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Have you seen this?

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 
So..
I've seen this before, and it creeped me out, and so I decided to never see it again. BUT-a friend sent it in an email today. And I didn't know what it was, and opened it again, and watched it, as interesting as it is.
Just wierd is all...
http://www.freedomunderground.org/me...e/pentagon.php
post #2 of 25
Yes, I've seen it, and I've seen that much longer (over an hour) one Loose Change too. If anything they said were really true, it would be astonishing.

However, I've seen some excellent rebuttals, by trustworthy, non-governmental people and magazines, and a lot of what they say, what they leave out, and how they interpret things is just wrong.

I don't believe the official story of 9/11 hook-line-and-sinker, but I'd say it's closer to what happened than that for sure. There are probably things they can't tell us for security reasons, just like stories of unsolved murders are not fully disclosed as the details are helpful in proving someone guilty.
post #3 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
Yes, I've seen it, and I've seen that much longer (over an hour) one Loose Change too. If anything they said were really true, it would be astonishing.

However, I've seen some excellent rebuttals, by trustworthy, non-governmental people and magazines, and a lot of what they say, what they leave out, and how they interpret things is just wrong.

I don't believe the official story of 9/11 hook-line-and-sinker, but I'd say it's closer to what happened than that for sure. There are probably things they can't tell us for security reasons, just like stories of unsolved murders are not fully disclosed as the details are helpful in proving someone guilty.
I haven't seen the Loose Change one. I had a friend that was REAL BIG into proving 9/11 all sorts of wrong, and kept telling me to watch it so I could be more informed about what really happened. So, that's why I havent watched it yet. Because it ALL creeps me out.
post #4 of 25
I watched the video. It really creeped me out. What was it that they were trying to imply 'really' happened? I was kind of waiting for it but it never happend. There was one mention of a missle, so I'm guessing that's it? You know, they never talk about the pentagon when they talk about 911. You just hear about the towers and the plane that crashed into the field. Creepy.
post #5 of 25
I wont get going, but this video and others like it, all the websites, and the "academics" behind it are a bunch of idiots. It is scary to think that these fools teach our young people. Look up the Rule called Occams Razor. It applies here. Do you understand the scope of the "conspiracy" that is alleged. It would have had to include:

all the major tv networks that filmed the WTC being hit

the airlines who would have "fabricated" pictures of terrorists going through security, and cockpit recordings

the NY Fire Dept

all of the people who spoke to loved ones from the planes before they were killed

the entire administration in govt and countless thousands that would have had to be in on this

al queda who taped PRIOR to 9-11 its intentions to execute this attack

Give me a break. Just on the pentagon issue what happened to the people on this flight???? Did they just disappear? Did martians kidnap them? Is Ted Olsen the former Solicitor General of the US pretending to mourn his wife, Barabara Olsen?

Hey sorry to sound harsh, but this stuff really gets me mad. It is so blatantly rediculous, that I cannot believe that some people cant understand what hooey it is.

So spools of wire were left standing? Who cares? Would anyone have believed that anybody would have been left alive after the gargantuan WTC fell on them...while they were on the 6th floor? Well it happened, and it is just one of the things that can occur in an event like this. If the plane hit the building head on AS IT DID, why would you even expect spools of wire in front of the building to be disturbed? The conspiracy theorists should take their tin foil hats off, and be realsitic about this: IT WAS A TERRORIST ATTACK ON OUR COUNTRY BY PEOPLE WHO USED JET FUEL LADEN PLANES AS TACTICAL WEAPONS, PERIOD.
post #6 of 25
I also love the part in some of the "theories" where the people on flight 93 landed in Cleveland and were taken into the Nasa Glenn place near the airport.

I'm sorry, but I lived about 1 1/2 miles from Hopkins airport, and that is just so ludicrous. For one thing, 480, one of the busiest highways on west-side Cleveland, is RIGHT THERE, and nobody saw a bunch of people walking across the air field, which would be something you'd notice. For another, where did they go from there? Brookpark/Berea is not the kind of place that nobody would notice a bunch of mysterious people showing up. They did evacuate downtown Cleveland, because the plane flew over, but that is the extent of it.


