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Another color question

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 
Can a cat that is blue (point mom) bred with a seal (bi-color, tecnically a high mitted) produce a chocolate? My male's grandmother is a chocolate lynx bi-color and his great grandfather is a chocolate bi-color, so there are chocolate in there some where. I thought My real light kitten was a blue mitted, since he wasn't a dark as the seal litter mates, but he doesn't look blue at all any more, I don't know if he ever did, I just assumed he was blue since he was so much lighter then the seal litter mates. I had wondered if he could even be chocolate, and some one told me "no, one of the parents have to be chocolate if there are any chocolates in the litter," and neither are. So do I have a washed out, or light seal? Or is it at all possible for this kitten to be chocolate? He is definately a brown tint kitty and not the blue I had originally assumed. So they are right, right? One of the parents have to be chocolate, right?
Thanx!
post #2 of 20
Yes its possible to get a chocolate if the kitten has chocolates in the background. You don't have to have one chocolate parent to get that color - whoever told you that was wrong.

Case in point: friend of mine got a chocolate rex - neither parents were chocolate; but going back EIGHT generations was chocolate on both sides - and that is where the recessive color came from. But to look at a 3 generation pedigree you would say "that's impossible"
post #3 of 20
Thread Starter 
Thanx! I see you were on-line and knew you would know! I thought he looked like he looked like he might be chocolate but then was told a parent had to be, so I was unsure. I thought that's why they have what they call "throw backs" which would mean some thing back in the line that pops up. Thanx, I may have a chocolate mitted ragdoll! yeah!
post #4 of 20
I thought the yawning picture of Chance looked more chocolate!!

Lets see here, Ice is a blue, and Dante' is a seal, so for Ice to produce a chocolate kitten with a seal male, she would have to be a blue with chocolate dilution carrier, as well as Dante' is either a Seal carrying chocolate, or a Seal carrying chocolate and dilute. If he was the latter, a Seal carrying ch + dil, he would have a slight chance of producing lilacs with Ice.
Just as so, he could still be a washed out seal, you can check the nose leather as the kitten grows, since he is mitted, the pawpads won't help to determine.
Do you live close enough to Dorothy, to have her check him out? I bet she would be able to tell you more, whether Chance is in fact a chocolate. If he has a sex change, into a girl, you let me know!!
And last, but not least, Congratulations on your chocolate boy!!
post #5 of 20
Thread Starter 
You know, chance never really looked like he was getting "blue" he is still almost white and you can bearly see mitts on him, but chocolate hadn't crossed my mind since I wasn't looking to get any, just seals and blues. Dorothy lives about ten minutes from me, and at some point I will be bringing these kittens over to see her, Yuki is turning out really nice, if she is breed quality, I will allow the lady getting her to breed her once, so I can have a kitten out of her, Can cats get sex changes like people? I would really like to have this kitten be a little girl if in fact he is choc.
I think the person who told me he couldn't be is just a snot or just doesn't know any thing, like me I had told her it may be and she emailed and said it was impossible, but im looking at the kitten now and it looks choc. to me. She is Dante's breeder, so I thought she would like to know. Dorothy did say she didn't know, but she will know by looking at him. I think i'm going to check his sex again, I looked a long time ago and never again, I had thought at first I had 2 of each and then it was three males and one female, mabey I just thought wrong..
post #6 of 20
Thread Starter 
Nah, still a boy!
post #7 of 20
It just takes time to learn the color and pattern genetics. I didn't learn overnight, but just by experience and research. It won't be long before you understand it all. We are lucky, we only have certain color genetics to learn, unlike other breeds, where I know I would be lost for a long time.
There are several different color charts to help with Ragdolls, and they are all great, but the best to begin to learn with is from RFCI, http://www.rfci.org/genetics/color_chart.php

It is really also great that Dante' is a high mitted, as I have heard from other breeders that breeding a true bicolor to other genotypes of bicolors can really throw too much white. If you choose to keep Dante' as your only stud, you could get a mitted female and throw both bicolor and mitteds, or breed him with another bicolor and get all bicolors, with the exception of breeding a high mitted and True bicolor, which could give you bicolors and mitteds.

I can usually sex kittens as soon as they are born with fairly good accuracy, but I have still made plenty of oops' along the way. Usually, I think a girl is a boy, and after a few weeks I figure out it is a girl. Although, I believe with Kiara's litter, I thought I had 2 girls and 2 boys at first and one of my girls turned into a boy over night.

Some breeders aren't as excited about genetics as I am, so Dante's breeder may just know from experience now what her lines produce and not want to go into the research of color or patterning. While her lines may not produce chocolate, she didn't realize that when put with other lines that carry dilute's, a chocolate can occur.

I won't at all, claim to know everything about Ragdoll genetics, I am still in learning mode, but if you ever have any questions, feel free to ask. If I don't know the answer, then I will try to figure it out, and learn something new myself.

I am planning on focusing on my Seals and Blues right now, but I do hope to go into chocolates and lilacs in the future. I want to take my time, as a lot of the chocolate and lilacs were brought in by outcross, so finding a breeder who has taken the time to work with the lines, and put the outcross further back in the pedigree is important to me.

