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Ocicat Bengal Crosses

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 
Hello,

I'm hoping to breed my ocicat to a bengal next year. would i be able to register the kittens in the UK or is only the US that can register them? they don't seem to be recognised over here. i'm not that bothered but would that affect the price i would have to sell them if they don't have pink papers? i don't want to make a fortune on them or anything i just want to get my stud fee back. i think its more important they get good homes. if i can't register them with pink papers what price would i sell them for? £300/250??, i paid almost £500 for my little girl and my stud fee will most likely be in the (£500-700 range). I really love the look of the beautiful crosses in america. i think they call them Cheetohs?
post #2 of 17
If anyone can give you good advice then GoldenKitty45 can. She was a judge in the CFA and ACFA I believe.
post #3 of 17
I'm not defending the cross but I looked up the Cheetoh and it does seem to be registered with the UFO and experimental with TICA.

An example of a breed with a vision is the Toyger. Now that breed has a goal and they are selective with who is allowed to breed these cats as they only want cats bred to further their current vision. They have defined every step it will take to get the breed they are striving for.

For those interested:
http://www.cheetohcatbreeders.com/
post #4 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolarityBengals View Post
I'm not defending the cross but I looked up the Cheetoh and it does seem to be registered with the UFO and experimental with TICA.

An example of a breed with a vision is the Toyger. Now that breed has a goal and they are selective with who is allowed to breed these cats as they only want cats bred to further their current vision. They have defined every step it will take to get the breed they are striving for.

For those interested:
http://www.cheetohcatbreeders.com/

if bred correctly i hear they are beautiful and have a lovely temperment. my vet friend lives in the US and does the show vetting there and in Canada. His wife is also a breeder. they have raved about this and because of this i have really tried to research it and ask as much as i can on the info for it.
post #5 of 17
It is my understanding that Cheetohs are a hybrid cat created from specific Bengal and Ocicat bloodlines. Just about every domestic cat known today began as a hybrid before it was officially established as an accepted breed. This takes time, research and intense commitment to the breed to insure a strict adherence to the new breed standards. I know that Cheetohs are registered with the United Feline Organization and that there is a small group of breeders diligently working towards having TICA recognize this new breed.

Since the Cheetoh is a recognized breed (in the UFO), it is not for us to say the OP is engaging in backyard breeding.

To the OP: So long as you are planning on adhering to the UFO standards for breeding Cheetohs, I think you should also become a part of the Ocicat breed group within TICA to assist them with their goals in having the Bengal admitted as an acceptable outcross. Here is there website for your convenience:

http://www.tica.org
post #6 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gayef View Post
It is my understanding that Cheetohs are a hybrid cat created from specific Bengal and Ocicat bloodlines. Just about every domestic cat known today began as a hybrid before it was officially established as an accepted breed. This takes time, research and intense commitment to the breed to insure a strict adherence to the new breed standards. I know that Cheetohs are registered with the United Feline Organization and that there is a small group of breeders diligently working towards having TICA recognize this new breed.

Since the Cheetoh is a recognized breed (in the UFO), it is not for us to say the OP is engaging in backyard breeding.

To the OP: So long as you are planning on adhering to the UFO standards for breeding Cheetohs, I think you should also become a part of the Ocicat breed group within TICA to assist them with their goals in having the Bengal admitted as an acceptable outcross. Here is there website for your convenience:

http://www.tica.org

Thanks i was actually reading up on that last night and was planning on pursuing it after we went on holiday. i still have another 10 or 11 months before i begin breeding so i have plenty of time to join and support where i can. thanks for your supportive information! keep it coming!
post #7 of 17
Are the cats you plan to breed from the bloodlines that are approved for breeding for the Cheetoh? You have done so much research that I'm sure you've come across the fact that it can't just be any bengal and any ocicat in order to be registered.
post #8 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
Are the cats you plan to breed from the bloodlines that are approved for breeding for the Cheetoh? You have done so much research that I'm sure you've come across the fact that it can't just be any bengal and any ocicat in order to be registered.
I'm looking into it at the moment. i'm not so sure since i didn't get my queen from the US where they started. might speak to them about how strong her lines are and if they would make an exception! will have to speak to my friend about the bengal. but even so if both parties are healthy cats would it hurt to try? from what my vet friend says that hopfully the worst that could happen with them(since neither of them have health defects in the lines) is they might not have recognised markings. i donno i'm really quite wary of it all. but i don't want to fly her to the states for stud and back. if i fly her back home to the states i will leave her there with my family or put her up for adoption. i don't know if i can do that. i honestly think she will be ok with a healthy strong bengal.
post #9 of 17
If you truly want to help improve the Cheetoh breed, and it sounds like you are dedicated to it, why don't you have your girl spayed, and buy one of the cats from the approved bloodlines, with breeding rights, and find a recognized Cheetoh breeder who would mentor you and help you start a UK Cheetoh breeding program?

Your kitty is pet-quality, and you don't have breeding rights, am I correct? If so, the breeding won't do anything for the Cheetoh breed and may actually hurt your cause as it might make people view the Cheetoh breed as just another designer breed. The Cheetoh sites I can find warn specifically about not buying Cheetohs from unrecognized breeders, since typically it is just an ocicat/bengal cross, which is not the same thing as a Cheetoh.

I hope you can figure it out more with your continued research. Have you had genetic testing done on her, and if so, how do they compare to the person who has agreed to stud her? Are you absolutely sure this breeder is a good breeder? Have their kittens won shows?