And here is the Popular Mechanics rebuttal of the conspiracy theories:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...e/1227842.html

totally worth the read!
post #7 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
And here is the Popular Mechanics rebuttal of the conspiracy theories:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...e/1227842.html

totally worth the read!
Thanks for providing that link - the article is excellent.
post #8 of 25
Thanks, jcat. You know, when I first watched Loose Change, it almost got me. I think one of the reasons that people find it hard to accept what really happened, because it shouldn't have. It is painfully apparent that things went wrong, and caused an astounding loss of innocent life. We should have been prepared, we shouldn't have assumed it could never happen to us, we should have been better organized to deal with the reality of the threats of the current world today, and not with Cold War threats. Some people seem to find it easier to decide that our government was against us, not just that ineptitude and naivete made it possible for Al Qaeda to hit us at home, where it really hurts. And currently, Al Qaeda is still a mysterious and shadowy threat, hard to pin down. Our own government is more familiar, and it's much easier to think that "they" (as paranoid conspiracists often name their enemy) did it, as it's much easier and most importantly, does not require us to examine how we live, to reduce our dependency on foreign oil, to realize that maybe not every single thing that goes on in this world is our business... Maybe we really did make a mistake when we left bin Laden and his fellow soldiers in the lurch in the war in Afghanistan against the Soviets. Not a mistake that should have cost innocent lives, but a faux pas certainly. When 9/11 first happened, I did think that the ties between the Bush family and the bin Laden family were very interesting (and those, at the very least, are proveable), that the bin Ladens were flown out of the country before it was publicly announced that a family member had been behind it all... but everyone has someone in their family who does things they do not agree with, including me, and my friends certainly don't endorse it.

It is astounding the absolute refusal that everyone has to learn any lessons from 9/11. What the hijackers did is inexcusable, is an abandonment of the faith they presume to be at war for, etc, and I'm not defending them. But they are humans, they had reasons for what they did that made perfect sense to them, and for some reason nobody ever talks about them. Nobody wants to admit that America isn't infallible. And that, I fear, is what may cause the next attack.
post #9 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat View Post
Thanks for providing that link - the article is excellent.
interesting reading.
post #10 of 25
Not only the U.S. is a target for terrorist attacks, as 7/7 in London, the Madrid train bombings, Bali, the recent Canadian terrorist conspiracy, the (failed) bombing attempts on German commuter trains, etc., etc., show. Unfortunately, I don't believe it's possible to foil all attempts, i.e., there's no way to ensure 100% security. Very little commercial (air/ocean) cargo is examined, for instance.
Just to give a concrete example: I flew from Germany to Nebraska (two flights, three security checks) and then back again (two flights, one security check) in August/September, and nobody discovered/confiscated the contraband cigarette lighter I had in the outside pocket of my handbag. I had forgotten to throw it away before going to board my first flight, and when it wasn't taken away from me, decided to use it as a "test" of any further checks. Okay, I'm a harmless-looking, pale-skinned, blue-eyed, middle-aged woman who wouldn't get anybody's antenna up, but still, somebody should have found it.
I commute to work by train every day, and take a backpack - there's no way "authorities" can check every passenger.
post #11 of 25
Yea, I know a person (I don't want to say who, obviously) who accidentally took pepper spray on the airplane with her, cross-country, in her pocket. Nobody caught that either.

I know it's not just the US... that's what I meant. We thought it couldn't happen here, as it does everywhere else. But I also think that alot of the people in the other countries you listed never thought al-qaeda would go after them until the first time it happened there either. There's no way for anyone to be 100% safe, of course, but there are tons of things the 9/11 commission specifically recommended which no one has even moved a toe towards carrying out. We're too busy buying flak jackets for police dogs in Kansas to increase the port security!
post #12 of 25
Why is it that people want to believe the most complicated explanation of something? Human nature does not support a conspiracy on a level of this complexity.

