I have kind of an odd question about Persians

I was just wondering if anyone knew why they made the breed standard to be the flat faced, peeked version instead of the more beautiful doll faces or should I say longer nosed Persian? Why would they choose a look that looks more like an elderly English kind of grouchy judge with huge jowls, with breathing problems, and runny eyes as the breed standard? The longer nosed version is so much more beautiful, and it's much healthier to have a proper nose. So who decided that the cat has to be almost hugly to be what a Persian is SUPPOSED to look like? I just can't understand why anyone would want to do something like that to a cat. I have never seen a long nosed Persian that wasn't beautiful. I just don't understand what is wrong the the cat assosiations.

I am not a Persian owner, breeder, or any other sort of Persian person.
But I do know that breed standards represent an aesthetic ideal, and that fads come and go within the acceptable ranges of what constitutes a proper head. I do feel as if they are just on one end of a huge pendulum swing towards the extreme right now- extreme faces win, and so extreme faces are popular.

Personally, I find Persians with a bit more nose to be far more attractive, and believe that a working set of nasal passages is every cats right. But if you look to dog breeds you can see that extremes of type are getting worse, not better, so you have to wonder where the flat faces are going to stop.

Hope I have not blasphemed against Persians/owners/breeders....

I know nothing about persians as far as breeding but I love the cute little flat faces. I do understand your point about the health issues, though. I guess its just the fact that its different. Kind of like how they keep trying to make dog breeds smaller and smaller and smaller despite the health problems with their nervous systems and all.

I agree on looks coming and going. On the opposite end is the exteme siamese and orientals. So maybe 50 yrs from now the doll-face persian and/or more moderate type of siamese will be the "in" look.

Then again, maybe its more of the cat looking different enough to not resemble a mixed breed long hair, etc.

You don't understand, Hope. The properly bred Persians don't have breathing difficulties. All Persians have runny eyes. Somem of my long nosed ones have been the worst. But we're working on it.

I'm happy the standard is a short nose set in between the eyes. They look much more attractive this way, and Hope I was reading a book from 1936 the other day and you know the standard hardly ever changed - just a very minor wording changes but this is what they had been striving for back in the days.

I have an extreme faced persian and he has no breathing problems. WHen he plays to much he breaths out of his mouth but so did any other of my DSH cats growing up. the vet did suggest a procedure to open up his nostrils more if he did have/develop and breathing problems. But he is perfectly normal and quite beautiful with no breathing issues what so ever. I prefer the extreme face to the long nose persians although both are beautiful kitties.

Crystal

I used to have an extreme faced little Persian named Stanley. He passed on to the Rainbow Bridge at such a young age, due to liver failure. My vet told me that the extreme faced Persians weren't quite as strong as other cats. Stanley was extreme faced, but he was still a cute little guy. He did however, kind of snort once in a while, not loud or anything, but I culd hear it when he was close to me. The biggest problem I had with him as far as his peek face went, was that he had a very hard time eating wet food. It was almost like he was drowning trying to eat wet food. I prefer the Persians with a nose, like the one you see on those Fancy Feast commercials. I think that cat is just one of the most beautiful cats I've ever seen.

How can they NOT have breathing problems, sinus drainage problems, etc... with noses like that?

I have a contemporary Burmese, and she has breathing problems along with runny eyes. She had to have surgery for cherry eye, too... that's when their their third eyelid gets "dislocated." My Scottish Fold has somewhat of a flat face, too... and she has to breathe in through her mouth when she purrs. It's so pathetic. They both snort... a lot... while charming, I wonder how uncomfortable they are. Godiva even snores sometimes. Heehee

I think the main reason it's trendy to have extreme types is so that others will know, without a doubt, that the cat is purebred.

I don't mean to offend, and I ignorantly supported a breeder who bred to extremes in the past, but now I feel pretty strongly about it. Even if a good breeder is trying to eliminate these problems, it is still inevitable that some cats will have life-long problems. It's just sad to me... and a commentary on our society's values.

I'm really sorry if I offended anyone... this is just something that I hope changes in the future, and extreme or not, all the kitties that exist still need good homes, so I am glad to a certain extent that some people still desire the look.

Originally Posted by Godiva

How can they NOT have breathing problems, sinus drainage problems, etc... with noses like that?

...

I don't mean to offend, and I ignorantly supported a breeder who bred to extremes in the past, but now I feel pretty strongly about it. Even if a good breeder is trying to eliminate these problems, it is still inevitable that some cats will have life-long problems. It's just sad to me... and a commentary on our society's values.

I'm really sorry if I offended anyone...

this is just something that I hope changes in the future, and extreme or not, all the kitties that exist still need good homes, so I am glad to a certain extent that some people still desire the look.

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I'm glad this topic came up, because I wanted to ask the same question, of course without offending anyone.

