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Help! More Drama!

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 
So its been almost a week since the accident and the kitten has completely recovered from that but both kittens have an upper respitory infection(viral) due to cold or whatever(the vet said probably due to cold). Their eyes are gunky and close shut because I can't be home all day to constantly clean them. I have been cleaning their eyes and nose and mouth every night when I get home, even if its at like 330am and I have to be up at 6. The vet said that aslong as I cleaned them, that it would go away and so far it hasn't gotten any better. I tried to make a warmer nest but Yen and the kittens won't stay where its warm..Any suggestions...(I even got a little heating pack from the vet to help). And one more thing...I'm pretty sure the kittens have lost weight....this last week I haven't been home very much so I have been able to see how often they're nursing if at all.Yen seems very detatched from the kittens and she never used to be. I had to sleep with the kittens last night because she left them so I cuddled them to keep them warm...Is it because they are getting older (4 1/2 weeks)? I just need some over all advice!
post #2 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by IloveSiamese
So its been almost a week since the accident and the kitten has completely recovered from that but both kittens have an upper respitory infection(viral) due to cold or whatever(the vet said probably due to cold). Their eyes are gunky and close shut because I can't be home all day to constantly clean them. I have been cleaning their eyes and nose and mouth every night when I get home, even if its at like 330am and I have to be up at 6. The vet said that aslong as I cleaned them, that it would go away and so far it hasn't gotten any better. I tried to make a warmer nest but Yen and the kittens won't stay where its warm..Any suggestions...(I even got a little heating pack from the vet to help). And one more thing...I'm pretty sure the kittens have lost weight....this last week I haven't been home very much so I have been able to see how often they're nursing if at all.Yen seems very detatched from the kittens and she never used to be. I had to sleep with the kittens last night because she left them so I cuddled them to keep them warm...Is it because they are getting older (4 1/2 weeks)? I just need some over all advice!
Have you and your son recovered from the accident last week?
I Hope they are doing ok. If mom isn't staying as much, mabey you could try cofining her to a bathroom or large dog create (many have sugested this so I am going to cage me cat with her kittens then I know they are safe) if not
Have you tried putting more blankets to make the spot she moves them to warmer? Or does she just move again is you do any thing to her spot?

I have always used tea bags on eyes, use a little hot watter and soak the bag for a while then dip a cotton ball it the tea water, make sure it is cooled down and hold it on the eyes for a while. It might help.
You should get scales to weigh them and see the weight. At 41/2 weeks they may be getting old enough that mom can be away more and they are also old enough to introduce soild foods. i'm not sure of all the links that people put up, so i'm sure some one who can help you more will post more info for you
post #3 of 16
Thread Starter 
we did recover and thankfully Yuki just has a cold and her leg is all better. I'm really trying with their eyes and such, but it doesn't seem to help.

I was thinking that they could go longer with out nursing but I've been home for over 4 hours and they haven't nursed once. They were sitting on my shoulder cuz mom didn't want anything to do with them and still doesn't.

I have tried to keep them confined but we only have one bathroom and my son has the flu and my dog needs the dog crate during the day.

I have a carrier but she hates it and yen seems to like the colder areas and moves the kittens if its to her disliking. I'm really starting to get worried.
post #4 of 16
start trying to feed them some food. Alittle wet food mixed with KRM warm it a little so they will smell it (if they have URI it may be harder for them to smell.) Get it on your finger and let them lick it or what ever, if you don't think they are eating enough you should get them to try eating solid food on their own.
Have you tried tea bags for their eyes? it might take a day or so if they are pretty goopy so keep trying that unless a vet or some one else says some thing will be better. Good luck but I bet you wont need it, once they start eating the wet kitten food they will be little pudgers before long.
post #5 of 16
When the kittens I had here began to show signs of that, the rescue group gave me antibiotics for them immediately. If it's getting that bad, that's probably what you need. Either take them to the vet, or maybe they'll give you some without you having to go in. Either way, especially if you're not home to keep on top of it, the antibiotics, with some eye salve (I was to give both 2x a day) should knock it right out of them.

It's not a good idea with kittens that young to let those things go too long. It can affect their eyesight, I was told.
post #6 of 16
I also think it sounds like they need a antibiotic. If there nose is stuffed up they won't feel like eating much. Its important for them to eat! If the moms not nursing them then at this age you need to feed them. maybe they aren't nursing as much because of the cold they have. Kittens this age can go down hill really quick. Another trip to the vets as soon as possible.
post #7 of 16
Thread Starter 
I did take them to the vet and the vet said it was a virus and that there are no antibiotics that will cure it, that I just have to keep cleaning the eyes and nose until it clears up. He said to just use warm water and gauze. I'm going to try to the tea bag thing today for the eyes. I always can get their noses really clean with just the warm water. They've stopped sneezing now.

