I have kind of an odd question about Persians

Originally Posted by Godiva

How can they NOT have breathing problems, sinus drainage problems, etc... with noses like that?

I have a contemporary Burmese, and she has breathing problems along with runny eyes. She had to have surgery for cherry eye, too... that's when their their third eyelid gets "dislocated." My Scottish Fold has somewhat of a flat face, too... and she has to breathe in through her mouth when she purrs. It's so pathetic. They both snort... a lot... while charming, I wonder how uncomfortable they are. Godiva even snores sometimes. Heehee

I think the main reason it's trendy to have extreme types is so that others will know, without a doubt, that the cat is purebred.

I don't mean to offend, and I ignorantly supported a breeder who bred to extremes in the past, but now I feel pretty strongly about it. Even if a good breeder is trying to eliminate these problems, it is still inevitable that some cats will have life-long problems. It's just sad to me... and a commentary on our society's values.

I'm really sorry if I offended anyone...

this is just something that I hope changes in the future, and extreme or not, all the kitties that exist still need good homes, so I am glad to a certain extent that some people still desire the look.

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what's a contemporary burmese?

Here's my favourite type of Persian cat.

I may have the oppisite definition on comtempary burms, but I think they are burms that are not so rounded head type - a little longer in the nose. I've heard of the term but can't remember if they mean the "extreme" burm or the more moderate burm

I agree on the calico link - that's the type I was looking for - the ideal persian - not too extreme but with a nice open flat faced look - not with the "mean" expression that some persians get.

Roscoe almost reminds me of a little maine coon in the background.

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

I may have the oppisite definition on comtempary burms, but I think they are burms that are not so rounded head type - a little longer in the nose. I've heard of the term but can't remember if they mean the "extreme" burm or the more moderate burm

I agree on the calico link - that's the type I was looking for - the ideal persian - not too extreme but with a nice open flat faced look - not with the "mean" expression that some persians get.

Roscoe almost reminds me of a little maine coon in the background.

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To be honest, Roscoe may not be a Persian. I didn't ask her. So I may be wrong. Rpscoe could be a Maine Coone and Persian mix. He does seem to have a bit too much nose, even for the Doll faced, but I do think he is absolutely beautiful.

By the way, the Blue Point Show Siamese you showed me, is way less extreme than SunLee. I guess my photo was taken at an angle where her face looks shorter. However, her ears are smaller than a lot of the Extreme Siamese The Siamese from the cattery where she came from, almost look like Sphynx with hair, they have such HUGE ears. Ms Lee Lee, was the most "normal" looking one of the bunch, and that is probably why they used her as a breeder for a short while, and not a show cat.

Here are some links to pictures of my Little Stanley. Do you think he was an Extreme? I don't think he was a doll face, but he's a lot less extreme than some I've seen.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...eupsmaller.jpg

This one is really poor quality, because I took it with a web cam. It looks grainy, and dingy.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...estanley32.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...s/8Stanley.jpg

Do a lot of persians have breathing problems? It seems to be a common thing that I have heard. If so, why do they have the problems? Wellington: You say your cats do not have problems, what is different about yours and others that do have problems? Are there some persian breeders that push the flat face at the expense of normal breathing and eating abilities? If so, what can and should be done about it?

Sorry for all the questions, I really don't know much about it and am very interested.

Thanks Hope for your comments about Roscoe, he's a registered shaded silver & white RagaMuffin. He is a 1st generation outcross... his dad is a RagaMuffin & his mom is a doll face Persian. RagaMuffin breeders sometimes use outcrosses to broaden the gene pool & in Roscoe's case introduce new colors, but that are only supposed to use so called "bad Persians" that do not have the flat face.


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I love all cats, but I'm not to fond of the extreme flat face Persians. Their noses remind me of bat noses. I'm not too crazy about the extreme Siamese cats either. It's just like everything else.. we all have different tastes.

Originally Posted by WellingtonCats

what's a contemporary burmese?

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That's a bad pic of Godiva in my sig, but she's a comtemporary/American Burmese. They have shorter noses, buggy eyes, and round heads... and these traits are associated with breathing problems, cherry eyes, and even cranial deformities. Yet, these are the ones preferred in the show ring in the US. I think Godiva was sold to me as pet quality because of her obvious breathing problems.

I think the American breeders use the term "traditional" or European to signify the look of the European Burmese or Burmese with longer heads.

http://www.cfainc.org/breeds/profiles/burmese.html
All the Burmese in these photos I would call comtemporary.


Here's a breeder of the more traditional look:
http://burmajesty.com/

Here's a quote from a website that talks about the different styles:
http://www.petplace.com/cats/choosin...ese/page1.aspx

Because the Burmeseâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]s body style has changed over the years, three distinct types exist today: the contemporary, the traditional and the European. The contemporary is currently favored in the show halls. This type has a stocky, compact body that is surprisingly heavy when hefted, a rounded head, a broad, short muzzle, and prominent, round, widely spaced eyes. Accepted colors are sable, champagne, blue and platinum.

The traditional more closely resembles the breed as it appeared when first imported to America: sturdy and muscular but with a distinctly different head type. The head is pleasingly rounded, the face is full, and the muzzle is broad, squared, and well-developed. The traditional comes in the same colors as the contemporary.

The European Burmese is of “foreign†type; this is an elegant, medium-sized cat whose body shape is neither anorexic nor chubby, but somewhere in between. The eyes have a slight slant. The European Burmese also comes in a wider range of colors, including brown, blue, chocolate, lilac, red, cream, seal tortie, brown tortie, blue tortie, chocolate tortie and lilac tortie.