It seems like breeding a deformity into the breed to me, although I do understand that breeders try to avoid that. I just feel like, why risk a sick cat, for a particular aesthetic? I agree that it is a commentary on society's values, and I realise that it's hard to divorce ourselves from that, but it seems to me that the most ethical thing to do would be to stop breeding for extreme faces, rather than trying to breed for extreme faces without breathing problems - surely you will produce many extra sick kitties along the journey, solely to achieve this look?

I believe that it is a documented feature of human behavior that we favor faces with big round eyes that are large in proportion to the head- an infant type face. That's why we "ooh aahh" over baby puppies and kittens (and any infant animal) with their big moppet eyes. It is a trait designed to direct us towards nurturing babies, and it has slipped over into pet animal conformation as well.

What put me off the extremes was a conversation with a Persian breeder at a cat show. She was kind of " ho hum" about whether they could breathe or not and told me to just take them and have the surgery done if it bothered me. Not all breeders are so callous, I know that, but she really favored a typey head over a functional one, and I find that unacceptable.

HopeHacker- the Fancy Feast cat is a silver- I can never remember if she is a shaded silver or chinchilla, but the silvers always have more nose than the other colors. One more reason I like them best.

Originally Posted by Cearbhaill

I believe that it is a documented feature of human behavior that we favor faces with big round eyes that are large in proportion to the head- an infant type face. That's why we "ooh aahh" over baby puppies and kittens (and any infant animal) with their big moppet eyes. It is a trait designed to direct us towards nurturing babies, and it has slipped over into pet animal conformation as well.

What put me off the extremes was a conversation with a Persian breeder at a cat show. She was kind of " ho hum" about whether they could breathe or not and told me to just take them and have the surgery done if it bothered me. Not all breeders are so callous, I know that, but she really favored a typey head over a functional one, and I find that unacceptable.

HopeHacker- the Fancy Feast cat is a silver- I can never remember if she is a shaded silver or chinchilla, but the silvers always have more nose than the other colors. One more reason I like them best.

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Admittedly, Persians have BIG ROUND eyes. My little Stanley had them as well. However, I don't think a Persian has to have a smushed in face in order to have big eyes. Cagnes, a member of TCS has a beautiful Persian with a nose, and the BIGGEST most beautiful soulful eyes you'd ever want to see in a cat, and my Bengal, Simba isn't even a Persian, and he has ENORMOUS eyes. I'm still wondering why anyone would prefer a smushed in face to a beautiful delicate face with a nose. Persians that aren't breed standard still have smaller noses than most other cats, and to be honest, you don't need a smushed in face to know a Persian when you see one.

Even dogs with smushed in faces have trouble breathing and tend to have more health problems that other dogs. I used to have a neighbor with two of those little flat faced dogs (for the life of me, I can't remember the breed name, but they are tiny, a cremey beige colour, and are sort of tipped like a Siamese cat). Anyway, when she would walk those little dogs, you could hear them snorting down the street.

I realize that breeders may be working on getting the breathing problems out of the Extreme flat faced Persians, but a lot of little kitties have had to suffer through life on the road to this. Personally, I think a Persian with a nose is just more asthetically pleasing. I don't mean a long nose like my SunLee (Siamese), but a cute little delecate nose. Like I said, they still have a lot less of a nose than most other cats, but they sure are beautiful. And they can eat wet food out of regular cat dish without a big problem. If I were ever to get a Persian again, I would definately get one with a nose. I never want to go thru the heartache of losing a 2 year old kitty like that again, and feel sorry for him, because he had to eat dry food all of the time, while the other kitties got to eat wet food.

Being in the show cat fancy, I've seen extreme persians and those not so extreme. I also know because of the size of the heads, many persians have to have c-sections as the kittens heads are too big (burmese sometimes have that same problem).

I read an article many years ago about the "peke face" persians which are more extreme then some you all consider "extreme". They said they had many breathing problems and kittens were very fragile.

Both the judges and the breeders are at fault because the breeders only give the judges what they want to be as the standard. And some judges will put up extreme persians as the best - so the breeders in turn try to match that type. If you want things to change its a slow process. And an uphill battle.


BTW the Fancy Feast is a chinchilla persian - very little black tipping on the coat. I like the silver/chinchilla persians as they are not so extreme. Pluse they have pretty green eye color

Personally, I'd prefer a cat to look like a cat with little genetic problems. Even in the siamese/orientals (which are my fav) I do not like the very extreme breeds. But I also don't want to see the traditional siamese in the ring competing against extreme siamese. If those traditional breeders want their cats to compete, they have to be a separate breed - otherwise you have too much difference in one breed.

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Being in the show cat fancy, I've seen extreme persians and those not so extreme. I also know because of the size of the heads, many persians have to have c-sections as the kittens heads are too big (burmese sometimes have that same problem).

I read an article many years ago about the "peke face" persians which are more extreme then some you all consider "extreme". They said they had many breathing problems and kittens were very fragile.

Both the judges and the breeders are at fault because the breeders only give the judges what they want to be as the standard. And some judges will put up extreme persians as the best - so the breeders in turn try to match that type. If you want things to change its a slow process. And an uphill battle.