It reminds me of when we had a number of cats which unfortunately were found multilated. Investigators looked into and determined it was due to predators like coyotes which had been seen in the area. But everyone had built it up to be a whole group of satanists even though there was no other evidence. They would rather believe they had satanists in their neighborhood than coyotes.
post #13 of 25
I always thought that missile theory was ridiculous...people lost their loved ones on that plane--were they flying on top of a missile!!! It makes no sense!
when people say oh it sounds like a missile..Hello when is the last time any of us have heard a missile and know what it sounds like??
post #14 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
Yea, I know a person (I don't want to say who, obviously) who accidentally took pepper spray on the airplane with her, cross-country, in her pocket. Nobody caught that either.

I know it's not just the US... that's what I meant. We thought it couldn't happen here, as it does everywhere else. But I also think that alot of the people in the other countries you listed never thought al-qaeda would go after them until the first time it happened there either. There's no way for anyone to be 100% safe, of course, but there are tons of things the 9/11 commission specifically recommended which no one has even moved a toe toward carrying out. We're too busy buying flak jackets for police dogs in Kansas to increase the port security!
I'm probably going to be attacked for saying this, but, IMO, most Americans are far too complacent, and far too susceptible to media manipulation. I've spent more than half my life abroad, not only in a country with a history of terrorist attacks (the RAF was very active when I moved to Germany) , but have also made a lot of visits to the UK and to relatives in Belfast, Northern Ireland, where IRA attacks were always expected. The rest of the world has been dealing with terrorist attacks for decades, and the general attitude in the U.S. was, "We're not affected." What a laugh. The threat is very real, but our current Administration only seems to exploit it for election purposes.
post #15 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat View Post
I'm probably going to be attacked for saying this, but, IMO, most Americans are far too complacent, and far too susceptible to media manipulation. I've spent more than half my life abroad, not only in a country with a history of terrorist attacks (the RAF was very active when I moved to Germany) , but have also made a lot of visits to the UK and to relatives in Belfast, Northern Ireland, where IRA attacks were always expected. The rest of the world has been dealing with terrorist attacks for decades, and the general attitude in the U.S. was, "We're not affected." What a laugh. The threat is very real, but our current Administration only seems to exploit it for election purposes.
I agree totally. We know nothing about constant terror attacks and instead of learning from those countries dealing with the IRA, ETA, and those attacking Isrealis, we fight it the way we did WWII. We are now bogging down our screeners with looking for bottles of shampoo instead of training them to spot suspicious activity.

All we hear from our elected officials is TERROR, TERROR, TERROR. But what they do is ineffective. Katrina was an embarrassment - you would think that after the attack on NY, that Homeland Security would have started wondering how to evacuate an urban area in case of a "dirty" bomb or other terrorist attack. But they were woefully inadequate at taking care of an urban area where the threat was predicted in ADVANCE.
post #16 of 25
Tricia, I agree with you as well. Honestly, I think part of the problem is with our school system in that critical thinking is not something that is taught. I was lucky enough to have parents who did examine ideas and didn't just believe everything they saw on the news (or elsewhere). I see so many people who just flat out believe what they are told. And then we hear more and more about teachers who are exploiting the lack of critical thinking skills to indoctinate their students to whatever their political leaning (it goes both ways) instead of showing both sides and fostering intellectual discussion.

IMO, it's real easy to blame the GOP and Bush in particular, but these problems that led up to 9/11 have been decades in the making - with both sides in power making mistakes that allowed the terrorists to gain a foothold and carry out a successful plot. To discount all of that and say that it was a conspiracy is avoiding the real issues, IMO.
post #17 of 25
Heidi,

Good points there. It doesn't help when we have elected officials who continue to spread misinformation: Cheney repeats Iraq/al-Qaeda links. We also live in a time of sound bites.

And yes, the previous administrations didn't give the bombing of the Cole the attention it deserved as we see in hindsight. But then it was too remote for the US population to give it any priority.
post #18 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by katachtig View Post
I agree totally. We know nothing about constant terror attacks and instead of learning from those countries dealing with the IRA, ETA, and those attacking Isrealis, we fight it the way we did WWII. We are now bogging down our screeners with looking for bottles of shampoo instead of training them to spot suspicious activity.

