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B&W kitten from a B&W mother, father?

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
If a black and white female has a black and white kitten, is there a way to tell what the father looked like? I am actually thinking it is the black and whilte male cat Hitler which my wonderful and caring neighbors kicked out and left behind when they moved.
post #2 of 28
if moms black and white and baby is black and white its gonna be tough to tell who the dad is. even if the mom isnt its tough to tell when you dont know. genetics is a tricky thing.
post #3 of 28
Thread Starter 
ok, I really didn't expect there to be an easy way to tell since the kitten is identical to the mom. But thanks.
post #4 of 28
I have 3 black and whites they were all fathered by a male cat that looked alomst like my Cammie in my siggy all in my siggy are related except, cammie, micky, and dunkin ...there were also 3 grey and whites
post #5 of 28
If the kitten is a male, then no you can't tell what the father is as the mother gives the color gene (on the X chromazone). But if the kitten is a female, then you can tell - again color is on the X and the female would get color from mother and father. So in that case, dad would be the black/white you mentioned.

What sex is the kitten?

IMO basic genetics is pretty simple; its when you figure in a lot of other possible backgrounds that makes it tricky.
post #6 of 28
Thread Starter 
ok cool, the kitten is indeed female. Her mother is definately the black and white female I already trapped, so that makes her dad Hitler... he is my next neuter and rehome project... thanks
post #7 of 28
Red is the only sex-linked color. You can't tell from the other colors.
post #8 of 28
The color gene is on the X chromosone - so that gives you the possible colors. My statement stands true. You CAN tell what colors the parents are in most cases from the color of the kitten.

Mom gives color to both daughters and sons
Father gives color to daughters only.
post #9 of 28
Thread Starter 
Is that ALWAYS the case with which parent gives which sex kitten its colors?? So in this case the mother is black and white and the female kitten is black and white also so since the kitten doesn't have any other colors on it, the father must also be black and white? But only because it is female or would it be the same if it was a male black and white kitten too?

How about this one...

The mother is solid blue/gray (like a russian blue's color) no striping or white spots or anything. The kittens are all black and white of both sexes. One kitten is female and solid black. Waht would the father look like?
post #10 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jen View Post
How about this one...

The mother is solid blue/gray (like a russian blue's color) no striping or white spots or anything. The kittens are all black and white of both sexes. One kitten is female and solid black. Waht would the father look like?
Father has to be black with white. There is an unlikely chance that he is tabby with white.

* If he were red, the female kitten would have to be a calico. Since she's not, he's black based.
* If he were dilute, the kittens would also have to be dilute. Dilute is recessive. (Additionally, the kittens are all black but carry blue from mom).
* If he were solid, the kittens would also be solid. Spotting is dominant. Since one kitten is not spotted, we also know he is heterozygous for spotted (ie: he is spotted, carrying solid)

The tabby is more difficult. He could be a heterozygous tabby (looks like a tabby, but carries non-tabby). However, this is unlikely. Tabby is dominant, so odds would have it that if he WAS tabby, half the kittens should be tabby. You can do the math to figure out the likelyhood, based upon how many kittens there were. But it sounds like more than four, so it's unlikely that he's tabby.
post #11 of 28
Thread Starter 
Ok cool. This is all so interesting. I cannot quite grasp it but one day it will all click perhaps. The dominant and recessive thing confuses me. I was going to ask that if cats can be one color but carry another color then how could anyone be able to tell when color their offspring would be. But that is where dominant and recessive comes into the picture right?

How about one more if you guys don't mind. Is there a way to know what either parent looks like of a tortoishell with white feet, belly and chest, female kitten?
post #12 of 28
If you remember that XX is female and XY is male, AND that color is only carried on the X part, then its easy to see that mom gives color to the males and mom and dad give color to the females.

Case with the tortie can have different combos for the parents.

1. Mom is also a calico and dad can be either black or red - because if the kitten gets one color from mom and the opposite from dad, you'd have a calico.

2. Mom is black and dad is red (and either one has white on them) - you'd still get a calico because you have one of each color.

Dominate colors are black or red. The dilute or recessive colors would be blue or cream. Both parents have to be carrying the dilute gene or be dilute color themselves in order for it to show up in the kittens.