BTW the Fancy Feast is a chinchilla persian - very little black tipping on the coat. I like the silver/chinchilla persians as they are not so extreme. Pluse they have pretty green eye color

Personally, I'd prefer a cat to look like a cat with little genetic problems. Even in the siamese/orientals (which are my fav) I do not like the very extreme breeds. But I also don't want to see the traditional siamese in the ring competing against extreme siamese. If those traditional breeders want their cats to compete, they have to be a separate breed - otherwise you have too much difference in one breed.

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Regarding Siamese: Here's a picture of my SunLee. She's a modern Siamese as opposed to the older AppleHead Siamese. I don't think she's that extreme. I think she's the happy medium in the bread. Of course she's more extreme than the AppleHead, but not to the point where she doesn't look like a cat.



Re: Persians.

Here's a signature I made of Cagnes Cat, Roscoe, in the Siggy Shower. To me, he is what a Persian should look like. He is perfect IMO, and I think he is what the standard should be.

I honestly don't much like the look of extreme faced persians or modern siamese compared to their predecessors. I also fail to see how the extreme faces where the nose is above/right between the eyes couldn't have problems. That's not a natural place for the nose to be on a cat.

Someday, I'd love to have a dollface persian. They're very beautiful, and most that I've met have been very calm and sweet.

SunLee is very nice - more of an inbetween. However, "I" prefer a little more extreme (not a lot) in a show siamese but agree SunLee is my type of what a siamese should look like

But again (this is my opinion) - Roscoe is not extreme enough for a persian type in the show ring. He's closer to a pet - he should be a little more flat faced. I've seen some of the "dollfaced" persians that, again, hit the happy medium - they look like a very nice persian but their faces would make them stand out as being a purebred and not random mixed breed longhair. But some of the doll faced persians should have a little shorter ears and more of a flat face - otherwise they are not that different.

I like the look of the shaded silver persians as they are not super extreme but more of a nice flat face

This is a nice show siamese that is not extreme.

http://www.blue-gem.com/images/elenor306.jpg

This is a doll-face male :

http://www.daphnesdolls.com/breeders_felix.jpg

Compare to a nice not really extreme:

http://www.bayoumoon.com/bmc/bayou-m...pg&Type=binary


Here's a shaded silver - very good example of show quality - not super extreme:

http://www.wyndcreste.com/images/liaison.jpg

This would be an extreme persian:

http://www.gorki.net/breeds/Pekefased1.JPG


Notice with the different persians (doll face to extreme). The doll-faced needs to have shorter ears -they are too long compared to the persian standard. The calico and shaded silver have nice short round ears - proper for the standard.

Originally Posted by HopeHacker

I used to have an extreme faced little Persian named Stanley. He passed on to the Rainbow Bridge at such a young age, due to liver failure. My vet told me that the extreme faced Persians weren't quite as strong as other cats. Stanley was extreme faced, but he was still a cute little guy. He did however, kind of snort once in a while, not loud or anything, but I culd hear it when he was close to me. The biggest problem I had with him as far as his peek face went, was that he had a very hard time eating wet food. It was almost like he was drowning trying to eat wet food. I prefer the Persians with a nose, like the one you see on those Fancy Feast commercials. I think that cat is just one of the most beautiful cats I've ever seen.

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Hope, this is just ONE Persian, ONE experience.

Stanley had a lot of health problems - if you've owned multiple Persians you will see not all Persians are like that.

My four cats do not have any breathing problems and they have lovely open faces that the standard calls for. There is no where in our standard (world over) that calls for an extreme face.

Oh well I'm glad I've got my snub nose Persians, rather have them then cats with a big conk for a nose. I adore their short noses!

Originally Posted by HopeHacker

Regarding Siamese: Here's a picture of my SunLee. She's a modern Siamese as opposed to the older AppleHead Siamese. I don't think she's that extreme. I think she's the happy medium in the bread. Of course she's more extreme than the AppleHead, but not to the point where she doesn't look like a cat.



Re: Persians.

Here's a signature I made of Cagnes Cat, Roscoe, in the Siggy Shower. To me, he is what a Persian should look like. He is perfect IMO, and I think he is what the standard should be.

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Sorry but first glance he doesn't even look like a Persian. He's got high ears, wide at the base. A large roman like nose. Not even a round head. He looks about as Persian as me.

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Compare to a nice not really extreme:

http://www.bayoumoon.com/bmc/bayou-moon-persian-cat-get-image.asp?ImageName=cats\\28.jpg&Mode=jpg&Type=binary

Notice with the different persians (doll face to extreme). The doll-faced needs to have shorter ears -they are too long compared to the persian standard. The calico and shaded silver have nice short round ears - proper for the standard.

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This link I have quoted is of an ABSOLUTELY STUNNING Persian - this is what my cats look like and exactly what they should look like!!

Shaded silvers now are getting much more typier - I love them however!

That "doll-face" one is an awful example of a Persian - looks to be long. Pricked ears.

The peke faced is beautiful but too extreme and that's why us breeders steer clear.

Oh and the term is small. Nice small round well set ears.