All we hear from our elected officials is TERROR, TERROR, TERROR. But what they do is ineffective. Katrina was an embarrassment - you would think that after the attack on NY, that Homeland Security would have started wondering how to evacuate an urban area in case of a "dirty" bomb or other terrorist attack. But they were woefully inadequate at taking care of an urban area where the threat was predicted in ADVANCE.
I guess the current administration gets no credit for the fact that we HAVEN't been hit again? This, while critics of the administration as well as media outlets like the NY Times are doing everything they can to make sure that we are obstructed from using effective tactics to stop terroism. Civil rights are not much good if you're dead. If you want to get serious, really serious about fighting the terror threat and not wasting scarce resources being politically correct, start profiling at airports, and in other places, with an eye on young to middle age Muslims, and start monitoring Mosques. Stop searching grandma's wheelchair. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but the vast, VAST majority of terrorists have been Muslim. Thats a start.

And for Katrina, c'mon. The Fed govt is not a first responder. You obviously have bought into the hype by the agenda driven mainstream media that somehow think that this was all the fed govt's responsibility. Under the prior administration's oversight FEMA was sometimes 6 days in responding to hurricanes, twice as long as Katrina. The responsibility was mostly local, city and state. So what did maligning the administration do??? It got 6 billion taxpayer dollars of immediate relief thrown at the problem, $2 billion of which was fraudulent. New Orleans was and is a huge bowl. People on the local level, and other prev adminstrations, dem and repub knew that it was a catastrophe waiting to happen.

Lastly if you think there is an orderly way of evacuating several million people from any US city, think again. It is impossible under any circumstance, never mind during a panic. Lets stop blaming our govt for everything. What happened to people taking care of their own?
post #19 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbw999 View Post
I guess the current administration gets no credit for the fact that we HAVEN't been hit again? This, while critics of the administration as well as media outlets like the NY Times are doing everything they can to make sure that we are obstructed from using effective tactics to stop terroism. Civil rights are not much good if you're dead. If you want to get serious, really serious about fighting the terror threat and not wasting scarce resources being politically correct, start profiling at airports, and in other places, with an eye on young to middle age Muslims, and start monitoring Mosques. Stop searching grandma's wheelchair. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but the vast, VAST majority of terrorists have been Muslim. Thats a start.

And for Katrina, c'mon. The Fed govt is not a first responder. You obviously have bought into the hype by the agenda driven mainstream media that somehow think that this was all the fed govt's responsibility. Under the prior administration's oversight FEMA was sometimes 6 days in responding to hurricanes, twice as long as Katrina. The responsibility was mostly local, city and state. So what did maligning the administration do??? It got 6 billion taxpayer dollars of immediate relief thrown at the problem, $2 billion of which was fraudulent. New Orleans was and is a huge bowl. People on the local level, and other prev adminstrations, dem and repub knew that it was a catastrophe waiting to happen.

Lastly if you think there is an orderly way of evacuating several million people from any US city, think again. It is impossible under any circumstance, never mind during a panic. Lets stop blaming our govt for everything. What happened to people taking care of their own?
Then let's not allow the government say that they are going to protect us in this. Because they can't.

And you think giving up civil rights will protect us - who will protect us from the government when they are gone and all oversight is gone. Trust them at your own peril. God help you if you are erroneously accused of something you didn't do.
post #20 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by katachtig View Post
Then let's not allow the government say that they are going to protect us in this. Because they can't.

And you think giving up civil rights will protect us - who will protect us from the government when they are gone and all oversight is gone. Trust them at your own peril. God help you if you are erroneously accused of something you didn't do.
the govt can protect us against terrorism,, the current adm is trying to do just that.....protecting us from hurricanes..i doubt it

I dont belief in slippery slope arguments. The distance between the govt profiling Muslims, or checking overseas bank accounts.......and govt secret
police breaking your door open and carting you away in the middle of the night can be measured in light years. We draw lines in everything. That is why we have laws. But as someone smarter than me once said, "the Constitution is not a suicide pact". Think about it.
post #21 of 25
First of all, it took from 1993 to 2001 for Al Qaeda to successfully plan a new attack.

This administration has encouraged the most partisan congress. It has made terror a campaign issue. But I'm not really sure how much they have done since Afghanistan to really make us safer.

