Freezing DOES kill trichinosis larvae (pork) - and - cooking DOES NOT kill prions (BSE and related forms). So, I don't know, if the article makes an error like that, can it be relied on to be accurate in all other respects? Just something to think about when considering the authority of a source.
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Cat fancy magazine article
- Thread starter bella713
- Start Date
i have read many times that raw feeders do not feed pork. freezing does not kill the harmful bacteria, including salmonella, in the meats that are fed raw. that is not an error in the article.
Wow! What a debate! I would LOVE to feed raw, and have done a lot of research about the benefits, the in's and out's, supplementation, safety issues, etc. The only issue, is that I have done nothing yet about actually giving the kitties a raw diet.
I do feel that raw is more biologically appropriate. This isn't some new-fangled concept...cats are completely 100% carnivorous...there is absolutely NO denying that. The optimal meal for our felines, and the most nutritionally balanced meal package, is a whole mouse. Eyes, fur, bones, muscle meat, stomach, organs, etc. If all of our cats ate whole prey animals in their entirety, they would be receiving the best nutrition possible! However, it's not the most feasible option for most of us, so we then concoct a raw, homemade diet...this is where it gets tricky! Cross-contamination, bones vs. no bones, supplementation, storage, meat grinders, blah blah blah. I would not recommend the latter option to ANYONE who has NOT conducted thorough research...
I personally, would love to do it...but I have to admit, I do have my reservations. My one problem, is that there isn't a lot of consistency among raw fed recipes, and there doesn't seem to be 1 right way of doing it. If there was an end-all-be-all way of feeding raw, that would make things easy. Some supplement, others don't, calcium sources, adding fiber, taurine supplementation...what is the TRUTH about any of this???? The fact that there isn't one uniform way of feeding raw, and many avenues to go about it, shows me that we have not yet found the ideal. And this type of thing to me is far too risky to do it even just a bit askew...these are my pets!
Perhaps feeding a slightly amiss raw diet is still better than most commercially prepared diets. But really...who knows????
I do feel that raw is more biologically appropriate. This isn't some new-fangled concept...cats are completely 100% carnivorous...there is absolutely NO denying that. The optimal meal for our felines, and the most nutritionally balanced meal package, is a whole mouse. Eyes, fur, bones, muscle meat, stomach, organs, etc. If all of our cats ate whole prey animals in their entirety, they would be receiving the best nutrition possible! However, it's not the most feasible option for most of us, so we then concoct a raw, homemade diet...this is where it gets tricky! Cross-contamination, bones vs. no bones, supplementation, storage, meat grinders, blah blah blah. I would not recommend the latter option to ANYONE who has NOT conducted thorough research...
I personally, would love to do it...but I have to admit, I do have my reservations. My one problem, is that there isn't a lot of consistency among raw fed recipes, and there doesn't seem to be 1 right way of doing it. If there was an end-all-be-all way of feeding raw, that would make things easy. Some supplement, others don't, calcium sources, adding fiber, taurine supplementation...what is the TRUTH about any of this???? The fact that there isn't one uniform way of feeding raw, and many avenues to go about it, shows me that we have not yet found the ideal. And this type of thing to me is far too risky to do it even just a bit askew...these are my pets!
Perhaps feeding a slightly amiss raw diet is still better than most commercially prepared diets. But really...who knows????
I think the thing that's being missed, is that a healthy cat, with a healthy digestive tract and immune system, can safely digest the small amount of bacteria found in human quality, fresh, raw meats. Their digestive tract is designed for this. If for some reason the meat is contaminated with an unusually high amount of bacteria, that is the time when cats (and dogs) are at risk. This is where properly handling any food that is to be fed raw comes into play. Thawing on the counter, leaving meat out, not properly washing things, all contribute to contamination. But a healthy cat, eating fresh meat that's been handled properly, should not be at risk.
From hissy's own article:
From hissy's own article:
i understand your points and please dont think im picking on you but am i wrong in thinking carnivorous means meat eater? it doesnt have anything to do with the meat eaten being raw or not.
following this thought, the cat or dog can, though, transmit it to its human family, who cannot handle it the way their pets can. the danger is not only to the animal.
