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"Katrina" doctor and nurses found guilty of killing patients

post #1 of 45
7/19/06 at 7:17am
Thread Starter 
Yet another sad casualty of Hurricane Katrina http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060719/...tkBHNlYwM3MTg-
I really feel for the doctor & nurses who felt that they were performing acts of mercy when they PTS 4 patients who the doctor felt would perish because of the evacuation fiasco. Now that the crisis is over, it is easy to say they were wrong, but at the time - whom knew when help would come?? I think that those who are closest to death understand it better and know how awful suffering and dying and that death can be come as a blessed relief. I just don't feel that the defendants were acting in a callous manner.
One of the victims' daughter is glad of the decision, saying that euthanasia is what is done to horses and dogs, when it's people, it's murder! I disagree with that one - I think it would be interesting to know her experiences to see if she really knows what's involved with each scenario to accurately make that statement.
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post #2 of 45
7/19/06 at 7:26am
I really don't know what I would have done in that situation. I believe that they would have most likely died and painful death had they not been given the drugs to kill them. I guess my opinion is neutral in this case.
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post #3 of 45
7/19/06 at 8:06am
I think they're looking in the wrong places to put blame. My friend was in Florida when it went over, and her great aunt was in New Orleans, and her and her mom called everyone they could think of (red cross, mayor, fire dept, police, etc) to ask them if they could evacuate her great aunt and all she got was a bunch of people saying "Not my problem". It seems like there was a lot of that going on, nobody could get the help they needed and apparently neither could the hospital. I'm sure the people who've been arrested thought they were saving them from a horrible, drowning-in-sewer-water death.
I agree, more details are needed, like what was wrong, if these were all patienst who could never have been moved, etc.

ETA: yes, her great aunt died in her house in New Orleans, because nobody would go get her. And I doubt she's anywhere near the only one.
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post #4 of 45
7/19/06 at 8:33am
Although I stil would say that they needed to contact family members to make the decision before they did, still...in that type of situation, I don't think they would've gotten off easy with the lack of time that they had.

I.e. if these patients were truely untransportable because of their conditions, and were left to Katrina's wrath they probably wouldn't of survived and individual lawsuits would've risen in the aftermath towards the hospital for neglect. In either case the hospital would've been in trouble.
If they transported the patients that were too sick to move, then quite possibly they would've died in route and it still would be the hospitals' fault or a doctor's fault.

I would like to hear other medical experts respond to how they would've handled this type of situation...such as how critical does someone need to be to get left behind.
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post #5 of 45
7/19/06 at 8:36am
I live in New Orleans. My mother worked at a home health care center. I don't know all the facts but they were not allowed to get the people out untill the night before! Thankfully my mom got lost and ended up with me. She lost her job though for not being with home health care because it was only my mom and 2 other ladies with over 68 patients. Supervisors and higher people just left! No one wanted to deal with ANYTHING! No one seemed to care about responsibilites except of their own. I think everyone messed up big hospitals and rescue workers were under to much stress to even know what was going on. I don't think it was fair or right what they did but thats my thoughts opinion. All I have to say is hopefully it wont happen again soon. If it does I think everyone is even less ready now then before!
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post #6 of 45
7/19/06 at 9:55am
I think the Medical personal were trying to perform an act of mercy. I think it's wrong to persecurte them, now, after they were all but abandoned during the storm and the aftermath of the storm.
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post #7 of 45
7/19/06 at 10:49am
If I were in their situation, I can't say I would have acted differently. I find it sad that they first had to go through the hopeless feeling of having to make that decision, and now persecution because they didn't let them die naturally (and possibly painfully).
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post #8 of 45
7/19/06 at 11:02am
Can someone provide links to a few different articles written about this case? I read the front of a newspaper this morning, but it pretty much presented "they aren't god and shouldn't have done it" without presenting a narrative of what actually happened. ie: who died, what they were sick with, what was going on in the hospital, etc. I'd like to read about it from several different sources to get several view points.

