Yesterday she ate 2.5 cans (3oz cans) which is 165 calories total. It was about all she wanted in the day until I went to bed. I pick up all the food at night now as I'm trying to get them on a feeding schedule, which I have been unsuccessful at thus far, but I'm still working on it. She also gets one tube treat and half another liquid treat for twice daily pills. So, I will need to be mindful of those calories too. I think I will stick with the 2.5 cans for a few weeks as I'm really not sure how much she was eating before when she was also helping herself to her brother's food (which is also higher calories). So, I'll see how she does with this amount and decide if I need to reduce it a bit in a few weeks after another weigh.

After I wrote this post, I notice that while she is still pooping, the amount was very small and her poops seemed a little small/hard. So, I'm wondering if she was a little constipated and that's why she was acting the way she was? She already takes daily probiotics, but since I noticed, I have been giving her 1/8th teaspoon of Miralax twice a day since. While her poops haven't changed drastically, I do think it has helped her to feel better because she has perked up quite a bit and was even playing with the track ball scratcher until our 1 year old invited himself to play too (she is not a fan of others playing with her). I also got a baby scale about a month ago and have been trying to use it to weigh all of the cats once every week or two weeks. We have another cat that was very underweight until we got him on Steroids for possible IBD (or could be SCL), so I'm trying to keep his weight in check too. Thanks for your response and advice!
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #12

Mac and Cats

TCS Member
Thread starter
Alpha Cat
Joined
May 31, 2022
Messages
379
Purraise
501
Update on our lady girl: the mass they removed from her mouth is a mast cell tumor and is cancerous. The doctor said that these are very rare in cats to have in their mouth and in fact only 4 cats have ever been recorded to have them in their mouth (of course this would be my cat to have this). She said that there is no evidence of any masses or anything in her lungs or spleen from the x-ray they took on that day, which is good news. Basically she said that often even if there are still a few cells left in the area, they don't usually come back. So, she said we just need to keep an eye and if we notice any other lumps or bumps on her body that we should get those checked out as well, but for now, they've done all that they would recommend anyway (removing it and doing an x-ray on her spleen/lungs). The lump that they tested near her shoulder blade came out as fatty tissue, not cancer and I can feel that it is already absorbing into her body (meaning it's getting smaller).

Also, update on her calories: the doctor said I should be feeding her around 166 for weight loss to 9 pounds and 180 for weight loss to 10 pounds. So, for now I will just aim for somewhere within that range. We sort of lost some time due to her surgery as I was letting her eat whatever and however much she wanted for a few days after surgery (she was a little picky for a day or two).
 

mrsgreenjeens

Every Life Should Have Nine Cats
Staff Member
Advisor
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
16,465
Purraise
7,262
Location
Arizona
Oh my goodness! So she is good to go now it seems. Not even any chemo or radiation treatments?

It's good you now have the amount of calories to feed for her weight loss. That's helpful. Good luck and keep us posted on how it's going.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #14

Mac and Cats

TCS Member
Thread starter
Alpha Cat
Joined
May 31, 2022
Messages
379
Purraise
501
Oh my goodness! So she is good to go now it seems. Not even any chemo or radiation treatments?

It's good you now have the amount of calories to feed for her weight loss. That's helpful. Good luck and keep us posted on how it's going.
They did not recommend any chemo or anything. They said that we have already done what they would recommend. She goes in again on Monday for a Solensia injection and a check up on her gum situation. So, I will double check then! But it sounds like all they would do is remove it and do an x-ray on her lungs/spleen to make sure there aren't any other growths and as long as there is nothing on the x-ray, she is good? That is my understanding anyway. I will make sure I understand correctly on Monday when we have our visit!
 
Top