What is Kmr (or what ever order the letter go) and where do I get it? (i'll do this today!) and does it matter what kind of wet food?
post #8 of 16
kmr stands for kitten milk replacement. It is what you would give to an orphaned kitten, or a kitten who wasn't getting enough milk from it's mother. From what you've written I'm not sure if the mom is nursing them or not. If she is, and they are getting enough to eat (not crying constantly for food) then you don't need it.

However, if you do, you can get it at any decent pet store, even walmart has it. It comes in cans, or in powdered form to mix up yourself with warm water. You'd also need a kitten bottle to feed them with.

I'm a litte skeptical about the no antibiotic thing. If you can afford it, perhaps you can get a second opinion? There is even a salve that will work well too, but I forgot what it was called. I will get the name from the rescue group and let you know. The antibiotics they gave me for the mom and kittens was a pink liquid called amoxil 50 mg, about 1/4 of a dropper 2x a day for the kittens, a whole dropper 2x a day for the Mom. Because if one has it, they all do, even if its not showing that strongly yet.

It's my understanding (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) but I thought that if an eye/upper respiratory infection like this goes on too long, it can hurt their eyesight. Then again, I can be a bit of an alarmist

But perhaps even call the spca or a local rescue group and ask their opinion, because the antibiotics cleared it up in no time. And vets, like doctors do on occasion make mistakes. I've always thought it's better to be safe than sorry, and a second opinion couldn't hurt.
post #9 of 16
I'm not sure about it hurting their eyesight if it goes on for too long, but it will definately affect them in other ways if it goes on too long, it can even be fatal for young kittens I think.
I have used the pink antibiotic amoxil and also clavamox for URI (liquid and pill) You could check into these antibiotics, or get a second opinion as some one said.
post #10 of 16
The problem with administering antibiotics is that they are totally ineffective for treating a virus unless that virus allows a secondary bacterial infection to develop. From what ILoveSiamese has posted, the vet has confirmed that this is viral and doesn't feel a bacterial infection is present. So treating with antibiotics at this time is premature.

The only thing to be done here is to let it run it's course and allow the kittens to develop their own immunity to it. It will make them stronger in the long run if they can do it on their own.

~IF~ this virus develops into a bacterial infection, then yes, either Amoxi or (my choice) Baytril is the way to go.
post #11 of 16
Thread Starter 
Along with what my vet has said, I've read the sticky's and the stuff coming from their eyes and nose looks like gel and isn't colored. I just have to keep up with the cleaning and if it does turn green or something like that then I would most definately get a second opinion.
post #12 of 16
Amoxy was what I was given for my guys.

I disagree about letting it run its course, as I posted elsewhere too. If for no other reason than kittens can't maintain the stress to their bodies and the lack of nutrients and water as well as an adult cat can, and need to be able to get back to their job, which is to eat, grow, play and be happy, not spend most of the time when they are developing the fastest in trying to fend off infections and colds, and being force fed, etc. Their biggest problem should be what toy to play with, what finger to bite, and yes, this is my opinion, and I know that others feel differently, but when it comes to the babies, I personally prefer an offensive approach.

An older cat who can withstand more body stress would be a different story, again in my opinion.

As there are good and not so good doctors, vets are people and it can be the same. I don't think a second opinion would be out of order, even if it's done over the phone, or perhaps with the spca animal hospital if there is one in your area.