~julia

Ps: thanks to catsknowme for the first link!
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post #9 of 45
7/19/06 at 1:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlutgendorf
Can someone provide links to a few different articles written about this case? I read the front of a newspaper this morning, but it pretty much presented "they aren't god and shouldn't have done it" without presenting a narrative of what actually happened. ie: who died, what they were sick with, what was going on in the hospital, etc. I'd like to read about it from several different sources to get several view points.

~julia

Ps: thanks to catsknowme for the first link!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5191772.stm
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/07/18/ho...ths/index.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/19/us...ewanted=1&_r=1
At this point, few details have been suppplied.
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post #10 of 45
7/19/06 at 1:44pm
From what I heard the physical evidence was shady. Sure, they had elevated levels of morphine in their systems....but not the lethal dose. They also don't know who administered the lethal dose. They indicted all four possible people.


I would be shocked if they are actually convicted.
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post #11 of 45
7/19/06 at 2:09pm
Thanks jcat. I'll read through these.

Julia
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post #12 of 45
7/22/06 at 11:55pm
All i'm going to say about this is if Those doctors and nurses were doing the best for their patients... to alleviate pain and suffering in impossible conditions...if that means a lethal dose will help to alleviate the pain then i don't think they have done anything wrong even if that dose causes the death of somebody.
These things happen all the time in 'war' and from what I have read about hurricane catrina it was virtually a war zone.

The hippocricy of man never fails to dishearten me.....
Farm animals are BUTCHERED for meat or fur in the most inhumane way.
'Pet'animals have a right to a 'humane and pain free death'.
Humans are left to suffer the pain and indignity of dying....where is the humanity?
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post #13 of 45
7/23/06 at 9:34am
Humans do get morphine-induced quickenings of deaths. We did so for my grandmother when she had been asleep for days, sick for months, and was having the "death rattles". I watched it. She was well into her 90s, and when she gave my dad power of attorney that was the condition. It was what she wanted.

I really see nothing wrong with what the doctors did if
1) they believed that there was no way to prevent the patients from dying horrible deaths of starvation/drowning/etc.
and
2) the patient were either so severely ill they would not have survived a transfer or they were in end-stages of terminal diseases.

Given that the number of people "killed" is so few compared to the number rescued or moved, I think this is true and the people who did it should be awarded medals, not prosecuted.
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post #14 of 45
7/23/06 at 3:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom
I think they're looking in the wrong places to put blame. My friend was in Florida when it went over, and her great aunt was in New Orleans, and her and her mom called everyone they could think of (red cross, mayor, fire dept, police, etc) to ask them if they could evacuate her great aunt and all she got was a bunch of people saying "Not my problem". It seems like there was a lot of that going on, nobody could get the help they needed and apparently neither could the hospital. I'm sure the people who've been arrested thought they were saving them from a horrible, drowning-in-sewer-water death.
I agree, more details are needed, like what was wrong, if these were all patienst who could never have been moved, etc.

ETA: yes, her great aunt died in her house in New Orleans, because nobody would go get her. And I doubt she's anywhere near the only one.
And to add insult to injury, the people of New Orleans voted that idiot Nagin back in as Mayor. I was astounded.

I cannot believe what the justice system is doing to these caregivers. I also thing they did the only thing they could.

It makes me sad for my country.
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post #15 of 45
7/23/06 at 3:12pm
Here is an older article, but there are lots of details.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5219917

And another from Fox.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,204115,00.html

I am a psych nurse, working in an outpatient clinic. I believe if the doc and nurses administered lethal doses they were wrong. One woman (McManus) had her daughter at her bedside. If they wanted to give her the option of offering her Mom lethal doses, they could have involved her. Another 61 yr old man was alert...again, they could have discussed the situation with him, and let him make the choice.

Medical professionals are faced with dilemmas every day. They do not have the authority to act as they wish...it is the patient and the family who get to decide. To me those in NO crossed the line into criminal behavior if they gave lethal doses of medication. They should have kept pushing for the additional 4 or 9 people to be evacuated. Perhaps they still would have died, but it wouldn't have been at their hands.

