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Should I seperate?

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
Zoe and Kenzo, my Russian blues, have been mating all week long for the first time in their lives. The mating is very intensive and Zoe is very very much in heat. It happens a few times during the day and even more during night I believe. My question is, she probably conceived on the first two days, isn't she supposed to get out of heat? Should I separate them? Do you guys separate and do you think the fact she's still with him around is what keeps her heated?
post #2 of 28
We keep our "pairs" together until the female appears to be out of heat. This time varies from 2 days to a week, but is usually in the 2 to 4 day range.
Maybe you can seperate them for a day, to see how she reacts. If she's clearly still calling, put her back in.
Are you sure they "connected"? Seems odd she's still showing strong heat signs. On several occasions, I've had to assist the new male in aiming. If your boy is missing, your queen will continue to yowl and carry on in full heat.
post #3 of 28
Thread Starter 
They connected for sure.

She does the screaming thing, then she goes on the floor and flips for like a whole minute very fast... That is why I started counting from the second day they mated cause only on the second day she would do this..

Come to think of it I guess I'm just frustrated with her behavior, she's not herself, she's been extra annoying ;-)

They mated first on Saturday. Sunday was the scream flip thing which makes it 4 days now...
post #4 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twinsen
They connected for sure.

She does the screaming thing, then she goes on the floor and flips for like a whole minute very fast... That is why I started counting from the second day they mated cause only on the second day she would do this..

Come to think of it I guess I'm just frustrated with her behavior, she's not herself, she's been extra annoying ;-)

They mated first on Saturday. Sunday was the scream flip thing which makes it 4 days now...
lol, yes well the flipping is a sure sign! 4 days isn't too bad. She might be out of heat in the next several days. I'd keep them together for now, as long as she's still interested in your male.
post #5 of 28
Most breeders allow the males to breed a few times and then separate. They may keep them together no more then one or two days.

Its time to separate them now - she should be pregnant. They don't necessarily go right out of heat after being bred. Too much breeding and you can have kittens conceived at different times which might complicate the pregnancy. Some kittens could be born too soon or too late.

I took a look at your web page - very nice pedigree on the male. It will be interesting to see what they produce since the male is more American type and the female more Europeon type (in head especially). CFA wants a wider ear set and the female doesn't have that. I'd like to see what the blend of the two will produce
post #6 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45
Most breeders allow the males to breed a few times and then separate. They may keep them together no more then one or two days.

Its time to separate them now - she should be pregnant. They don't necessarily go right out of heat after being bred. Too much breeding and you can have kittens conceived at different times which might complicate the pregnancy. Some kittens could be born too soon or too late.
How long have you been breeding cats?

Neither of your statements have any basis in fact.
post #7 of 28
Thread Starter 
GoldenKitty...

That was a very very very sharp observation you made just now.. Kenzo is indeed the "American" standard and she's the European one and it's obvious by their looks and by their pedigrees... You kept me in shock there for a few minutes cause yes, I can't wait to see what comes out either! LOLOL

They are still mating as I write this message, I would like to hear more opinions since I see that there are some disagreements coming.

My mentor told me that she used to keep pairs for 10 days and for as long as they like...

But I would like to point out another "Issue" with this over mating thing.. Zoe is losing weight and she's a mess from all the mating.. I'm not too worried cause she's going to be getting a lot of health food and a lot of personal care (Since she's my only Queen !!!)...

Question is, as I point it out, is the heat lasting because of him been present, or it doesn't matter?

Thanks for your help... I'm following this thread closely since it's important to me to learn from you guys..

post #8 of 28
I have bred rexes for about 10 yrs - I know for a fact that the breeders I worked with do not let the female and male together for more then a day or two - and every cat has gotten pregnant. Why keep them together for a week if they've bred several times?