All three types share two things – short, silky fur thatâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]s satin-smooth and very glossy, and personalities that are bound to win over even the most zealous ailurophobe.

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Hope that helps... I love my Godiva to pieces, but I don't think I'll be buying from an extreme breeder again. I was just unaware of the issues back then. No offense. They are all beautiful, but I just don't think it's great for the health of the breed, even if the breeder tries to breed out the problems, it is inevitable that some kittens will be born with problems when you tinker with extreme facial deformities.

Here's Miss Buggy Eyes herself:




And here's Sneakers, her face is more smashed in than the Scottish Folds are supposed to be, I think:


I'm hoping her kittens have a nice face that is inbetween... I bet they'll be gorgeous!

It was the opposite then what I thought on contempory burms. Thanks for the clairification

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

I may have the oppisite definition on comtempary burms, but I think they are burms that are not so rounded head type - a little longer in the nose. I've heard of the term but can't remember if they mean the "extreme" burm or the more moderate burm

I agree on the calico link - that's the type I was looking for - the ideal persian - not too extreme but with a nice open flat faced look - not with the "mean" expression that some persians get.

Roscoe almost reminds me of a little maine coon in the background.

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Honestly that Persian is what we strive for and I hate people telling me that Persians who are being bred to the standard and wrong blah blah blah...

Here are a few examples of my cats:

my girl Bridget






Only a baby in these pictures so excuse the big ears but I wouldn't call her extreme. She did very well as a baby.

This cat is currently the top cat overall in this country -



This is the last kitten I bred - extreme? NO!



Another kitten I bred (Bridget's litter brother)



Applause - one of my longer nosed kittens - had worse eye problems then her snub nosed siblings



Another of our kittens



one of my Nana's queens

I hate this blanket statment that PERSIANS have bad health. It's like me saying all Domestic owners are careless because there cats are always getting knocked up by mongrel cats. I wouldn't use a blanket statment like that because I know of a lot of responsible Domestic cat owners whos cats don't get mated by the local tom - it's exactly the same not all Persians have health problems and not all Persian breeders are bad. Please stop making these statements.

I've got to go to the Pedigree Persian Cat Fanciers meeting now but I'll be back to talk more tomorow.

Wellington, if you were referring to my post, them I apologize. I wasn't making statements of any kind. I had heard some things mentioned and was asking questions about it.

I'm sure not all breeders are sacrificing the cats health for extreme features. But there is enough talk to make me think that SOME are. If there are, what if anything can or should be done about it?

Originally Posted by Telynn

I'm sure not all breeders are sacrificing the cats health for extreme features. But there is enough talk to make me think that SOME are. If there are, what if anything can or should be done about it?

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The only way to affect the conformation is to become involved in the breed- no one outside of it is going to affect anything, nor should they be able to.
Judges only judge what the breeders put in front of them, and breeders are presumably breeding to improve the breed, not breeding what will win. It's kind of a vicious circle with both breeders and judges bearing equal responsibility IMO.

So unless you are a Persian breeder actively working to produce typey cats with healthy faces, or a judge who is in a position to determine what is winning then you really have no chance of influencing the direction conformation is taking.

I have to say though, that cats have been having their conformation manipulated by humans for what- maybe a couple of hundred years? Dogs are much worse because humans have been designing them for much longer than that- we've had longer to screw them up. And the earliest creature gotten hold of and changed for aesthetic reasons- the lowly Goldfish, selectively bred since the B.C's has it the worst of all. They've been contorted into monstrosities.

We seem determined to remake animals into forms that we find pleasing while giving only lip service to what is good for the species in question. It is not too late for the Persians by any means, but some of the breeders I have met make me really fear for them.

Wellington,

Your kitties are absolutly GORGEOUS! They are not extreme but to the standard. While persians/exotics are not my "cup of tea" I do admire an excellant example of any of the breeds - your are one of them. Be proud of what you have bred/shown

Originally Posted by WellingtonCats

Honestly that Persian is what we strive for and I hate people telling me that Persians who are being bred to the standard and wrong blah blah blah...

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Those aren't very extreme, and still hold close enough to the natural look of feline faces to not have problems.

I have, however seen very extreme faces where the nose was almost above the eyes, and sunken in way more than those noses. In my opinion, there is no way on Earth those couldn't have huge sinus/breathing issues.

I don't know anything about the different cat associations but there is a Traditional Cat Association. At one time I was thinking about getting a Siamese but I didn't want a real extreme one. They list breeders for the traditional cats including the doll faced Persians. They list two different kinds of Siamese, the Applehead and a Classic. The classic is between the Applehead and the very extreme ones that are favored by judges now.

Wellington--- your cats are GEORGOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I myself prefer the smaller noses but not the extreme ones that they look like they have NO nose. I have a "pet quality" persian and to me he has a BIG nose. LOL he doesn't have the indent between his eyes like he should or the "bump" for his forhead as he should (sorry been so long since we bred himmies that I can't remember the "true" word for those 2 things. LOL). but I love him anyways. He is my baby.

Originally Posted by Telynn

Wellington, if you were referring to my post, them I apologize. I wasn't making statements of any kind. I had heard some things mentioned and was asking questions about it.

I'm sure not all breeders are sacrificing the cats health for extreme features. But there is enough talk to make me think that SOME are. If there are, what if anything can or should be done about it?

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Hi there

No need to apoligise. Of course some breeders are, but they are doing so in all breeds and I'm not sure exactly how they can be stopped but they do need to be. An over extreme cat isn't desirable and I can't personally think of one breeder in the world who is breeding them to the extreme.