I cannot forsee being in the position, but if a doctor gave me an order to administer a lethal dose of medication, I would refuse. I became a nurse to help people, not to kill them.
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post #16 of 45
7/23/06 at 3:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv
And to add insult to injury, the people of New Orleans voted that idiot Nagin back in as Mayor. I was astounded.

I cannot believe what the justice system is doing to these caregivers. I also thing they did the only thing they could.

It makes me sad for my country.
I hate Nagin also.
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post #17 of 45
7/23/06 at 4:26pm
Beckiboo-
Thank you for the details. That changes my opinion a lot. I was assuming before that they had been comatose/had dementia/etc. Apparently they weren't. It still makes me wonder how desperate they must have been...

Of course if they did it out of laziness of trying to move them, then they should be prosecuted.

Will be interesting to watch the story unfold more. It's just amazing how many things went wrong all at once.
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post #18 of 45
7/23/06 at 5:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom
Beckiboo-
Thank you for the details. That changes my opinion a lot. I was assuming before that they had been comatose/had dementia/etc. Apparently they weren't. It still makes me wonder how desperate they must have been...

Of course if they did it out of laziness of trying to move them, then they should be prosecuted.

Will be interesting to watch the story unfold more. It's just amazing how many things went wrong all at once.
Honestly, I don't think it is laziness at all. I think the lazy doctors got out of there early. One doctor was quoted in one of the many articles linked here saying he left before the storm hit. I do believe these medical workers were doing what they thought was right, but anytime you open the possibility to kill rather than save, that is a problem.

I don't know if more evidence will show a reason these people were left behind. Maybe the 370 pound man could not be moved to where the helicopter could transport him. Maybe he weighed too much for the copter. Then, is it right to leave him alone? Can you expect a doctor or nurse to stay alone with a dying person, risking their life further? And if family were removed at gunpoint, maybe the nurses were, too. Maybe they felt this was the only option. I don't think it ever should have become an option.

I don't think anyone just killed people for convenience. But I do think they made the wrong decision.
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post #19 of 45
7/23/06 at 11:17pm
Thread Starter 
[quote=BeckibooCan you expect a doctor or nurse to stay alone with a dying person, risking their life further?QUOTE]
That is an EXCELLENT point!! After all, paramedics do not enter potentially dangerous situations if it can be life threatening to them - they have to wait for the police to secure the scene, no matter how critical the patient is.
So I suppose the doctor & nurses should have saved themselves, since they are needed to live to continue their helping of humanity.
I am sure they realized the consequences of their actions; they DID the deed - I wonder what the sentencing will be. It seems they may have sacrificed their livelihood for nothing, if the patients would have somehow survived - which one wonders how practical that would have been considering that so many perfectly able-bodied younger people perished...
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post #20 of 45
7/24/06 at 2:35pm
Great thread and many thought provoking posts.
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post #21 of 45
7/25/06 at 8:20am
I hope I may be forgiven for picking just a little nit. The title of the post beginning this thread is "'Katrina' doctor and nurses found guilty of killing patients."

Nobody has been "found guilty" of anything. They have been "charged." The difference in this choice of language is critical to what has always been a fundamental and essential element of our system of justice here in the 'States.

It remains to be seen whether or not these persons are ever convicted by a court of law. Should they be, only then will they have been found to be guilty. Until then they are innocent. Personally I would not bet a penny that they will ever be found guilty of the serious offense of which they are charged. If one scans the followup posts on this thread and, by and large, the media, it would appear that they have been acquitted by the court of public opinion. Not many prosecutors, or, if it gets that far, juries, are prepared to take on that burden unless the case is a lot clearer than this one appears at first blush.

With respect,

Jim
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post #22 of 45
7/25/06 at 10:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beach Bum
I hope I may be forgiven for picking just a little nit. The title of the post beginning this thread is "'Katrina' doctor and nurses found guilty of killing patients."