IMO its not necessary if you know they connected several times. If the cats are novices, I can see keeping them together longer, but if both have bred, then separate them.
post #9 of 28
I know breeders who do keep them together and those who don't. I think it is more of an individual preference in most cases, but if your girl is tired and looking poorly, then I would go ahead and remove her from the stud's access. She may continue to call strongly for a day or two, but you should begin to notice a steady decrease in urgency as the days go by if she is pregnant. And, of course, if she isn't pregnant, then she will come back into estrus soon enough.

What seems to work best for me is to put my queen in with my stud, observe the breeding and then remove her. My stud is gentle with her - but she is not so gentle with him and nearly got him in the eye once, so I just feel that for my stud's safety she is better removed after a successful breeding. I normally do this twice to three times per day.

While I think that having the stud and queen together does seem to aid in bringing on a cycle, I don't think it actually prolongs one if they have already bred successfully several times. At least that is how it is here with my own cats. Usually, after the second day of monitored breeding, Lexus begins to refuse Tonka's advances. Then, about 24 hours later, she again strongly encourages his advances, but I notice a decrease in the urgency of her behavior from that point onwards and even though she seems willing, she will not let him mount her. She falls over on her side and swipes at him.
post #10 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Bengals
Neither of your statements have any basis in fact.
Actually, there is a lot of basis in what GoldenKitty45 says regarding breeding over a longer period of time. If you frequent the Pregnant Cats and Kitten Care Forum here at TCS at all, this is evident in more than a few of the threads recently. We already know that cats are induced ovulators - the act of breeding itself causes the ovum to be released ... and we also know that females can conceive by different males. It is not at all unusual in the domestic population to see what can only be a genetic impossibility unless it is true that different males can sire kittens in the same litter. So I can think of no logical reason not to believe they cannot conceive at different times.
post #11 of 28
I still haven't came to an opinon on queens being able to conceive from 2 different males, or at different times, also called superfetation. I haven't experienced it. There was a thread on the Fanciers List several months ago, where Dr. Susan Little, does say she does not believe in superfetation. Many had different opinions, with good basis for why they believed in or against.
I would like to see the evidence based on DNA results from 2 different fathers.
post #12 of 28
Thread Starter 
She is still heated this morning. And she's still letting him mount her, but just a few minuted ago I had to seperate them because they were fighting.

One must take into consideration that regardless of the problems of his safty and her well been, she is also pregannt now which means I can't have her fighting and jumping around like that.

I decided that tomorrow morning, unless things change, will be the last day they spend together and then she moves in with my parents and he stays here with me until it's over.
post #13 of 28
FamilyRags.

Simple color genetics will tell you if a litter has 2 different fathers. For example:

Stray cat - not a planned breeding - cat mates with more then one male.
mother is a solid black
one father is a solid black
one father is a red tabby

resulting litter - 4 kittens - 3 black (one female, 2 males) and 1 tortoisehell female.

Since the color has to be given from the X chromosone, then its quite obvious that the red is the father of the tortie and the black is the father of the rest.
post #14 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45
FamilyRags.

Simple color genetics will tell you if a litter has 2 different fathers. For example:

Stray cat - not a planned breeding - cat mates with more then one male.
mother is a solid black
one father is a solid black
one father is a red tabby

resulting litter - 4 kittens - 3 black (one female, 2 males) and 1 tortoisehell female.

Since the color has to be given from the X chromosone, then its quite obvious that the red is the father of the tortie and the black is the father of the rest.
I agree, that would be another way to tell. Have you had an experience with this before? I find it very interesting, and I have enjoyed the different opinions surrounding the subject and why or why not people did or did not believe it could happen. I would like to hear your experiences.

I have always left my cats together, for 3 days, and count from the second day of breeding. I have done that, to one, ensure that we don't have an age different in gestation, and two, we like being accurate on our expected due dates. I like being a little too prepared sometimes.
post #15 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45
I took a look at your web page - very nice pedigree on the male. It will be interesting to see what they produce since the male is more American type and the female more Europeon type (in head especially). CFA wants a wider ear set and the female doesn't have that. I'd like to see what the blend of the two will produce
Hello GOldenKitty45 - what cats are you breeding? You are more knowledgeable than most about the varying standards for RBs around the world.