If you took her back to the US why on earth would you have to give her up for adoption? I don't understand that at all.
post #10 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post

Your kitty is pet-quality, and you don't have breeding rights, am I correct? If so, the breeding won't do anything for the Cheetoh breed and may actually hurt your cause as it might make people view the Cheetoh breed as just another designer breed. The Cheetoh sites I can find warn specifically about not buying Cheetohs from unrecognized breeders, since typically it is just an ocicat/bengal cross, which is not the same thing as a Cheetoh.

I hope you can figure it out more with your continued research. Have you had genetic testing done on her, and if so, how do they compare to the person who has agreed to stud her? Are you absolutely sure this breeder is a good breeder? Have their kittens won shows?

If you took her back to the US why on earth would you have to give her up for adoption? I don't understand that at all.
she is on the active register, where did you get the idea that she wasn't?

i don't think it's fair to take a cat have them mate and then put them on a plane to fly over the ocean again. i can't just assume my family will take her once she is bred. the point i was trying to make was that really wasn't an option i was lookign at because it was silly! could you please refrain from getting anymore into the personal side of this thanks.

I'm trying to do the most research that i can as i don't want to put any one in danger!!! the last pure bred kitten i got from a so called reputable breeder was very unhealthy and didn't make it !!!!!!! i was lied to left and right and given faulty transfer papers. i'm not about to go make that mistake again nor am i about to put any of my cats or future kittens in danger now will you lay off!!!!!!!!!!!

i never should have asked thanks for nothing but stress really thanks.
post #11 of 17
One of the things I was reading about is that Cheetohs are supposed to be larger than usual, ranging from 15-25lbs. This got my curiosity up. The example of the Liger was used to illustrate the reasoning. The Liger is a large cat becuase the tiger and lion have a different number of chromosomes. The same for the wolf hybrid, the dog and wolf have different number of chromosomes so the resulting hybrid is extremely large.

Now the Asian Leopard Cat has 38 paired chromosomes and the domestic cat has 38 paired chromosomes. The resulting bengal has 36 paired and 2 unpaired chromosomes but this did not make them big (the bengal is somewhat average in size, EG's are even on the small side). I might be wrong but through the later generations of domestication most SBT bengals should be back to 38 paired chromosomes. Does anyone know if this is a fact? Maybe only F1's or F2's show this unpairing (hence low/no fertility)?

So if in fact the SBT bengal has 38 paired chromosomes and the ocicat has 38 paired chromosomes then why are Cheetohs so big? If someone has an explanation I would be really interested. Anything that gives me a further understanding into bengal genetics is fascinating.
post #12 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolarityBengals View Post
One of the things I was reading about is that Cheetohs are supposed to be larger than usual, ranging from 15-25lbs. This got my curiosity up. The example of the Liger was used to illustrate the reasoning. The Liger is a large cat becuase the tiger and lion have a different number of chromosomes. The same for the wolf hybrid, the dog and wolf have different number of chromosomes so the resulting hybrid is extremely large.

Now the Asian Leopard Cat has 38 paired chromosomes and the domestic cat has 38 paired chromosomes. The resulting bengal has 36 paired and 2 unpaired chromosomes but this did not make them big (the bengal is somewhat average in size, EG's are even on the small side). I might be wrong but through the later generations of domestication most SBT bengals should be back to 38 paired chromosomes. Does anyone know if this is a fact? Maybe only F1's or F2's show this unpairing (hence low/no fertility)?

So if in fact the SBT bengal has 38 paired chromosomes and the ocicat has 38 paired chromosomes then why are Cheetohs so big? If someone has an explanation I would be really interested. Anything that gives me a further understanding into bengal genetics is fascinating.
natalie you made my brain hurt
post #13 of 17
Hehe. I love feline genetics. Its like a puzzle to figure out. I love answering posts about red/torties because its the perfect genetics model, actually the first time I heard about it was my genetics class where torties are used as an example of sex-linked chromosomes. Now if only ALL of genetics was as fun as feline genetics .
post #14 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
Are the cats you plan to breed from the bloodlines that are approved for breeding for the Cheetoh? You have done so much research that I'm sure you've come across the fact that it can't just be any bengal and any ocicat in order to be registered.
Interesting that you bring this up ... when asking "What bloodlines are allowed to be crossed?", one must look at the entity doing the answering and examine their motives as well as goals. In just about every "breed club" I know of, there is a reason they don't want you to cross "just any lines". They are working together as a network of people who share similar vision and goals. It may be that not everyone shares that vision or those goals. It is oftentimes a pioneer; some brave, maverick soul who isn't afraid to go against the current popular way of doing things who ends up finding another way to achieve the same or similar results.

IMO, so long as the breeder has purchased breeding rights for all of her cats, stays within the accepted standards of whatever registry association hold her pedigrees, practices sound animal husbandry, cares appropriately for her cats and keeps meticulous records of her efforts, then she should be allowed to make decisions about her program without having to be unfairly judged.

In this case, I think it would be safe for me to say that not everyone knows every specific detail about what the OP intends to do. I know I don't. But we shouldn't be so quick to pass judgements and formulate opinions until we have taken the time to better educate ourselves on the topic - and then respond with a better understanding of what is actually being discussed.
post #15 of 17
Maybe I misunderstood but I think that comment might have come from the first line of your first post Gayef? You had mentioned something about specific bloodlines were to be used in the hybrid...
post #16 of 17
ACFA doesn't recognize them as a cross - only as separate breeds. Foundation cats are hard to start up because you have too many variables. Better to start with those that are established instead of trying to start from scratch - I'd spay/neuter the cats you now have unless they are show quality and you breed them only with their own breed.
post #17 of 17
The last thing I will say in this thread, is that I did alot of research concerning the breed before I responded.
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