KiKi, Phoebe, and Simon

gloriajh · Jul 18, 2006

Bottom line, I don't know what IT looks like when a 2-year old neutered male is interacting with new kittens.

I can't tell what is harmful or natural when my large cat -18lbs- (KiKi) is holding the kittens down, on top of him or her, with his mouth holding a piece of fur ... there's a lot of stuff going on. and I just don't know if it's normal.

So, I'm in a "void", trying not to make a mistake that will hurt their relationships later... etc.

I don't know where to start asking questions to get advice.

KiKi wants to be with them. He talks to them all the time.

I have them, now almost 15 weeks old, in their own room.

They are kept in the room (with a gate) during the day. At night, I close the door for their safety.

When they were first brought home, they were 8 weeks - very little, under 2 lbs. After a few days of them being in the room, and KiKi playing with them through the gate, we brought KiKi into the room with us, and we restrained him from interacting freely with them.

There were no signs of agression, no growling, no ears back, all he wanted to do was hold them down, put his mouth around their little necks while being on top of them. This action reminded me of how he acts with his stuffed animals - well, he wasn't as rough with them as he was with his toys, but I just don't know. YIKES!!

I didn't, and don't, know how safe his actions are for the babies.

We decided to wait until they got bigger before we let them loose, together again.

At 14 weeks, the kittens are coming into their own - feisty, stronger. We let the kittens and KiKi be together last Sunday, everything went a little better (I think?), but after KiKi was all over them for about 15 minutes, I couldn't take it anymore, and put them away. I just didn't know if the kittens were able to fight him off if they were at risk for their safety -- they were/are being very compliant when he is holding them down???

KiKi has the run of the house (never an outdoor cat). During the course of the day my practice is to let the kids out to play, I put him into an enclosed room - I pick his sleeping times - and let the "kids" out to play for a while, then put them away, and then let KiKi out (if he's awake).

Today, I was "brave" (for me) - and let them out _with_ him. He was back at chasing them, grabbing them with his mouth, hold them down, and meowing. At first I though the sound was the kitten, but NO, it's KiKi! WHAT IS THIS?

The little boy (Simon) is jumping on KiKi, the little girl (Phoebe) is jumping on him, they both don't seem to be fearful of KiKi, and will wrestle with him kinda like they do with each other.

Well, when they started to run and hide in a box so KiKi couldn't get to them, I took it to mean they'd had enough (I sure did!!), and put them back into the "nursery".

Later, when KiKi came to me, he seemed sad (but what do I know?), and when I went to pet him, he had the telltale sign of stress - dry skin had appeared on top of his black coat. So, maybe I'm stressing him out, or the kids are stressing him out?

I need to know what to expect. I'm totally in fear that KiKi is going to hurt them by playing too rough.

I probably haven't covered "everthing"....but here I am folks - ready for your expertise, more than ready for any help that you can give.

I know they need to establish who is boss, so, I really don't know what to expect, how that may look, or when I should expect it.

One member in another thread said that they didn't put the kittens together with the older cats until they had the kittens altered.

I have an idea that the problem is me, and I guess that's who I'm trying to fix - I need to know what's usual, natural, and not hurtful behavior.

Thanks,
Gloria

laureen227 · Jul 18, 2006

wow - i am so glad you posted here, 'cause i really have absolutely NO advice for this situation...Cable was a little kitten when i got her, but Pixel & Mouse were not aggressive with her unless she was bugging them - they basically just ignored her most of the time. Java & Cable were approximately the same size when i got Java, when Java was about 3.5 months...& everybody was an adult when Chip came in March. be patient - someone with a simIlar experience is sure to come along soon

gloriajh · Jul 18, 2006

Originally Posted by laureen227

wow - i am so glad you posted here, 'cause i really have absolutely NO advice for this situation...Cable was a little kitten when i got her, but Pixel & Mouse were not aggressive with her unless she was bugging them - they basically just ignored her most of the time. Java & Cable were approximately the same size when i got Java, when Java was about 3.5 months...& everybody was an adult when Chip came in March. be patient - someone with a simIlar experience is sure to come along soon

Thanks!
I guess the thing is, I can't tell if KiKi's being agressive, and I'm actually anxious for someone to help me understand what's happening..., but thanks for reminding me to be patient - help is on the way.