I am the breeder of Twinsens RBs. They are both Brightlight kittens from different sets of parents. :o) And I am VERY PROUD OF THEM indeed.

The standards for RBs vary from continent to continent and even from country to country. Which of course, can be VERY frustrating for an RB breeder. I have been breeding RBs for 6 years now and have the Brightlight Cattery, based in Israel. I had a very precise breeding plan which has finally reached fruition in the mating that has just taken place with Twinsen's kittens.

My foundation queens are from the Ukraine and Russia, from WCF catteries. Their lines were from Eastern European countries and have World Champions and European Champions amongst them. My foundation tom was from Germany, whose father was best FIFe RB and 8th best all breed cat in Germany in 2002, so he is from the top Western European FIFe lines. His son, Brightlight Bravissimo Ben Tzion was BEST OF BEST at a show in 2005, meaning he was considered to be the best cat at the show. I then got a CFA/TICA registered tom from top CFA RB lines, as you pointed out. Having had great success at shows with my RBs I decided I wanted to blend the lines from the three main continents and three main organisations - WCF and FIFe in Europe and CFA and TICA in North America. I finally achieved my goal and absolutely adore the "look" of the kittens that have combined the best of the three regions. The boy whose pedigree you admired is the culmination of this breeding program.

The next step will be Zoe and Kenzo's kittens. So I too am very interested to see how Zoe and Kenzo's kittens turn out since Zoe is from my European lines only and Kenzo is from the combination of my European lines via the mother and the CFA lines from the father. I can hardly wait. LOLOLOLOL

And further to the discussion, I have always left my females as long as they like with the male and have never had any problem. Three times I have had litters of 7, all kittens survived and are healthy, happy cats now. One of my queens that went to a breeder in the USA has had litters of 7, 8, 9 and last month 13 kittens. The 13 were delivered normally.

My litters have all been born normally with no need for veterinary intervention.

I figure that we orchestrate our kitties lives so much - the least we can do is let them have a little bit of fun. They deserve it :o)

Best wishes to you all,

Rena Kalina
Brightlight Cattery
www.geocities.com/brightlightrusblu
http://photos.yahoo.com/renakalina
post #16 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by gayef
Actually, there is a lot of basis in what GoldenKitty45 says regarding breeding over a longer period of time. If you frequent the Pregnant Cats and Kitten Care Forum here at TCS at all, this is evident in more than a few of the threads recently. We already know that cats are induced ovulators - the act of breeding itself causes the ovum to be released ... and we also know that females can conceive by different males. It is not at all unusual in the domestic population to see what can only be a genetic impossibility unless it is true that different males can sire kittens in the same litter. So I can think of no logical reason not to believe they cannot conceive at different times.
I respectfully disagee. We are taking about breed cats here, in controlled environments, being allowed to mate with one stud for a specified period of time. In nine years of breeding bengals, not once have I experienced a problem with leaving a male and female together for a week, with multiple matings on different days.
There have been no kittens born too soon or too late.
Maybe GoldenKitty45 can clarify what she meant by that.

I think it's fine that breeders have different methods, but to say that most breeders only allow a 1 to 2 day mating period is just incorrect.
post #17 of 28
I wonder how long it can take before a second ovulation occurs, maybe a week or more?

I really do think celestialrags just experienced this. The first kitten came with very little hair on the body, appeared heavily premature. Then the rest of the litter came full-size and healthy.

I don't think leaving them together for less than a week would be a problem, and most likely the female is out of heat by then anyway. But any longer I would worry about a second ovulation.
post #18 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by FamilytimeRags
I agree, that would be another way to tell. Have you had an experience with this before? I find it very interesting, and I have enjoyed the different opinions surrounding the subject and why or why not people did or did not believe it could happen. I would like to hear your experiences.
I don't see why not. If she ovulates and multiple males mate her, any of those males sperm have a chance of fertilizing the egg.

