Baptism

If you don't believe in the religion, well, then it's just water being sprinkled on your head. If you do, then it's so much more than that.
Maybe your brother is religious and just doesn't talk about it. Maybe he wants his children to be raised religiously. My sister does as well, and for very good reasons (such as, it's one of few communities left that treat people the way we should all be treating one another, and if her kids are religious, then good!) even though she doesn't necessarily believe it herself.

If you feel it would be disrespectful to do so for your own kids, then don't do it. But one thing that always surprises everyone about each other is what someone's views on religion really are. We can know someone for twenty years and never really know.

If you have a Catholic background, your brother may still have the idea that unbaptized children who die go to Limbo in the back of his mind. Pope Benedict just revised that a few months ago (now they go to Heaven). My twin and I were actually baptized twice because of that belief - we had a "lay" baptism in the delivery room, because one of the nurses was a Catholic, and was afraid we wouldn't make it, having been born prematurely, and then the normal "Christening" in church weeks/months later.

I don't really see why he would have them baptized if he isn't a Christian, other than it being for tradition or for some deep seated idea that if he doesn't have them baptized they could go to hell. No major Christian denomination, including the Catholic Church, has believed that non-baptized infants will go to hell for a long time. Whether individual church members or priests believed this is another matter (they believed wrongly), the Catechism is pretty clear about the issue and has been, even pre-Vatican II. I can't imagine why a priest, or any pastor would rebaptize a kid, as Christians are supposed to believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins and any baptized Christian can baptize in an emergency (using the words "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" and sprinkling with water), even that is a pre-Vatican II idea. Benedict really just reinforced it.

I just can't help but wonder why he is having them baptized, unless he wants them to be Christian or is using it as a pre-emptive measure to ensure they will get into heaven.

It was a very conservative parish. I also had "First Holy Communion" twice. There was a special mass for the Girl Scouts (I was a Brownie), and since we were sitting in the front pew, the priests just walked in front of the pews and gave communion. When I opened my mouth to say I hadn't had my "First Communion" yet, the priest on our side stuck the host in my mouth. My parents had to stop him from giving other Brownies communion. To make a long story short, since I hadn't had the necessary instruction, I had to do it "officially", too.

Lots of people treat baptism like church weddings and funerals, as society 'rites of passage' that are the best way we have of expressing the most important events in our lives - being born, choosing a partner and dying. And although these can all be done in other ways, the religious ways that have been honed for hundreds of years are formal and serious, even if one doesn't agree with the theology behind it all. It is religious people who have the right to be angry at their ceremonies being hijacked and treated with less than full respect. My brother also got married in church and had his two daughters baptised, though not in the Catholic church, which is what we were born into. I know he doesn't feel religious any more, as we have talked about it several times since childhood. He just felt it was somehow 'right' to do things in the most formal way he could.

When you have your child baptized, you have to make a promise to raise your child in the faith. If you are not religious yourself, then you have to lie. Lying is obviously a bad thing.

Why not make up a secular ceremony, like a "naming ceremony" or something like that, for family and friends to celebrate the arrival of a new baby?

Is he open to talking about it? It might be an interesting discussion.

I have a friend who was raised Catholic, and really does not believe. She and her husband had a defrocked Catholic priest come to their home to baptize their child to keep her Mom (the baby's grandma) happy! I think that is rather disrespectful, but it worked for her!

While your brother and his girlfriend may not be religious, never underestimate the power of family members! There may be some presure from other family members who believe baptism is very important. It could be something that to them, isn't important enough to upset family over, so they've agreed to it.

~Julia

Indeed.

I might not look religious because I don't go to church on Sundays, but I am an Orthodox Quaker and I read the Bible everyday. In my opinion a personal relationship with God is much more important than a communal relationship with God.

A Baptism is a beautiful ceremony no matter what religion it is. The baby wears a beautiful gown, candles are lit, there is an excuse to hire a photographer.......beautiful dresses are worn by all attendees. It is a celebration and a beautiful celebration (much more tasteful than some of the weddings I had been to).

A celebration for a birth is beautiful no matter what religion you are in. Births are celebrated by all cultures and religions, and they should always be celebrated. There is nothing more beautiful than procreation.

I used to be a Daoist Buddhist and they had some kind of baptism also. It is simply a beautiful ceremony dealing with procreation and water. A baptism is only what people make it to be. It doesn't even have to be Christian.

I think also here we ought to think about whether or not it is right to force religion on kids at all. When a friend of mine was a young child, his parents had him baptized, and as long as they possibly could, they forced him to attend church and say prayers.

The day of his eighteenth birthday he moved out and never spoke to them again. He had told them for six years that he did not agree with their church's beliefs, and they only cared about "saving" him.

When you get a child baptized, you can never remove that baptism. All through the person's life, they will forever be considered a nonpracticing member of that religion, whether they like it or not. Many religions refuse to recognize when a person breaks away from their church.

The best possible reason (aside from beliefs) to baptize is legalities.

Should anything happen to you, your partner, or blood relatives, a God parent is looked upon by the court system as close to the child and therefore favored over placing them in the system and up for adoption.

I would hope they wouldn't automatically go anywhere, unless there was a will.

The court systems are pretty good at placing kids in the best possible place, but God parents would be favored over strangers, just as blood relatives would be favored over God parents.

In the end though, they're placed with the best prospective parents.

I never heard that before. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying I don't believe you, I'm just suprised. That means that I am a non practicing member of 2 different protestant denominations. Well, thats ok with me.

