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Himalayan kitten born brown

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 
My Flame point himilayan was bred with a blue point himi and she just had a litter of kittens, I always thought all himi's were born white but one of these is brown (not dark but definately brown) this is her 2nd litter and this is the oddest thing I have ever seen. I know she has had no contact with another male as I had the male at my house for breeding and she has never left the house. Any one got any ideas?
post #2 of 26
I'm NOT a breeder... and I know very little about cat genetics, but this is my guess... don't Himalayans have points like Siamese? I know the Burmese breed came out of a Siamese that was born all brown. Perhaps the all gene is still in some lines of the siamese genes.

But don't take my word for it!

I also have a question along the same lines... my Burmese breeder had a Burmese that kittened a white and brown kitten. I never saw adult pictures of it to see how it turned out, but she was mad that the daddy stud wasn't "pure". Assuming the owner of the stud didn't lie to her, how could that have occured? I ALMOST bought this kitten instead of my Sneakers... she also had Scottish Folds.
post #3 of 26
Where did the male come from? I mean, did you know them or know his lines and everything? Maybe he wasn't actually a purebred, or somewhere down the line, a relative of his wasn't purebred and that particular gene is showing up every now and then.
post #4 of 26
Seems that one of the cats is not really pointed. 2 pointed cats have to have all pointed - only time you don't get it is if one parent is not a pointed cat. I was thinking it could be a chocolate involved, but not with a blue and a flame - the chocolate would have to be carried by both parents.

Are you positive that the female had NO other access to any male? Do you own both the mother and father.

As far as the Burmese issue. Wong Mau was the original "burmese" - but its been proven that Wong was really a Tonkinese (cross between burmese and siamese) - and produced both solid browns and more of the modern tonkinese types, and siamese type. The darker more solid colors were bred to produce more of the burmese. But originally there was a more solid brown cat involved.
post #5 of 26
Since this is the 2nd breeding, was the same stud used on the first breeding?

I would assume that one of the cats has an outcross. I am wondering if the darker kitten is a seal mink? It would be born with color, but would still gradually get darker.
Do you have any pictures?
post #6 of 26
In himalayans there is no "seal mink" color - you have the normal seal pt, blue, pt, chocolate pt, lilac pt, flame (red) point, and cream point - and related tortie color pts. Also the lynx points.

There are "solid" color himies (in CFA) but these are from persian/himalayn crosses and are considered to be solid himalayans. I have no clue why cause IMO himalayan should be a "pointed" cat period - the solid colors are really persians that carry the himalayan gene. Why the persian/himies council went that way is beyond me.
post #7 of 26
Yes, I understand there is no mink color, that is why I would assume there is an outcross in one of the cats.
I didn't realize that there was solids in the Himalayan, I did think it was a pointed only breed. I would assume that one who breeds the "solid" himi's would always use a pointed Himalayan when breeding? Is it still a Himalayan if 2 Solid Himi's were bred, or is then considered just a Persian?
Does CFA and TICA both register this breed as Persian/Himalayan?
post #8 of 26
My mentor ran across this as well, She often has dark babies that lighten up as they get older but these babies are only in litters where at least one parent is seal. She has also had a whoops litter recently that resulted in a litter of himalayan bi-colors which very pretty cannot be championed.
post #9 of 26
Thread Starter 
For starters I know she was only with one father because I brought the male to my home and she has never gotten outside. as to whether or not the male lineage is correct I only have the breeders word on that as well as the breeder I bought mine from...she claims that there is no other breed as far back as she knows and the male claims the same. I too didn't know that there were solid colour himi's. He is a pretty little guy and it will be interesting to see if he develops points or not. The owner of the male wonders if somewhere way back there was a cross between a ragdoll and a himi and that this one will be a mink, wouldn't that be interesting, but if this is true it is generations back. I am going to investigate this possibility further and see if they are born mink or white as per most ragdolls. I'll let you know what happens with his colouring. As I have a female ragdoll to breed with I just might keep this little guy.
post #10 of 26
The "solid" himi is a cross between a solid persian and a himalayan. I don't know how TICA would register them - maybe as to what they "look" like - either a solid persian or a himi. CFA I know calls them solid himalayan because the persian people don't want them in their class.

IMO they should be registered as to what they look like and if its a solid himi then it would be labled as a persian carrying himalayan in the papers.

Even if the himalayan male had some other mix in him several generations back, you still should not get a solid color from 2 pointed cats. It would be like getting a solid kitten from siamese - just doesn't happen.

Of course I guess you can have occasional faulty mixed genes as my own kitten Ling did impossible color genetics - born as a solid blue tabby/white with points (with became seal points) and then eventually turned into black/white.