Nobody has been "found guilty" of anything. They have been "charged." The difference in this choice of language is critical to what has always been a fundamental and essential element of our system of justice here in the 'States.

It remains to be seen whether or not these persons are ever convicted by a court of law. Should they be, only then will they have been found to be guilty. Until then they are innocent. Personally I would not bet a penny that they will ever be found guilty of the serious offense of which they are charged. If one scans the followup posts on this thread and, by and large, the media, it would appear that they have been acquitted by the court of public opinion. Not many prosecutors, or, if it gets that far, juries, are prepared to take on that burden unless the case is a lot clearer than this one appears at first blush.

With respect,

Jim
Thank you, Jim. The title has been bothering me, too, and I've been itching to change it to "to be prosecuted for", but was afraid that would seem to heavy-handed.
This is going to sound cynical, but how many really think this will reach the trial stage? It's a high-profile case, so how long will it take for some high- caliber defense teams to start questioning the liability of city, state, and federal officials? Do you think the prosecutor will be "called off" when that happens?
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post #23 of 45
7/25/06 at 1:05pm
I think they made a simple medical mistake. The computer system were out during the storm. During all the confusion and pain they could not possibly keep track of who had been administered painkillers or not. Multiple people could administer painkilers to the same person during the confusion.

It happens all the time.
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post #24 of 45
7/25/06 at 1:13pm
There is absolutely no way that this was a clerical error. Did you read any of the articles?

They administered lethal doses on purpose, the question is simply if it was right or wrong to do so.
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post #25 of 45
7/25/06 at 1:41pm
The articles are written in the position of the prosecutor. I believe they are biased. I think the medical staff were thinking "We'll give them the painkillers again and again so they'll stop screaming because we are already stressed out". It is some kind of mob behavior.

Stupid, but not criminal. For it to become criminal intent must be shown and they must personally benefit from the death of those patients.
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post #26 of 45
7/25/06 at 1:48pm
Okay...

How about this one?
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/07/20/hospital.deaths/
The accused's family doesn't even say it didn't happen, just that it wasn't wrong.

The people who died with lethal levels of morphine in their systems were not even prescribed morphine. So how on earth could a bunch of different nurses have given it to them at the same time, on accident, when it wasn't prescribed and there weren't actually that many employees left by then?

And to be guilty of murder, you do not have to benefit in any way. That is one possible motive. But not the only one.
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post #27 of 45
7/25/06 at 1:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by shengmei
The articles are written in the position of the prosecutor. I believe they are biased. I think the medical staff were thinking "We'll give them the painkillers again and again so they'll stop screaming because we are already stressed out". It is some kind of mob behavior.

Stupid, but not criminal. For it to become criminal intent must be shown and they must personally benefit from the death of those patients.
Still, nowhere does it state anything about this possibly being a clerical error.
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post #28 of 45
7/25/06 at 1:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom
And to be guilty of murder, you do not have to benefit in any way. That is one possible motive. But not the only one.
Absolutely.

In the most common forms of murder (rage or passion), people don't directly benefit in any way. That has nothing to do with an act being criminal.
Its a side effect but not necessarily the cause.
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post #29 of 45
7/25/06 at 2:13pm
"Murder" and/or "homicide" don't seem to be appropriate charges. If anything, "manslaughter" seems fitting. I'd love to see a separate "mercy killing" charge. I really doubt that anybody would be tempted to write the whole situation off as a "clerical error".
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post #30 of 45
7/25/06 at 2:25pm
That is what I thought. The motive cannot be proven. Without motive one cannot be convicted of murder. It is impossible to prove any motive that pertains to "playing God".

I believe that involuntary manslaughter would be a much more appropriate charge.

I believe the defense will argue it was a combination of clerical errors and a mob mentality due to extreme emotional distress.

Why did the attorney general charge them in the first place? I thought it was the job of the district attorney. The whole thing just seems to be very political motivated.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...l/4066573.html
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