In 1957 or '58 my mother was ex-communicated from the Catholic church for marrying my dad because he was divorced. What status would her baptism be? Does that mean that her baptism is annuled or would it still count? Again, I'm not arguing, I just never thought of it before.

In case of excommunication, she is considered as no longer a part of that faith. In any way. Therefore, the baptism is null.

It is interesting that you mention Catholicism. That is the religion that my friend was forced into. It considers you Catholic for life, unless excommunicated like your mother. Therefore, a person baptized as a Catholic, even if he or she converts to radical atheism, is always considered (by the Catholics) a non-practicing Catholic.

Thats kind of funny and sad at the same time.


I am not by any means well-versed in the subject of religion. I always thought that being baptised was not only representative of one's relationship with the church (once he/she is old enough to understand baptism, of course), but also representative of one's relationship with Jesus.

Just for the heck of it, here's another interesting situation concerning baptism. Back in the late 1800s, my great-grandmother was a staunch Catholic & a mid-wife. She considered it her duty to baptize any baby she delivered, regardless of the parents' religious affiliation. Apparently, she did this openly until the parents began telling others in the household to watch her, and not let her baptize their baby. She continued to baptize secretly, while she was washing the new-born. Who knows how many babies she delivered & baptized? She obviously thought she was saving their little newborn souls.
So, would these children be considered Catholic by virtue of their un-asked-for baptism? (I was raised Catholic, attended Catholic schools for 12 years, and I have no idea how to answer that question.)

Well, if anyone knew about it, then the answer is yes. If your ancestor made sure to keep the identities of those children secret, then probably nobody cares. The church would have considered them Catholic had it known.

Technically, if you believe in God and the Catholic church being right, you should consider them Catholic.

Is it just me or do people have more problems with a Catholic baptism than with a Protestant baptism?

Not particularly. I just know for sure that the Catholic church is adamant about the idea of, "Once a Catholic, always a Catholic!"

I do not know about Protestant baptism in particular.

Shengmai, I'm techinically a Quaker! I am not an orthodox quaker however. I'm a member of the Indiana Yearly Meeting, yay fun. Anywho- onto Catholicism and baptism.

Once baptized you are always baptized. Excommunication does not mean your baptism is null, it just means you are no longer considered a member of that denomination. I am converting to Catholicism (I'm in RCIA), my husband is not. After Vatican II it wasn't a big deal to marry a non-Catholic. I don't have to take any special measures when it comes to my marriage. Had either of us been married before- the divorcee would need an annulment. If he were a non-practicing Catholic and I were marrying him as a catechumen (a person who has professed a desire to be Catholic and is going to classes, etc) and we wanted our marriage blessed he would just have to do a little ceremony where he's taken back into church by recommitting himself. In order to be fully Catholic you have to be confirmed, so just being baptized by a priest really means no more than being baptized by a Lutheran minister as far as church membership goes. Baptism is a welcoming of a person into the community of Christ, with a promise to raise them up with Christian values, it may or may not involve joining a congregation. As a chaplain I baptize people and just give them a certificate, the fact that I'm a Quaker going Catholic doesn't make my baptisee either Quaker or Catholic. A baptized person joining the Catholic Church just has to go through RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults) as a candidate for full communion with the Catholic Church. You are a Christian who wants to be Catholic. Your baptism is recognized- you won't be re-baptized.

A person who is excommunicated can be brought back into the church. It isn't necessarily a permanent thing. A lot has changed since the 70's, but that has always been true. It usually just takes an appeal to a bishop. In the case of a dying person, they can be brought back into the faith without going through any special hoops.

Depending on what my husbands religion is then i dont know weather i would baptise my child, he would most likely not be catholic so id have to look into other ways.

To me baptism is only a excuse to have a party, and that the child "has something"

If i were to have children, I don't know if I would do a baptism. If i did, I probably wouldn't do it under the Catholic system. I was baptized and raised Catholic, but I really don't fully believe in the religion. I consider myself more of a spritual person.

Anyhoo, and B is agnostic...so unless he and I break up and I find someone else who IS religious I doubt I would take the time to baptize.

I was baptized in the Catholic church when I was 3 weeks old, attended Catholic schools for 12 years, married in the Catholic church. Before we married (hubby's non-Catholic), we had to promise to raise any children as Catholics. By the time our daughter came along, I was non-practicing. More for the sake of my family than anything else, I had her baptized & sent her to the same Catholic grade school I had attended. She was 5 y/o at the time (we adopted her at age 4) & the baptism was also to enable her to "fit in" with the other kids at school. She was also given 2 god-parents, 2 of my siblings. They seem to have formed an even closer bond with her because they are her god-parents. If nothing else, being baptized resulted in a closer sense of family for her.
Like lunasmom, I consider myself more of a spiritual person than anything else. My daughter is just about old enough now to make her own decisions about religion, and I'm trying hard to respect that.

What's wrong with a party?

For me, criticizing somebody's baptism choice is like a violation of First Amendment rignts........not so cool.

There are three things I don't like to criticize: weddings, funerals, and baptisms.

You have to take things in context. Fran, like myself, lives in a country where people nowadays seem to combine weddings (if any) with the baptism of their children (again, if any), and funerals are becoming increasingly "out". Germany is much more secular than the U.S., even though there is no constitutional separation of church and state.

I thought secularism means not caring about what other people do about religion.

I could be wrong...........I am not sure what goes on at Germany about such things. In Texas it seems to be an excuse to have barbeque and beer.