In strong light you can still see the points on her legs and face - darker point color from her eyes down her nose and lighter shading of black on the sides. Very weird and no one really has come up with a logical explanation.
post #11 of 26
I once had a seal point himalayan female, who I took to be bred with a blue point himalayan male, and she produced 6 black kittens. I was in complete shock. After more research deeper into their lines it turned out both cats had a smoked persian in the background several generations back. Since they both carried the gene, that's what we ended up with. The kittens were born black but lightened to a very dark smokey charcoal with the hint of lynx-like points on most of them.
post #12 of 26
Now that is totally weird! The smoke gene overrided all the other genes!

I do know that a friend of mine that bred rex came up with a chocolate rex - and if you looked at the first 3-4 generations, it was "impossible". But if you took it back to the 8th generation - that is where the chocolate gene was hidden - it took 8 generations before a chocolate surfaced (both mom/dad had it that far back).

Genes are really strange sometimes
post #13 of 26
Thread Starter 
I'm learning a lot from this experience and am really glad he has come along, everyone I talked to (other breeders from other sources) can't seem to figure it out, and I trust that both the owner of the male and the breeder I bought mine from are telling me the truth since I told them that I didn't care I was just interested in figuring out the puzzle. It will be an interesting few weeks to see what develops with him and if he changes at all. Thanks for everyones interested and I will keep you up to date with any new developments.
post #14 of 26
How far back can you go on the pedigree of both cats? How many generations - if its only a 3-4 generation pedigree, see what you can do to get a 8-10 generation pedigree from the association they are registered in. You might have to spend a few bucks, but it just may be worth it to clear up any question.
post #15 of 26
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45
Now that is totally weird! The smoke gene overrided all the other genes!

I do know that a friend of mine that bred rex came up with a chocolate rex - and if you looked at the first 3-4 generations, it was "impossible". But if you took it back to the 8th generation - that is where the chocolate gene was hidden - it took 8 generations before a chocolate surfaced (both mom/dad had it that far back).

Genes are really strange sometimes
As Ellen Crockett, a judge I really liked used to say, "Recessives are forever". Love it when chocolate pops up
post #16 of 26
the solid himi thing cracks me up! we used to breed himi's way back when I was younger and had a "solid himi" but at that time they were called HYBRIDS and he wasn't a himi or a persian. Cracks me up that they now threw them in with the himi's since to me they are more persian since they don't have the points.........

Interesting on this little baby though. I peek in every so often to read up on it.
post #17 of 26
I agree Junior - its silly to me to call them "solid" himis. But knowing CFA and how attitudes are, I can understand why the persian/himalayan people put up a fuss.

Some people just don't want "mixed" cats
post #18 of 26
Thread Starter 
Well here we are at ten days old and my little solid himi is getting points, she seems to be getting dark blue points and strangley enough has a light coloured face....I'm confused, She is a doll anyway.
post #19 of 26
Tia, you may have a "magic" kitten too - that's what happened to my Ling - she went thru 3 color changes by the time she was 4 months old. They were totally different from each other.

Still cannot figure out why or how.
post #20 of 26
You should post pics. That must be a gorgeous kitten.
post #21 of 26
This is why I don't breed Pointed's - too much humming over the colours.

Although I have to admit sometimes cameos are hard to "diagnose"

Yes, a picture would be lovely!
post #22 of 26
The kitten is likely a seal point Himmie...seals are born a darker colour than flames and any dilutes. Your flame point male is a dominant {non-dilute} colour of himmy...red point, in other words. {The dilute version of red/flame is cream}. Your blue point female is a dilute colour {blue is the dilute of seal}. Non-dilute, also called dominant, is dominant over dilute. When you crossed these two cats, the kitten inherited a non-dilute gene from the father and a gene for blue/seal, and a dilute gene, from the mother. The non-dilute {dominant} gene was expressed and acted upon the seal/blue to make the kitten seal. This resulted in a seal point kitten.
post #23 of 26
Welcome MTC. Do you breed Persies?
post #24 of 26
Yes, I do. I've been on hiatus, admittedly because ringworm broke out in my cattery and I had to stop breeding while I worked on eradicating it. I am now however expecting two new litters from two beautiful moms, Merrytree Katie and Thia Tory of Merrytree.

I wasn't actually going to post here again today, but the topic caught my eye, I love trying to solve genetic puzzles. I work with CPC's so have had a few Himmy babies before, so I figured I could make an input. The two Himmies I have had were both seal lynx points and they were born a sandy brown.
post #25 of 26
Any pics?

I breed Persians and Exotics. Never had any Pointed's or CPC's though...

Ringworm is a nasty, nasty thing isn't it.
post #26 of 26

This page is a little outdated, since my white female is now spayed and my silver tabby male is now an adult cat. Hm...should update it...

Do you have pics? I'd love to see your kitties too!

Ringworm is possibly the worst experience I have ever been through in my whole life, certainly the worst thing in my recent memory.
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