For example, a black mother and black father could have blue kittens IF both are carrying the dilute or recessive "blue" gene. If only one is carrying it, ALL of the kittens will be black (as its dominate) but half will be carrying blue.
post #13 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
If you remember that XX is female and XY is male, AND that color is only carried on the X part, then its easy to see that mom gives color to the males and mom and dad give color to the females.

Case with the tortie can have different combos for the parents.

1. Mom is also a calico and dad can be either black or red - because if the kitten gets one color from mom and the opposite from dad, you'd have a calico.

2. Mom is black and dad is red (and either one has white on them) - you'd still get a calico because you have one of each color.

Dominate colors are black or red. The dilute or recessive colors would be blue or cream. Both parents have to be carrying the dilute gene or be dilute color themselves in order for it to show up in the kittens.

For example, a black mother and black father could have blue kittens IF both are carrying the dilute or recessive "blue" gene. If only one is carrying it, ALL of the kittens will be black (as its dominate) but half will be carrying blue.
ok it is making more sense...

In the case of the Calico kitten, could the mother be red and the father black? By red you mean red tabby?
post #14 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jen View Post
ok it is making more sense...

In the case of the Calico kitten, could the mother be red and the father black? By red you mean red tabby?
Yes, that's correct. Red mother and black father produces red boys and torti girls.

When she says red, she means only the base color. Tabby is another gene entirely.
post #15 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
If you remember that XX is female and XY is male, AND that color is only carried on the X part, then its easy to see that mom gives color to the males and mom and dad give color to the females.

Case with the tortie can have different combos for the parents.

1. Mom is also a calico and dad can be either black or red - because if the kitten gets one color from mom and the opposite from dad, you'd have a calico.

2. Mom is black and dad is red (and either one has white on them) - you'd still get a calico because you have one of each color.

Dominate colors are black or red. The dilute or recessive colors would be blue or cream. Both parents have to be carrying the dilute gene or be dilute color themselves in order for it to show up in the kittens.

For example, a black mother and black father could have blue kittens IF both are carrying the dilute or recessive "blue" gene. If only one is carrying it, ALL of the kittens will be black (as its dominate) but half will be carrying blue.
Ok but this only holds true for reds. All other colors could come from X or Y. Red is the only x-linked trait. Mom OR dad can contribute in any case but red. Otherwise how could sons ever look identical to their fathers?

Here is a typical description of orange color genetics:
Quote:
The Orange-Making Gene - This gene is sex-linked; it is carried on the X chromosome beyond the limit of the Y chromosome. Therefore, in males there is no homologous pairing, and the single orange-making gene stands alone. As a result there is no dominance effect in males: they are either orange or non-orange. If a male possesses the non-orange allele, o, all colors (black, dark brown, or light brown) will be expressed. If he possesses the orange allele, O, all colors will be converted to orange.
Note that what I bolded implies other color can reside on teh Y-chromosome, it is implying this is a special characteristic of orange. In none of my reading have I read that color can't be on the Y-chromosome, it just dosen't make sense. Why would it be exclusive, color is never termed sex-linked, only orange is termed sex-linked.
post #16 of 28
Color has always been carried ONLY by the X gene - not the Y - I have no idea why it implies otherwise. Maybe the Y has other factors (such as the tabby gene).

A red male can give the red gene to his daughters - NOT the sons as he's only contributing the Y to make them male - the mother would be contributing the color part for the X side - that's why they say its "sex-linked" on males.

Now if mom is NOT a tortie with 2 color choices (say she's a black) then her sons will only be black. If mom is a black and dad is a red, you'd have tortie females only and black males only
post #17 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Color has always been carried ONLY by the X gene - not the Y - I have no idea why it implies otherwise. Maybe the Y has other factors (such as the tabby gene).
Can you find a source that says that color is only carried on the X gene? I really don't think it is but if it is then I need to read about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
A red male can give the red gene to his daughters - NOT the sons as he's only contributing the Y to make them male - the mother would be contributing the color part for the X side - that's why they say its "sex-linked" on males.
I'm not talking about red. Red is sex-linked and can only be carried on the X-chromosome. Red is the exception.
post #18 of 28
Another source that implies red only is x-linked:

Quote:
So back to the cats. Most of the genes involved in deciding what a cat's coat will look like are found on the autosomes (normal chromosomes that have nothing to do with sex). However, one of the colour genes is found on the X chromosome. This gene is the orange gene.
I'm not saying that colors can't be on the x-chromosome but that they are not exclusively X except for orange.
post #19 of 28
Quote:
When inspected under a microscope, the chromosomes reveal irregular light and dark bands: hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions per chromosome. These light and dark bands are the genes, the actual genetic codes. Each gene controls a single feature or group of features in the makeup of the individual. Many genes interact: a single feature may be controlled by one, two, or a dozen genes. This makes the mapping of the genes difficult, and only a few major genes have been mapped out for the cat.
So there is no way the Y-chromosome can carry color or even interact with a color gene on an X-chromosome? How do we know? We know so little.. Red is obvious and is mapped but its the only one I know of that has been...
post #20 of 28
I'll have to do a little research, but I've talked to enough genetic breeders and X is the color gene - not Y.

If Y was a color gene too, you'd have a LOT more male torties/calicos! Male torties/calicos are XXY - meaning that color is only on the X - you'd have two X's one with red, one with black.

That is why a XX female can have 2 colors and the XY male only one color.

You can have other genes on the Y, such as tabby (?) or long hair, shorthair, curly coats, no coats, etc. But color is on the X gene.
post #21 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
If Y was a color gene too, you'd have a LOT more male torties/calicos! Male torties/calicos are XXY - meaning that color is only on the X - you'd have two X's one with red, one with black.
Your not listenign to me . I'm not talking about red! Find me an example that does not use red. Red is the exception because it IS sex linked I"m nto denying that.

The reason red cats are used as examples in genetics classes is because they are special. It is one fo the few times in nature a true sex-linked gene has a visual characteristic.
post #22 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
That is why a XX female can have 2 colors and the XY male only one color.
Ok by your example you know that a male cat is red and a female can be mottled, or true red. Then why does this not hold up for every other color? The OP has a B&W cat. Have you ever seen a black and white male? I have. And they are quite common because they are not XXY. Your reasoning would have to say ALL male cats must be a single color. This case is only true for red. Every other color is not this way.
post #23 of 28
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post #24 of 28
Yes I understand the male is black/white (common); however the mother of that black and white male would have to either be a tortie (carrying the black gene and the red gene - one X is black, other X is red) OR a black herself.

If she is also black or black/white then she can only give the black (or blue if carrying the dilute) gene to all her males and females.

X STILL is the color carrier - no matter what color it is - black or red. Y never carriers the color.

It really doesn't matter about color per say - only that the X is the color gene and Y is the sex gene.

All males WOULD be a single color (given by the mother). Forget the white part as its separate - its not really considered a "color". White is an added thing. You can have an all white cat; but underneath that white cat - its carrying a color. White paints over the existing genetic color.
post #25 of 28
Ok yah I see about the white. And I think I see your point. I need to read more about this though. I found one article but it does not get detailed enough. So many of these focus on red. I understand the genetics of red, I want to know more about the others.

Ok there are only 2 real colors black or red. I get it.

This article, though basic, addressed by question almost directly:
http://druniverse.wsu.edu/QandA.asp?questionID=4174
post #26 of 28
Genetically yes - only black and red - all other colors are produced by black/red.

You have modified genes that create the other colors. Genetically a brown tabby is "black" - that's why some call them black tabbies. But brown tabbies range from brown/black base to a warm toffee brown.
post #27 of 28
Its all starting to come together! I need to get a feline genetics book... Its been so long since I've taken genetics and I have to take a 700-level genetics course in the spring. Feline genetics is so fascinating, granted it will have nothign to do with the course, but it will help me refresh on some terms I've long since forgotten .
post #28 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by bab-ush-niik View Post
Father has to be black with white. There is an unlikely chance that he is tabby with white.

* If he were red, the female kitten would have to be a calico. Since she's not, he's black based.
* If he were dilute, the kittens would also have to be dilute. Dilute is recessive. (Additionally, the kittens are all black but carry blue from mom).
* If he were solid, the kittens would also be solid. Spotting is dominant. Since one kitten is not spotted, we also know he is heterozygous for spotted (ie: he is spotted, carrying solid)

The tabby is more difficult. He could be a heterozygous tabby (looks like a tabby, but carries non-tabby). However, this is unlikely. Tabby is dominant, so odds would have it that if he WAS tabby, half the kittens should be tabby. You can do the math to figure out the likelyhood, based upon how many kittens there were. But it sounds like more than four, so it's unlikely that he's tabby.
He could also be ALL white and carrying nonwhite, since white is dominant over all other colours.
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