Gloria

laureen227 · Jul 18, 2006

Originally Posted by GloriaJH

Thanks!
I guess the thing is, I can't tell if KiKi's being agressive, and I'm actually anxious for someone to help me understand what's happening..., but thanks for reminding me to be patient - help is on the way.

Gloria

babyharley has a new kitten, & an older cat - check out her thread about Harley & Davidson. she says Harley is washing Davidson, etc. here's the link: http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91190

tunaqueen · Jul 18, 2006

I think you're doing a good job so far! Kiki is doing what normal cats do, showing who's the boss early in the relationship. Mama cats discipline their brood this way too, to keep the little ones in line. As long as his ears don't flatten, his pupils don't dilate, etc, he's actually handling them well. He could get overly aggressive though, so it's a good idea to just keep an eye on everybody and make sure they're playing nice.
My last roommate brought a new kitten into our 3 cat household and my alpha male, Pyewackett, was the one I most concerned for. The other 2 cats took it all in stride but Pye pinned down the 'baby' a few times, mostly to get a good look and let her know who ran things around here. He never hurt her though, and soon saw her as a playmate. She'd eat out of his dish (something that just isnt done!) and he'd hiss, but kittens don't usually care about etiquette and she'd go on eating anyway. I guess he allowed her to share his kingdom after that, he'd try to get her to swat the ball and play chase but it always happened on her terms. Before my roommate moved, she became the alpha female and Pyewackett missed her terribly when she was gone.

I think cats do work these things out by themselves, and need to, as long as their time together is productive and in the beginning, relatively short. Kittens can be annoying to the older cat who's not used to their boundless energy. Give Kiki extra love and don't forget to praise him when he's being a good big brother, but try not to interfere with their interactions unless you hear the "warning" growl. Limiting their "together time" to keep Kiki from feeling overwhelmed is most important, and you're already doing that so I think so far you've got a handle on it. It will get easier, really!

gloriajh · Jul 18, 2006

Originally Posted by laureen227

babyharley has a new kitten, & an older cat - check out her thread about Harley & Davidson. she says Harley is washing Davidson, etc. here's the link: http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91190

Going there .... thank you!

gloriajh · Jul 18, 2006

Originally Posted by TunaQueen

I think you're doing a good job so far! Kiki is doing what normal cats do, showing who's the boss early in the relationship. Mama cats discipline their brood this way too, to keep the little ones in line. As long as his ears don't flatten, his pupils don't dilate, etc, he's actually handling them well. He could get overly aggressive though, so it's a good idea to just keep an eye on everybody and make sure they're playing nice.
My last roommate brought a new kitten into our 3 cat household and my alpha male, Pyewackett, was the one I most concerned for. The other 2 cats took it all in stride but Pye pinned down the 'baby' a few times, mostly to get a good look and let her know who ran things around here. He never hurt her though, and soon saw her as a playmate. She'd eat out of his dish (something that just isnt done!) and he'd hiss, but kittens don't usually care about etiquette and she'd go on eating anyway. I guess he allowed her to share his kingdom after that, he'd try to get her to swat the ball and play chase but it always happened on her terms. Before my roommate moved, she became the alpha female and Pyewackett missed her terribly when she was gone.

I think cats do work these things out by themselves, and need to, as long as their time together is productive and in the beginning, relatively short. Kittens can be annoying to the older cat who's not used to their boundless energy. Give Kiki extra love and don't forget to praise him when he's being a good big brother, but try not to interfere with their interactions unless you hear the "warning" growl. Limiting their "together time" to keep Kiki from feeling overwhelmed is most important, and you're already doing that so I think so far you've got a handle on it. It will get easier, really!

Thank you for your insight, and for your encouraging words. It's good to hear your assessment that KiKi is behaving in a normal cat way, and not trying to harm the kittens.

So far, no growls, no ears back, not sure about his eyes. The only sounds are from him as he's holding them down - maybe he's telling them he's the main guy here?

OK, now I have some clues to look for, and I can rest a little easier when I have them together knowing what I should watch for.

Perhaps if I had only one kitten things it would be a little easier.

Again, thank you for taking the time to help me!