I had also suggested that perhaps someone from an animal welfare or rescue group might be able to offer better advice since they deal with this more than most, or might even be able to actually offer some hands-on, in-person help and advice.
post #13 of 16
I would think calling the original vet, and just letting him know that the symptoms are still there, and see if he thinks using an antibiotic then would be in order, if so, you should just be able to pick up meds from him, without another visit, unless other symptoms are present since the last visit.
If the are having trouble breathing out of their nose, at 4 weeks old, my vet says you can use pediatric nose drops, one drop in each nostril. Also, the most affective IMO, is steaming up the shower and holding the kitten while he/she breathes it in, however if the kitten is showing any signs of dehydration, that wouldn't be best.
Also, my vet says that you can use pedialyte diluted 50/50 with water, and syringe feed the kittens to keep them hydrated.
For the eyes, you can use a broad spectrum antibiotic cream that you can get over the counter called Terramycin.
Some kittens take to eating solids very quickly, and some take a little longer and require more patience and care. They will eventually get the hang of it. We use Hills A/D to begin solids we put warm water to make it into a paste, and put a vitamin supplement in, but if they are stubborn, we will go to baby foods. Will the Mom eat the solid mush, if so, place the food on a paper plate, and place all the kitten around Mom, so they can watch her eat.
A gram scale would be good to keep an eye on their weight, if they start losing, you may need to force feed for a bit until they get the hang of it themselves. A syringe, or a small rubber tipped baby spoon works very well in feeding. Typically after a few good bites over 2 or 3 days, and they will begin going to the food on their own.
I hope the babies are feeling better soon. Keep a close eye, and if it seems to be getting worse, call the vet. Good luck, and keep us posted.
post #14 of 16
I'm sorry, but I have to say this, and then I will leave this thread. But there are some things I don't understand.

1. Why is it so difficult to think that a vet could possibly be wrong. Why is getting a 2nd opinion from another vet or someone from a place like an animal welfare or rescue who has seen this so many times and can actually LOOK at the kittens instead of second guessing over the internet such a big deal? You woudln't think twice about a second opinion for a human. I posted a link to animal welfare groups in the other thead, and I think there's one here in the forum too.

2. Why would someone want to take a 4 1/2 week old baby kitten and make their earliest memories of the world and of humans having stuff stuck up it's nose, into it's eyes, down it's throat, up it's butt, being force fed food, water, and having that done 2, 3, 4 times a day when there's a perfectly healthy mom with milk that has shown she will most likely take the job back over if confined wiht them and left to do so. That's no way to introduce the babies to the world if it can be avoided. Think of how it will affect their stress levels and view of the world as they grow.

3. And why would one want to feed everything imaginable to kittens to force them to eat, when again, there's a mother who has milk with ANTIBODIES that you can't get from any other food for any price, and that will keep them healthier now and throughout their lives? You should only do that if there is no other way, but if at all possible, kittens should have mother's milk for as long as possible, even if it's only part of their diet.

And if you research it, you will find that kittens who are orphaned, or not cared for by the mother grow up to be frightened and skittish cats. Why would one risk that if they didn't have to?

If you remember, I said in one of my posts that my kittens had the eye gunk and cough. I was given antibiotic salve, and amoxy, which I gave them 2x a day, and it took about 2 seconds per kitten, and off they went to be kittens. Why put them through all the other stuff if there's a way to avoid it? What benefit could it have?

Instead of learning that people are loving, they're going to learn people make them uncomfortable and shove things in all their orifices.

All I'm suggesting is to get some sort of educated 2nd opinion that can actually see the kittens in person. If it agrees with the 1st, then you have your answer and continue what you are doing. But if it doens't, then take care of the respiratory problems as quickly and with the least pain and intrusion as possible,and then try to get mom to take back her job before they are too old to benefit from what she can give them.

Then you can go back to your job; Putting down food 2 or 3 times a day, loving them, kissing and hugging them, buying them toys, and enjoying them, and only stepping in to do the "mom" and yuccky stuff when absolutely necessary. I like to think of myself as being their doting Grandma and letting Mom do all the dirty work.

Please at least about what I'm trying to say before making the decision, and before they are too old to get any of the benefits from their Mom that they really need so much. And before you end up realizing you've missed out on enjoying the best part of their kittenhood.

I hope that whatever decisions you do make, they do turn out for the best.
post #15 of 16
Thread Starter 
I truely do appreciate your opinion and I would not ask people on here if I did not want to hear all opinions, so thank you for your honesty.

This being said, I don't feel that using antibiotics every time somegets sick or shows signs of a cold is very good idea. I wouldn't want them to become immune and then if they needed it, it wouldn't work. This happened to my son and he had to get surgery. I am very careful now about using medicine unless absolulty necessary and I normally tend to trust what a doctor says because I didn't go to school for however many years to know what they know.

I don't think that my handling them 3 times aday will ruin their kittenhood and I only interupped mom and kittys when I felt something was going off. I'm letting her take over again, but I do give them one feeding a day to ensure they don't become dehydrated.
post #16 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charmed654321

1. Why is it so difficult to think that a vet could possibly be wrong. Why is getting a 2nd opinion from another vet or someone from a place like an animal welfare or rescue who has seen this so many times and can actually LOOK at the kittens instead of second guessing over the internet such a big deal? You woudln't think twice about a second opinion for a human. I posted a link to animal welfare groups in the other thead, and I think there's one here in the forum too.
It isn't at all difficult to think that a vet could possibly be wrong. Nor is getting a second opinion, when it is called for, a bad thing. I don't think anyone here suggested otherwise.