In the same sense a woman who has fraternal twins has released 2 eggs and if she was with multiple partners wouldn't it be just as possible that each baby could have a different dad? Unlikely as it is, as humans we tend to stay with one person at any one time, but with a cat it does not matter.
post #19 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by FamilytimeRags
I would like to see the evidence based on DNA results from 2 different fathers.
There was an article in the British papers maybe a year or two ago where they did dna tests on cats from the city and cats from the countryside to find out which were more promiscous! lol!

I cant remember the results exactly but i know one set had three fathers per litter and the other five fathers on average.
post #20 of 28
I appreciate everyone's opinion. I find this topic very interesting.

This is the statement that I found interesting by a very well known vet. I am quoting word for word.
....We know a lot about feline reproductive physiology since
domestic cats are used as models to study ways to assist reproduction
in endangered feline species. There is a wealth of up to date
information on feline reproductive physiology in journals like
Biology of Reproduction and Theriogenology.

I can assure you that queens ovulate only once during a cycle, and
all eggs are fertilized within about 24 hours. It makes no sense for
a queen to have a litter where the kittens are different gestational
ages - it would lead to even higher kitten mortality rates than cats
already experience......

Because the above statement is in a members list, I have no way of linking to it. I hope that is alright to do, if anyone has any questions, about the statement, the vet, or the list it was on, please feel free to PM me. As I said, since I had never experienced it, it is something very interesting to me. I have enjoyed the responses we have had.
post #21 of 28
Thread Starter 
Zoe is now officially out of her heat... she is back to her old "crazy cat who won't stop trying to catch flying bugs jumping to the lamps and hitting kenzo all the time" self.

And I guess we can start counting... OH MY GOD I'M SO EXCITED!
post #22 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twinsen

And I guess we can start counting... OH MY GOD I'M SO EXCITED!
Hello Twinsen -

prepare yourself. The next 60 to 65 or so days will be the longest days of your life. LOLOLOLOLOL

I am so excited too. Can't wait to see my grandbabies

Mommy of Zoe and Kenzo
Rena Kalina
Brightlight Cattery
www.geocities.com/brightlightrusblu
http://photos.yahoo.com/renakalina
post #23 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolarityBengals
I wonder how long it can take before a second ovulation occurs, maybe a week or more?

I really do think celestialrags just experienced this. The first kitten came with very little hair on the body, appeared heavily premature. Then the rest of the litter came full-size and healthy.

I don't think leaving them together for less than a week would be a problem, and most likely the female is out of heat by then anyway. But any longer I would worry about a second ovulation.
I agree, I have a male that doesn't spray and they were not seperated. I feel because of this my queen expirienced two different ovalations resulting in the premeture kitten.
I think it is done differently by breeders, but for now on I think I will allow supervised matings in a breeding cage for a couple days up to mabey 5 or some thing. If it doesn't take, then I will just try again next cycle, kitens a month later then planned is less stressful then this premeture kitten expirience Ice and I just expirienced.

This is a link to the little preme, he never took a breath so he is NOT alive in the picture, I don't want any one to see it that doesn't want to, so I will put the link. The picture isn't very clear and you can't see how transparent it was, but you can see how tiny she was. weight: 37.4? grams (it was under 40, the others were 81.7-102 grams or so. so it was about half the size of the rest.
[img=http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/8287/danteandnacho0144gc.th.jpg]

This is the next born:
[img=http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/8673/danteandnacho0168vh.th.jpg]
post #24 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by FamilytimeRags
I appreciate everyone's opinion. I find this topic very interesting.
Me too!

Quote:
This is the statement that I found interesting by a very well known vet ...

"....We know a lot about feline reproductive physiology since
domestic cats are used as models to study ways to assist reproduction
in endangered feline species. There is a wealth of up to date
information on feline reproductive physiology in journals like
Biology of Reproduction and Theriogenology.

