Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom
I don't think you understood what I said. I wasn't saying "The Prince" was a bad work, and it certainly does have wisdom if you take it with a grain of salt, and in the way it was intended, and in the context of the time it was written.
The idea that you shouldn't remove another country's leader from power isn't necessarily Machiavellian, and I was trying to say it succinctly, not eloquently. But I said exactly what I meant and I have absolutely no desire to reword it. It is a terrible idea to remove someone else's leader from power. The examples you give aren't exactly counterexamples. We went to great lengths, both times we've been at war with Iraq, to declare war on Iraq as a country, and not just assassinate Saddam Hussein. This most recent war, yes I believe we did remove another country's leader from power, and yes, I think it was wrong. It was also wrong of one of my favorite presidents to try to assassinate Castro. That does not mean I think anything he did was right. Read the book I suggested, or there are several concise versions of the main idea online. Removing a dictator from power almost invariably results in someone worse coming to power, and in the case of Iraq it will be someone even more antipathetic to the US and even more willing to use violence. As for Hitler, we didn't remove him from power. We went to war with the Third Reich, and we won. Yes, I suppose it did technically remove him from power, but our stated and actual intention was to defeat the Reich, not just remove the leader. I guess it's a finer line than I made clear. If you declare war, you declare war on a country, not only on it's leader. And I am fully aware of how terrible Hitler was. But I am also aware of how terrible Pol Pot was, and we didn't do anything then. We didn't do anything when Stalin killed more people than Hitler did, we didn't do anything about the desaparecidos in Latin America aside from train the dictators who lead those countries in America, we didn't do anything when China invaded Tibet... and on and on and on. We did not go to war with Germany over the concentration camps and we in fact wouldn't allow people escaping them to come here as refugees for awhile. We did not go to war with Iraq over humanitarian reasons either. This was not even the stated claim at the beginning of it. Basically, America does not usually remove another country's leader from power, and also we don't go to war over humanitarian concerns ever. My point is, removing Kim Jong Il from power the way we did Saddam Hussein would be a mistake. And I think that is well-known by the people making policy, because they have shown no intention of doing so.
As for the right to rebel and overturn our leaders... trying to do so will land you directly in jail, charged with treason. We have no right to rebel, any more than is naturally uncontrollable by a government. You'll notice that the successful rebellions in history have happened in countries where they were illegal, because when enough people are involved then it's impossible to stop whether it's "legal" or not. I do appreciate that we have more rights than most in questioning our government, though not overturning them, than most countries do, such as voter recalls, etc. Which is why I am free to question the war in Iraq, and a possible war in N Korea, which so far shows no signs of happening.
Hijack over. Notice how careful I was not to mention any particular presidents?
I feel less and less scared of N Korea, I guess, since everyone seems bent on resolving it diplomatically. Yay!
I agree that we should not remove Kim Jong Il from power the same way we did Saddam...Besides, i hardly think we'll find N. Korea's dictator staked out in a cave 1/2 starved anytime soon- that's how Saddam was found. And judging from Kim Jong Il's personality, i seriously doubt he's one to crawl under a rock and hide....He's more likely to calculate some caniving way to hurl the rock onto his enemies. So now, you don't go about dealing with N. Korea's dictator the same way the you did the former leader of Iraq.
I disagree with you that leaders shouldn't be removed- special circumstances call for special measures- and the N. Korea situation is definitely one of those.So was Iraq.
Oh, and in a side note- your post about the US not allowing German concentration camp victims to come to the US....- Many of my family - (and i'm speaking from my family's personal experinces- not text books and internet searches) members were concentration camp survivors who became permenant US citizens after the US graceiously took them in and allowed them to seek citizenship. So while yes, there were short waiting periods and many people weren't allowed in the US immediately- the same goes for EVERYONE trying to seek a permanent residency within the USA. There is a waiting period and you have to go through the proper paperwork just like everyone else does. It's not that America didn't want to help them- they just have certain guidelines and regulations to abide by so that everyone has a chance at citizenship and so that US citizens are not overlooked while new people are entering their neighborhoods and workforces.
--- By the way,i agree with you ( He was one of my fav. presidents as well
Oh, and i'm curious to know what your opinion on Marilyn Monroe is? I have a few juicy conspiracy theories myself I bet you have some good insight on that. Humm maybe we should start another thread? lol.
Have a good one Hissy! I enjoying the chance to debate things with you- you always make a good argument.