Quote:
2. Why would someone want to take a 4 1/2 week old baby kitten and make their earliest memories of the world and of humans having stuff stuck up it's nose, into it's eyes, down it's throat, up it's butt, being force fed food, water, and having that done 2, 3, 4 times a day when there's a perfectly healthy mom with milk that has shown she will most likely take the job back over if confined wiht them and left to do so. That's no way to introduce the babies to the world if it can be avoided. Think of how it will affect their stress levels and view of the world as they grow.
Kittens who are handled from birth are significantly better socialized than kittens not handled much, if at all. Even if the experience is to administer meds, the more they are handled by humans, the more trusting of humans they will be as adults.

At 4 and a half weeks old, these kittens are not too young to be introduced to solid but gushy foods. At this point, the queen has been providing 100% of their nutrition for nearly two months and she is tired, her resources are low, she is vulnerable to attack from both viral and bacterial loads ... there are MANY reasons not to be so dependent upon the queen for feeding her kittens at this age. Her stress levels are already on high alert as the kittens will begin to venture around and out of the nest - she will not sleep, she will not eat, she will become extremely anxious and nervous. Her milk production will suffer. It is TIME to begin weaning them now.

Quote:
3. And why would one want to feed everything imaginable to kittens to force them to eat, when again, there's a mother who has milk with ANTIBODIES that you can't get from any other food for any price, and that will keep them healthier now and throughout their lives? You should only do that if there is no other way, but if at all possible, kittens should have mother's milk for as long as possible, even if it's only part of their diet.
While you are correct about the immunity which only mother's milk can provide, the fact is that the immunity the kittens receive from it decreases as the weeks go on. By the 4th week, they are still receiving some protection, but not as much as one would think. That is why we begin to vaccinate kittens at or around the age of 6 weeks ... because by that time, the immunity they are getting from the queen has dwindled to nearly nothing. Most of the time, a queen will continue nurse the kittens, but for shorter durations after they have begun to explore eating on their own. So it isn't like they won't be nursing at all, it will simply be for shorter durations.

Quote:
And if you research it, you will find that kittens who are orphaned, or not cared for by the mother grow up to be frightened and skittish cats. Why would one risk that if they didn't have to?
This may be true, but kittens who are handled frequently from birth by humans are normally NOT frightened and skittish at all.

Quote:
If you remember, I said in one of my posts that my kittens had the eye gunk and cough. I was given antibiotic salve, and amoxy, which I gave them 2x a day, and it took about 2 seconds per kitten, and off they went to be kittens. Why put them through all the other stuff if there's a way to avoid it? What benefit could it have?
Perhaps your vet chooses to treat differently, but I have to agree with what ILoveSiamese said about overusing antibiotics. In some cases, they can be used prophylactically with great success, but in others, they only serve to allow a developing immune system to take a rest instead of doing what it is supposed to do and that is kick right into high gear and fight! I am highly concerned with the level of resistance cats are experiencing to the common broad-spectrum antibiotics and if it isn't indicated medically, then I do not administer them.

Quote:
All I'm suggesting is to get some sort of educated 2nd opinion that can actually see the kittens in person. If it agrees with the 1st, then you have your answer and continue what you are doing. But if it doens't, then take care of the respiratory problems as quickly and with the least pain and intrusion as possible,and then try to get mom to take back her job before they are too old to benefit from what she can give them.
ILoveSiamese mentioned that these kittens had a clear "gel" discharge from their eyes. This simply does not indicate a bacterial infection. It is more indicative of allergies or a viral load, neither of which can be helped by antibiotics until and unless a secondary bacterial infection develops. If ILoveSiamese had commented about a thick, pus-like yellow-ish/green discharge, then YES - my first suggestion would be absolutely get them some antibiotics.

Taking 4 and a half week old kittens into a vet's office when it isn't absolutely necessary is not only the wrong thing to do, it is being very foolish and taking a huge risk with their health! They are exposed to other animals sick with who knows what and the chances of them contracting ringworm, fleas, internal parasites all increase dramatically during a vet visit.

If and when ILoveSiamese determines that a vet visit must be had, then I would suggest asking if the vet would make a house call. At least that way, she wouldn't have to be lugging them around in the car to the clinic and putting them at an even higher risk.
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