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Persian question

post #1 of 13
Thread Starter 
i am quite curious. I know you all say that just because a cat looks like a pedigree/purebed, it isn't one unless you have the paperwork, and I know that there are some breeds that can have lookalikes with no pedigree parents. But how does that work with a Persian - can the Persian 'look' occur in non-pedigrees??
post #2 of 13
Personally, I think the Persian face mutation is rare enough to warrant the thought of pure in the line of a moggie. Also Persians have been around for so long, there are a lot of breeders, some of which are probably not reputable. If there is a long-haired cat in the shelter with an obvious persian face then it was probably from someone that was irresponsible with a purebred. But again thats my personal opinion.

This is not the case with siamese though as the pointed gene is very common. Also fur mutations occur pretty frequently. The pugged face though...I think its pretty rare unless breed for it.
post #3 of 13
I agree with Solitary:

here is my Eliott whom I adopted from a shelter I worked at. I am pretty confidant in saying he is a purebred Persian but of course I have no paperwork. He was dumped at a carwash as an unneutered severly matted 6 year old. I have a feeling he was used for breeding despite his snaggletooth.
post #4 of 13
I love the snaggle tooth!!
post #5 of 13
IMO there are certain breeds that are "different" enough to tell they are purebred without papers. Rexes are one, extreme siamese/orientals are another. I'm sure I could pick out a purebred Russian Blue or Burmese too if they looked close to the standard.

I don't like saying just cause you don't have papers, you don't have a purebred. I would say it looks very close to a purebred but would not necessarily say its a mix.

As long as the cat is neutered/spayed and you are not breeding it and falsifying that its a "purebred" without papers, whats the harm?
post #6 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45
As long as the cat is neutered/spayed and you are not breeding it and falsifying that its a "purebred" without papers, whats the harm?
Maybe that people don't care about buying from responsible breeders. Where I come from a pedigree means at least certain health tests have been performed. Although it's probably not the case with real lovers of certain breeds, there are people who feel there is a status attached to owning a purebred cat since it kinda says "expensive" to the outside world. These people probably don't really care about HCM/PKD etc testing, much less about bettering a breed. As long as the cat looks purebred. The local shady pet-dealer loves to get her hands on white kittens which she sells as Angora's (at that age they're still fluffy). Such people profit from such a way of thinking.

I have two moggies that most people think are purebred cats, I got them for free from a friend, but when people tell me how lucky I am to have gotten "such a good deal" and that I was crazy to pay the money for two purebred kittens I will them that I love my eldest two very much, but that I will never adopt a cat in the same way again just because I love them, since it turned out my cats could very well be the result of inbreeding (father/daughter or brother/sister) and I often worry about any healthproblems they might develop as a result. Also, they have not been socialized right and the male harasses his sister, I am looking into therapy for this. People should realize that just what you see is a small part of what you get, what most people want is a healthy, companiable, pretty cat, but they go out and just look for pretty. If you encourage people in calling any blue cat (most people don't know about type) a Russian Blue, Chartreux or British Blue, they will go out next time they want a kitten and get a blue one off the local backyard breeder. Of course this doesn't apply to people who get a cat from the shelter. (In my country almost the only purebred cats you see in shelters are Persians, again, people just want a pretty cat, don't realize they have to care for the pretty hairs too)

And unfortunately a lot of people who come online wanting to know what breed their purebred-looking cat is do want to breed. I remember this lady who wanted to breed Siamese, the cats didn't have a pedigree, but after some checking it turned out they were closely related. One of the reasons a purebred isn't a purebred without the papers, to avoid such mistakes.
post #7 of 13
Thread Starter 
My question wasn't about breeding, I am not actually a Persian fan. It is jsut I am interested in genetics, and I appreciate that a pointed cat doesn't mean a Siamese, and a tailless cat doesn't mean a Manx, but didn't think there were many genes that could cause the Persian face, so wondered if they could still be called PErsians without papers.
post #8 of 13
I don't and never have encouraged a person to breed their cat cause it looked like a purebred - far from it. And I would not tell a person their blue cat was a RB, Korat, British. I was going by the question that if people ask if their cat "could" be a purebred whatever, then I would not say "oh you just have a mixed breed - its not purebred cause you don't have papers to prove so".

If they asked about breeding cause it looked like a purebred, then I would definately discourage that on the basis of look alikes. I just don't agree with people saying my cat is not a purebred cause it lacks papers.

Personally, my 15 yr old rex (who's neutered) is a purebred and long pedigree. But I do NOT have his papers/pedigree any more. After retiring him, I didn't need them. So if anyone asks me if he's purebred - of course he is even if I cannot "prove" it by his papers.

I'm pretty sure that the person above has a purebred persian - it fits the standard pretty well - not show quality but enough to say its a purebred. It most likely is from backyard breeding and shouldn't be bred. But to say its not a persian cause you don't have papers, is wrong.
post #9 of 13
Jen's cat looks like a Himmalayn, which is a color of persian. Actually they are a cross between persian and siamese. It's always hard to say a shelter animal is purebred though. Even if they look it. I got 2 of my persians in a shelter. And I also just love the breed (not to breed). I've never met a persian I didn't like! Another misconception about persian's though, is that they all have flat faces. That is something that has been bred into them and the original, or traditional persian didn't actually have a flat face. The CFA website actually has some good basic information on all this at http://www.persian-cats.com/. Also http://www.persian-cats.com/
post #10 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzjazz2u
Jen's cat looks like a Himmalayn, which is a color of persian. Actually they are a cross between persian and siamese. It's always hard to say a shelter animal is purebred though. Even if they look it. I got 2 of my persians in a shelter. And I also just love the breed (not to breed). I've never met a persian I didn't like! Another misconception about persian's though, is that they all have flat faces. That is something that has been bred into them and the original, or traditional persian didn't actually have a flat face. The CFA website actually has some good basic information on all this at http://www.persian-cats.com/. Also http://www.persian-cats.com/
I thought Himalayan was just a pointed Persian, are they actually a cross between a Persian and Siamese? Wouldn't you not be able to guarentee the hair length then since Siamese are shorthaired? Are Persian and Himalayan two completely seperate breeds?

I just found that out about the flatness of the faces. My mom has a Himalayan and she does not have such a flat face as my Eliott. I really don't care what he is though cuz he is SUCH a sweet, cool little guy. And he is neutered of course, he is my old man
post #11 of 13
I believe the siamese was introduced at one point to bring in the pointed gene. Then the breeding continued until they were true for pointed and I'm sure the long-hair and flat-face as well. So the siamese would have to be way back in the pedigree for it to be a purebreed persian.

Of course I'm just recalling this from memory so someone might have better insight.
post #12 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jen
I agree with Solitary:

here is my Eliott whom I adopted from a shelter I worked at. I am pretty confidant in saying he is a purebred Persian but of course I have no paperwork. He was dumped at a carwash as an unneutered severly matted 6 year old. I have a feeling he was used for breeding despite his snaggletooth.
Aww, he is gorgeous! I'm glad he found a nice home with you.
post #13 of 13
Basically a Persian and Himalayan are the same thing NOW Long time ago they did breed the persian and siamese to get the points. The resulting kittens were shorthair because shorthair is a dominate gene. Anytime you breed long to short (if the short doesn't carry the recessive LH gene) you will get short hair cats.

But the crosses would have the LH gene and pointed gene as recessive genes. Thru careful breeding programs, you have the modern day himalayan. They breed true now - the himi looks like the persian in all ways but the fact they are pointed.

BTW the siamese was introduced to a lot of breeds for various reasons (color/points, type, etc.). That doesn't mean you have to continue cross-breeding.
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