Gloria

P.S. These creatures are both amazing and intriging, I'd rather just be observing this process and enjoying it rather than have all this responsibility.

larke · Jul 19, 2006

Yes, the longer we have cats (or they have us), the more fascinating they get! And that PM I sent was because everyone here's already heard it x 10!

urbantigers · Jul 19, 2006

This is perfectly normal when you have a fully grown cat and a kitten. I have a similar situation with a 9 year old weighing 5.5kg and a kitten. When 2 kittens play together they are about the same size so they can roll around the floor together and it's an equal contest. When one is a lot bigger there's only one way it can end up - with the bigger cat on top!

Even if Kiki just wants to play fight, he's too big for it to be an equal contest. Jaffa did exactly the same with Mosi - holding him down and looking as though he was biting his neck. It was all very non aggressive though and he backed off pretty quickly. Sometimes there was a bit of paw swiping and general play activity - I could tell that Jaffa actually wanted to play but he was too big to be able to play with Mosi like another kitten would. There will be an element of showing the kittens who is boss but as long as he's not hurting them don't worry about it. Kittens are very tough!

The only thing to watch out for is the fact that it might actually become more aggressive as your kittens get older. When Mosi got to about 5 months Jaffa didn't want to play anymore and responded to Mosi's approaches by hissing or growling. He now seems to see Mosi as a threat although he has never attempted to hurt Mosi in any way. A small kitten isn't very threatening to an adult cat but as they mature they are more likely to be perceived as a rival so just keep an eye on them to make sure it doesn't go too far.

gloriajh · Jul 19, 2006

Originally Posted by Larke

Yes, the longer we have cats (or they have us), the more fascinating they get! And that PM I sent was because everyone here's already heard it x 10!

Thank you for the PM. It was really helpful!

Well, even though many (oldies) have already read (know about) your story - it's not something I'd tire of reading about - especially when I know it's in response to a more recent, but same kind of question. I would understand why you were sharing it again.

The site is so full of good stuff, but when a newbie comes, there soooo much to take in - in fact it's a little overwhelming

, and when you have a question that you are desperate to have answered it's tough to get the right wording for a "search", and thus a question (that's probably been asked already) is asked.

I guess what I'm trying to express is.... any newbie would still be able to benefit from your experience, no matter how often it's been shared already, speaking from a Newbie's point of view, that is.

Again, thank you for your thoughtful help!
Gloria

gloriajh · Jul 19, 2006

Originally Posted by urbantigers

This is perfectly normal when you have a fully grown cat and a kitten. I have a similar situation with a 9 year old weighing 5.5kg and a kitten. When 2 kittens play together they are about the same size so they can roll around the floor together and it's an equal contest. When one is a lot bigger there's only one way it can end up - with the bigger cat on top!

Even if Kiki just wants to play fight, he's too big for it to be an equal contest. Jaffa did exactly the same with Mosi - holding him down and looking as though he was biting his neck. It was all very non aggressive though and he backed off pretty quickly. Sometimes there was a bit of paw swiping and general play activity - I could tell that Jaffa actually wanted to play but he was too big to be able to play with Mosi like another kitten would. There will be an element of showing the kittens who is boss but as long as he's not hurting them don't worry about it. Kittens are very tough!

The only thing to watch out for is the fact that it might actually become more aggressive as your kittens get older. When Mosi got to about 5 months Jaffa didn't want to play anymore and responded to Mosi's approaches by hissing or growling. He now seems to see Mosi as a threat although he has never attempted to hurt Mosi in any way. A small kitten isn't very threatening to an adult cat but as they mature they are more likely to be perceived as a rival so just keep an eye on them to make sure it doesn't go too far.

Thank you for confirming, for me, that KiKi is too big right now, and I am OK being a referee.

I'm already feeling more confident in letting them play together because of the good counsel that I'm receiving from everyone.

RE: Kittens getting older, and being aware of change of attitude.
I was hoping that the altering might be helpful in decreasing the potential problems of "rival" behavior -

I am already seeing more changes in the little boy - he's a lot more sure of himself as the "maleness" becomes more obvious (you know what I mean). So a "light bulb" has gone off, and I'm thinking that keeping the boys separated most of the time, until Simon is neutered, might help their relationship be more friendlier in the future ?

Thank you!
Gloria

KiKi, Phoebe, and Simon

gloriajh

FERAl born “Pepper”

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laureen227

Darksome Duo!

gloriajh

FERAl born “Pepper”

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laureen227

Darksome Duo!

tunaqueen

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gloriajh

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larke

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urbantigers

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