I can assure you that queens ovulate only once during a cycle, and
all eggs are fertilized within about 24 hours. It makes no sense for
a queen to have a litter where the kittens are different gestational
ages - it would lead to even higher kitten mortality rates than cats
already experience......"
Then how does one explain the fact of superfetation in cats? It does happen and is documented in cats. I have a lot of articles regarding Feline Reproduction and Theriogenology (my current vet is a theriogenologist) but most of them are extremely clinical. This one is not ~as~ clinical - there is a paragraph under the graph chart of The Feline Estrus Cycle that spells it out pretty clearly.

http://www.felinevetclinic.com/articles/repro.pdf

Quote:
I have enjoyed the responses we have had.
As have I ... it is my hope to continue having these sorts of discussions here in this Forum. We all possess valuable knowledge and can share that information with the other breeders here - I sincerely hope we all can continue to contribute in this way.

I look forward to more in this discussion.
post #25 of 28
In controlled breedings you should not have 2 different fathers - that would only happen in random breedings of outside cats (strays).

My question to those that keep the pair together and let them mate a long time (over a period of days) WHY? If you witness several successful breedings, then why in the world would you want them to continue mating?

You might not have had it happen in the past (with premature kittens) but it could happen in the future - why take the chance?

I'd be willing to bet that if the pair were allowed free run of the entire house and not caged together for a week, she would let him breed a few times and be done with it. By confining them to a cage, all they do is mate. IMO its not necessary to let them continue breeding after 2-3 days at the most.
post #26 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45
In controlled breedings you should not have 2 different fathers - that would only happen in random breedings of outside cats (strays).

My question to those that keep the pair together and let them mate a long time (over a period of days) WHY? If you witness several successful breedings, then why in the world would you want them to continue mating?

You might not have had it happen in the past (with premature kittens) but it could happen in the future - why take the chance?

I'd be willing to bet that if the pair were allowed free run of the entire house and not caged together for a week, she would let him breed a few times and be done with it. By confining them to a cage, all they do is mate. IMO its not necessary to let them continue breeding after 2-3 days at the most.
I can see your point if a cage were used. Do breeders actually cage their cats for mating? That's unacceptable to me.
Our studs are housed in their own 180 sq foot rooms. When we place the female in with the stud, she has ample room and opportunity to get away from him if she needs to. Maybe this is why the week together period works for us and doesn't cause problems.
post #27 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45
In controlled breedings you should not have 2 different fathers - that would only happen in random breedings of outside cats (strays).

My question to those that keep the pair together and let them mate a long time (over a period of days) WHY? If you witness several successful breedings, then why in the world would you want them to continue mating?

You might not have had it happen in the past (with premature kittens) but it could happen in the future - why take the chance?

I'd be willing to bet that if the pair were allowed free run of the entire house and not caged together for a week, she would let him breed a few times and be done with it. By confining them to a cage, all they do is mate. IMO its not necessary to let them continue breeding after 2-3 days at the most.
My cats are free to roam in the entire house and I never really seen them mate. But, they were allowed to mate for as long as they wanted to and I had the problem with the premeture kitten, wether it was due to them not being seperated sooner, or not, I don't know. I don't think you are directing your question to me, just breeders in general, but I didn't leave them in a cage for a week to breed, they are loose and just did their thing. In the past, Ice went to a stud, and she was kept there with the male until she came out of heat, so it was right around for a week she was there and there wasnt any problems then. Sucessful mating isn't nec. sucessful breeding, If i'm going to put my cat through the hastle of having a male all over, i'm going to let them be for a few days and BE sure the mating took. rather then have them be together for 2 days and then shortly later come into heat again and haveto breed again, i'm just going to let them breed for a little longer and have a better chance. The next time I do breed they will be doing it in a cage and then be seperated after a couple days, just incase being free to breed caused the problem with the premeture kitten.
post #28 of 28
Yes most breeders with males will have the pair in a very large cage - not free roaming. Each male has a separate pen (some large like a room, some a very large cage. That way you can put a female with one male and another with a different male and keep them from breeding to a different cat.

If you have witnessed several successful breedings (over 2-3 days) then it really is not necessary to continue to let them mate over and over.

My question was in general to the breeders who feel they must keep the pair together until she is out of heat.
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