Carnivores best gain the nutrients from meat that has not been cooked. There is however, a lot of debate over how much is lost in the cooking process, and how much of a difference that makes to our animals. This is something you would have to read into yourself and make your own decision on once you'd investigated it further.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst has said: "The salmonella organism is particularly labile, dissapearing quickly from the environment following any episode of shedding. Salmonella survive only if conditions are favourable and this is rarely the case. Except in most unusual of circumstances, it is highly unlikley that even contaminated dog stools could enter the human environment in such a way that exposes humans to contracting a disease caused by those pathogens."
Also, the amount of salmonella that it takes to make a human sick is MUCH much more than would be present in a raw fed dog or cats saliva, unless they've eaten such contaminated meat that it will do serious harm (or even kill) the dog or cat themself.
Jaycee, you seem to have made up your mind before really doing any research on this topic. Please, I encourage you, read and learn more. I knew both sides, both pros and cons of raw feeding before I even attempted it, and my learning didn't stop once I'd started feeding. I continue to research continually to expand my knowledge base. If someday something actually proves to me that I'm putting my kitties at substantial risk by feeding them raw, instead of presenting me with exaggerated facts and fear mongering statements, I'll stop! But until that day I'll continue to comfortably feel that I'm doing the best thing for my kits.
they dont have to, because we humans do )
Your statement has me confused... can you clarify? I'm heading out for dinner, but I'll be back to continue this conversation for sure
apparently we posted too closely together , that statement was in reply the poster who said animals dont use crock pots.
yes, i have done research on feeding raw, not sure why you assumed i hadnt? and im not trying to persuade anyone to stop feeding their cat raw, im just tossing in some facts. e coli is one that (according to the research i have done) can be transmitted to you by a pet who has contracted it from eating raw, even if it doesnt harm the pet itself, because, i do know that their systems can handle it better than ours. as far as myself feeding my own pets raw? i will not do it because i have read all the pros and cons and for me, the cons outweigh the pros. that being said, i may now and then give my kitty a tiny piece of uncooked meat when making dinner, i dont know, but im just pointing out that the risks are there. i honestly dont believe that my animals would be any healthier on an all raw diet, even though i have researched it, i just dont buy it. no disrespect intended to raw feeders, thats just my personal opinion.
yes, i have done research on feeding raw, not sure why you assumed i hadnt? and im not trying to persuade anyone to stop feeding their cat raw, im just tossing in some facts. e coli is one that (according to the research i have done) can be transmitted to you by a pet who has contracted it from eating raw, even if it doesnt harm the pet itself, because, i do know that their systems can handle it better than ours. as far as myself feeding my own pets raw? i will not do it because i have read all the pros and cons and for me, the cons outweigh the pros. that being said, i may now and then give my kitty a tiny piece of uncooked meat when making dinner, i dont know, but im just pointing out that the risks are there. i honestly dont believe that my animals would be any healthier on an all raw diet, even though i have researched it, i just dont buy it. no disrespect intended to raw feeders, thats just my personal opinion.
I'm sorry if I was mistaken Jaycee, the reason I thought you hadn't done any research was because the questions you have been asking were the things I learned at the very basic part of my research. These are the questions people usually have who know nothing at all about raw feeding.
And as for e.coli, the major risk of e.coli is from contaminated ground beef, as this bacteria is found in the intestinal tract and feces of cows. It is not found in muscle meat. Ground beef becomes contaminated if somehow the surface of the meat was contaminated with this bacteria.
Most raw feeders, again, are very careful about preperation of their animals meals, making the transfer of bacteria from a raw fed pet to its family just as likely as if you were preparing the meat for yourself. The only other major way to be infected with these bacteria is through a raw fed pets feces. Dogs shed salmonella in their feces naturally, even if they're NOT raw fed (I don't know for sure on cats). And I would seriously hope that all pet owners thoroughly wash their hands after handling their pets poops! Making cross contamination, again, something that isn't a serious risk.
And as for e.coli, the major risk of e.coli is from contaminated ground beef, as this bacteria is found in the intestinal tract and feces of cows. It is not found in muscle meat. Ground beef becomes contaminated if somehow the surface of the meat was contaminated with this bacteria.