And yes, in Katrina, there was a conflict between inept state and local governments. But my question was: how is handling this catastrophe going to be different from a dirty bomb or the bombings like in London? Has there been any leadership from this administration to address this? I doubt it would have come from "Heck of a Job" Brown.

It is ironic that a president who says "WE HAVE entered a new type of war. It's a war against people who hate freedom. We're fighting for liberty and freedom.†is so willing to reduce our freedom. And this is war that could last generations. Hundreds of foreigners, most of them Muslims, were rounded up after September 11th and held without charge, sometimes for months. Tens of thousands more were called in for questioning and finger-printing. Not a single terrorist was found.

With civil liberties, there will be innocents lost and without civil liberties there will be innocents lost.

But enough of a hijack (So sorry lilleah). I just do not see the federal government competent enough and the press muzzled (as much as the administration would like) enough to stage a conspiracy of this level.
post #22 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbw999 View Post
And for Katrina, c'mon. The Fed govt is not a first responder. You obviously have bought into the hype by the agenda driven mainstream media that somehow think that this was all the fed govt's responsibility. Under the prior administration's oversight FEMA was sometimes 6 days in responding to hurricanes, twice as long as Katrina. The responsibility was mostly local, city and state. So what did maligning the administration do??? It got 6 billion taxpayer dollars of immediate relief thrown at the problem, $2 billion of which was fraudulent. New Orleans was and is a huge bowl. People on the local level, and other prev adminstrations, dem and repub knew that it was a catastrophe waiting to happen.
also, they didn't think it was going there - the mayor had all of those people in the superdome, thinking it would be a safe haven, instead of evacuating them. sure, he did it because it was easier & cheaper, but i also think he thought it would be safe as well.
post #23 of 25
Well, if we're talking conspiracies, Katrina certainly has inspired a few - most of which is that it was a conspiracy to not help the poor black people of New Orleans. Funny how most of the tragedies that occurred could have been avoided if the black mayor would have actually followed the evacuation plans that were already in place insted of herding those who couldn't afford to leave on their own into the Superdome and Convention Center with no provisions for them. In a state of emergency, the responsibility falls to local first, then state if they need it, then federal if requested. Somehow that chain of command was lost and it was just expected that the feds would be there taking care of everything.
post #24 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbw999 View Post
I wont get going, but this video and others like it, all the websites, and the "academics" behind it are a bunch of idiots. It is scary to think that these fools teach our young people. Look up the Rule called Occams Razor. It applies here. Do you understand the scope of the "conspiracy" that is alleged. It would have had to include:

all the major tv networks that filmed the WTC being hit

the airlines who would have "fabricated" pictures of terrorists going through security, and cockpit recordings

the NY Fire Dept

all of the people who spoke to loved ones from the planes before they were killed

the entire administration in govt and countless thousands that would have had to be in on this

al queda who taped PRIOR to 9-11 its intentions to execute this attack

Give me a break. Just on the pentagon issue what happened to the people on this flight???? Did they just disappear? Did martians kidnap them? Is Ted Olsen the former Solicitor General of the US pretending to mourn his wife, Barabara Olsen?

Hey sorry to sound harsh, but this stuff really gets me mad. It is so blatantly rediculous, that I cannot believe that some people cant understand what hooey it is.

So spools of wire were left standing? Who cares? Would anyone have believed that anybody would have been left alive after the gargantuan WTC fell on them...while they were on the 6th floor? Well it happened, and it is just one of the things that can occur in an event like this. If the plane hit the building head on AS IT DID, why would you even expect spools of wire in front of the building to be disturbed? The conspiracy theorists should take their tin foil hats off, and be realsitic about this: IT WAS A TERRORIST ATTACK ON OUR COUNTRY BY PEOPLE WHO USED JET FUEL LADEN PLANES AS TACTICAL WEAPONS, PERIOD.
Couldn't have said it better myself.

I personally think all these "the government is out to get us" ideas should just stop. I guess we have too much freedom and people need to find something to worry and complain about.
post #25 of 25
I've never seen that video before. I suppose everyone has a theory.
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