I hope we get new pictures soon. (Hint, Hint, wink, wink) How is the weather up in Maine? We have almost hit the 100 degree mark down here.
post #8 of 20
Hi guys! I find all that genetics stuff very interesting. I understand chocolate is a recessive? So that breeder would never know unless she crossed to another recessive carrier. In fact, even if one of the parents is a chocolate, unless the other parent is also carrying chocolate, their kittens WON'T be chocolate. What that other person told you was as if it was a dominant trait. Well, I'm probably not making sense. I'm at work and I keep getting interrupted. You'll have to let us know what Dorothy says!

Oh. And photos would be great!
post #9 of 20
Thread Starter 
Dorothy wouldn't tell me yes or no, but said he did look chocolate to her and she thinks he probley is. So as far as i'm concerned he is chocolate and will be registered as so, a chocolate mitted.
post #10 of 20
In order to get a recessive color, etc. both sides (mom and dad) have to be carrying it - even if its more then a few generations back. Like the chocolate in the rex litter - had to go back 8 generations. While the one breeder may think they don't carry the chocolate, somewhere in the lines there is a chocolate that is not apparant.

Recessive can be carried for many generations.
post #11 of 20
I looked at the cattery Dante came from - is it Beech Ridge? They have pedigrees online, and is Odin his sire? If so, there is chocolate there. How about his dam - who is that? (Do I have those terms right, I'm used to horses, LOL!)
post #12 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kluchetta
I looked at the cattery Dante came from - is it Beech Ridge? They have pedigrees online, and is Odin his sire? If so, there is chocolate there. How about his dam - who is that? (Do I have those terms right, I'm used to horses, LOL!)
Mom is Isis. Her mother is a chocolate lynx bi-color, and her father is choc. bi.

Ice's breeder:
http://blueyed-ragdolls.tripod.com
Mom (Dam) is PumPum (seal mitted) Dad (sire) is samput (Blue point) Their peds are not on the site, I have one for her though, and I have made them up for the kittens, send it soon. or get it so I can send it in an email.
post #13 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by celestialrags
Mom is Isis. Her mother is a chocolate lynx bi-color, and her father is choc. bi.

Ice's breeder:
http://blueyed-ragdolls.tripod.com
Mom (Dam) is PumPum (seal mitted) Dad (sire) is samput (Blue point) Their peds are not on the site, I have one for her though, and I have made them up for the kittens, send it soon. or get it so I can send it in an email.
Oh, her parents are pretty! All very interesting!
post #14 of 20
OK, this is WAY cool! I found a database of all the Ragdoll pedigrees, and traced Isis back to Josephine! Is that cool or what?

http://www.pawpeds.com/cgi-bin/RAG
post #15 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by celestialrags
Mom is Isis. Her mother is a chocolate lynx bi-color, and her father is choc. bi.
If both parents on Chocolate, depending on if both parents carried the dilute gene, then Isis is either chocolate or a small percentage of her being lilac.

You can see Boo's pedigree on Pawpeds here. http://www.pawpeds.com/cgi-bin/RAG?a...417/g=4/db=RAG

Unless, there is an outcross, all Ragdolls should be traced back to Josephine.

I have heard cats called Dam and Sire, that is actually how it is on our pedigrees. I have also heard Kings and Queens. I keep it simple and just refer to our Mommies or Daddies.

Kluchetta, you are learning a lot about Raggie genetics. It is a lot fun, and interesting!!
Boo's little boy is a blue bicolor, and we know he is either a high-mitted like his father or a mid-high white, like his Mother, but unless we test bred him, we would never know just by looking at him.
post #16 of 20
Thread Starter 
I meant isis' mom is choc. and HER father (dante's great-grandfather) sorry, isis' dad isn't choc. he is a seal. sorry bout that
post #17 of 20
Thread Starter 
Here is a picture of Chance the one I believe is a chocolate mitted. He is pictured with Ares, one of the seal mitted. They have just turned 7 weeks on thursday. I will update my post in the pregnant cat and kitten forum with pics of them all.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h3...kittens108.jpg
post #18 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by celestialrags
Here is a picture of Chance the one I believe is a chocolate mitted. He is pictured with Ares, one of the seal mitted. They have just turned 7 weeks on thursday. I will update my post in the pregnant cat and kitten forum with pics of them all.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h3...kittens108.jpg
Leslye,

Chance and Ares are both gorgeous!! They have got so big already!!
I can't wait to see the other pictures too!! Ice and Dante' did a great job with these babies!!
post #19 of 20
They are great looking! I can definitely see a difference in the colors. Icey and Dante did do great. I think you've got a good thing going!
post #20 of 20
I'm not sure if you know that that genetic tests are now available for certain Colors? The tests currently available include Chocolate and Sepia.Maybe it's better to have these tests actually conducted instead of continually guessing recessives in the case of Chocolate?

If you would like the link to the test site please let me know and I will post it.I am not currently aware of Chocolates involved in the foundation of the Ragdoll Breed.The color I've heard was supposedly re-established thru recent outcrosses.


CurtG
CurtG
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