Most raw feeders, again, are very careful about preperation of their animals meals, making the transfer of bacteria from a raw fed pet to its family just as likely as if you were preparing the meat for yourself. The only other major way to be infected with these bacteria is through a raw fed pets feces. Dogs shed salmonella in their feces naturally, even if they're NOT raw fed (I don't know for sure on cats). And I would seriously hope that all pet owners thoroughly wash their hands after handling their pets poops! Making cross contamination, again, something that isn't a serious risk.
i try to ask rather than state so as not to come off like i think i know everything, which obviously i dont, no one does. im just trying to bring out thoughts. im definately not an expert but i have done enough research on raw feeding and on kibble feeding to know that i definately prefer the kibble method. again, thats my own personal opinion and preference.
I can say that my grandparents had cats all their lives and as a kid when I visited their house I saw that they fed their cats a lot of variety. They fed dry food and they fed canned food and they also fed table scraps. And they also frequently supplemented their cats with raw meat, raw liver, raw lamb hearts, raw hamburger meat, raw kidneys from the asian market, sometimes raw pork. They did not feed raw poultry. That was fed cooked. Sometimes they occasionally fed the treat of a can of tuna(but not often). Their cats did very well and never got salmonella or bacteria poisoning so I have to agree that if the meat is very fresh and handled properly that the risk of infection is unlikely but if the meat is not fresh or not handled properly then it is very dangerous. I think it's also dangerous to embark on a homemade raw diet without knowing what goes into a balanced diet. I personally have chosen not to feed my cats a raw diet because of reasons I previously stated in this thread. But I do think it's possible to feed this diet safely. There are many wild cats that are closely related to our domesticated house cats and even look very much like our domestic cats. And if these wild cats are kept in a zoo or a sanctuary they are likely fed a raw diet. African wild cats do mate with domesticated cats. In fact purebred African Wild Cats without any mixed lineage from the house cat are getting increasingly harder to find.
I believe the next best thing to a raw diet is canned food so I'm very generous with that. I think it's also very possible to provide a balanced homemade cooked diet with the necessary supplements included but I think the major disadvantage of that is that cooking meat takes much of the water content out of it. And cats are designed to obtain moisture from their food. So when you feed a cooked diet unless it has plenty of water added to it as in the case of canned food, They're basically eating a semi-moist type diet which is not ideal for obtaining sufficient water.
I did once read Ann Martin's second book which talks a lot about the raw meat controversy. She does not trust raw meat and feeds her cats a homemade cooked diet. She does cite evidence of dogs and cats getting ill from raw meat, but I believe this is open to interpretation, such as how fresh the meat is, is it properly handled etc. One thing I found interesting is the information stating that cooking the meat does not destroy a significant amount of nutrients such as taurine. So I conclude you can provide adequate nutrients feeding a homemade cooked diet but not enough water. I'm against feeding bones though. I think the risks involved with that are just too dangerous.
The closest thing I ever provide my cats to homemade food is fresh cooked chicken every once in a while. I think it can be beneficial to give cats treats of fresh food such as cooked meat or poultry (or raw if you're comfortable with it and well informed), scrambled egg, cottage cheese, fish sparingly, etc.
I believe the next best thing to a raw diet is canned food so I'm very generous with that. I think it's also very possible to provide a balanced homemade cooked diet with the necessary supplements included but I think the major disadvantage of that is that cooking meat takes much of the water content out of it. And cats are designed to obtain moisture from their food. So when you feed a cooked diet unless it has plenty of water added to it as in the case of canned food, They're basically eating a semi-moist type diet which is not ideal for obtaining sufficient water.
I did once read Ann Martin's second book which talks a lot about the raw meat controversy. She does not trust raw meat and feeds her cats a homemade cooked diet. She does cite evidence of dogs and cats getting ill from raw meat, but I believe this is open to interpretation, such as how fresh the meat is, is it properly handled etc. One thing I found interesting is the information stating that cooking the meat does not destroy a significant amount of nutrients such as taurine. So I conclude you can provide adequate nutrients feeding a homemade cooked diet but not enough water. I'm against feeding bones though. I think the risks involved with that are just too dangerous.
The closest thing I ever provide my cats to homemade food is fresh cooked chicken every once in a while. I think it can be beneficial to give cats treats of fresh food such as cooked meat or poultry (or raw if you're comfortable with it and well informed), scrambled egg, cottage cheese, fish sparingly, etc.
good post moggiegirl, i agree that it could be possible to safely feed a raw diet, i also very strongly agree that cooking the meat does not destroy a significant amount of nutrients.
The processing of fresh ingredients; i.e. commercial food production; does destroy a huge amount of natural nutrients. Why else would it be so heavily supplemented? When I was in college I worked summers in a packing plant. I know what happens to "food" in cans. There's no way to compare cooking and processing.
Let's not forget another very important component of foods- enzymes.
Enzymes perform the totally necessary function of breaking down food, assisting the immune system and carrying on all functions of metabolism. There are hundreds of them- lipase breaks down fat, protease breaks down protein, cellulose breaks down cellulose and amylase breaks down starch, etc.
Enzymes spark chemical reactions- they are a catalyst the body requires to extract other nutrients from a food. Without live enzymes everything takes place in a substandard manner.
Enzymes are destroyed by cooking.
Also destroyed by cooking are essential fatty acids which are degraded by heat, light and air. There is a reason we call them essential- cells don't function without them. Food that is processed, heated, or exposed to extended periods of light and air have rancid EFA's which are worse then no EFA's at all.
I knpw this argument has been done to death, and I don't mean to prolong it unnecessarily.
But does anyone really believe that optimum human nutrition can be gotten out of a box of "super fortified 100% RDA complete" Total Cereal?? Could you grow and be healthy and survive eating only Total Cereal for the rest of your life? Would you raise your children on nothing but Total Cereal? It's fortified, it contains every vitamin and mineral known to be required for humans, but is it really good enough??
Or would fresh whole foods be better?
ETA (I keep thinking of things)
And did you know you can get E.coli from lettuce? If contaminated floodwaters flood a field it can very easily enter your home on all maner of fresh fruits and vegetables. You wash it of course, and take all the necessary protections, but the possibility of infection is still there. Are we giving up salads because of the risk? Or do the benefits outweigh the risks?
Enzymes perform the totally necessary function of breaking down food, assisting the immune system and carrying on all functions of metabolism. There are hundreds of them- lipase breaks down fat, protease breaks down protein, cellulose breaks down cellulose and amylase breaks down starch, etc.
Enzymes spark chemical reactions- they are a catalyst the body requires to extract other nutrients from a food. Without live enzymes everything takes place in a substandard manner.
Enzymes are destroyed by cooking.
Also destroyed by cooking are essential fatty acids which are degraded by heat, light and air. There is a reason we call them essential- cells don't function without them. Food that is processed, heated, or exposed to extended periods of light and air have rancid EFA's which are worse then no EFA's at all.
I knpw this argument has been done to death, and I don't mean to prolong it unnecessarily.
But does anyone really believe that optimum human nutrition can be gotten out of a box of "super fortified 100% RDA complete" Total Cereal?? Could you grow and be healthy and survive eating only Total Cereal for the rest of your life? Would you raise your children on nothing but Total Cereal? It's fortified, it contains every vitamin and mineral known to be required for humans, but is it really good enough??
Or would fresh whole foods be better?
ETA (I keep thinking of things)
And did you know you can get E.coli from lettuce? If contaminated floodwaters flood a field it can very easily enter your home on all maner of fresh fruits and vegetables. You wash it of course, and take all the necessary protections, but the possibility of infection is still there. Are we giving up salads because of the risk? Or do the benefits outweigh the risks?
your post contained very good points C, but i liked this one the best!
you are totally right, and i would also like to mention that there are risks to feeding processed cat foods as well, they can become contaminated and harm our pets. i only mentioned risks with raw because it was the subject. i just dont think its the "perfect" diet. there is no perfect diet in my opinion, but there are a lot that are definately good enough. we all have to feed what we are most comfortable with. there are risks with everything.
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