Urine Crystals -- Is prescription diet needed?

blueyedgirl5946 · Mar 24, 2006

I have two male cats, one 7 and one 10 yrs old. They both have had problems with crystals. They eat W/D prescription food and are doing quite well. I say, if you give money to a vet, then follow their advice.

pandybear · Mar 24, 2006

bonnie has crystals too, she has had them twice and both times i took her to the vet she was put on antbiotics and i was told to buy some type of food that was just too expensive....

is there any type of diet i can put her on myself that will combat the problem? foods she shouldn't eat etc.

thanks!

felicia

dr. doolittle · Mar 24, 2006

If your cat formed crystals on Innova and Chicken soup then he should stay on the Rx diet for the rest of his life. These are two good quality foods, but some cats (cats with FLUTD) just cannot tolerate anything other that Rx diets. They are just very sensitive to pH changes.
Hills is not the only company out there. You should look at VMD/Royal Canin. I like this company better- they preserve their diets naturally and use less by-product.

zissou'smom · Mar 25, 2006

I wouldn't just plain disagree with your vet. I like the food Zissou eats, but I've only had one cat and if someone with more experience told me to change it, I would try it out. Maybe it's a miracle cure!

Then again, human doctors often (not always) are pretty terrible human nutritionists. That isn't what their degree is in. Maybe try a cat-only vet and bring lots of questions, see what they say.

The only experience I've ever had with prescription food was a mixed bag. Zissou was sick, and the vet gave her Purina Prescription for upset tummies. It got her eating a little again, but she didn't like it very much and only ate maybe one of the eight packets before going on a hunger strike for her old food. So I'd say it was worth the 2.50, since she hadn't eaten in about four days at that point.

jen · Mar 26, 2006

I actually have a similar problem, if no one minds of I butt in here...

I just took my cat Bowie to the vet bc she has been peeing all over the house and is very sensitive in her lower stomach area. Vet couldn't get any bladder out but suspected a kidney problem. We are awaiting bloodwork results right now. So Monday or Tuesday, I will probably start a thread about what to feed also. She has had crystals before. I have a couple questions (one that was asked already but I don't believe it was answered yet):

How are UTIs and Crystals related? Does one cause the other?

Are there two or three types of crystals? Struvite, Calcium oxylate crystals and Phosphorus? Can someone explain this?

Basically with any type of UTI or crystals, you want to feed wet food mainly because the wet helps the problem, right? Is wet and dry ok? I am asking because I have 6 cats who free feed. It will be hard to limit Bowie from eating the dry without limiting the others.

I am sure more questions will come up...

Thanks a lot!

booktigger · Mar 26, 2006

My vet doesnt believe in prescription diets for crystals - she has read studies that show 80-90% of cats have them, and dont' have probs. So, she just says no dry food at all, wet food only, extra water and less stress (as Tom has stress related cystitis). Tom had 3 clear months on this, until a new foster arrived - her miaowing (she hates being cooped up, but fights with one of my cats when she is out) must be stressing him out. In the UK, Hills c/d says it can only be fed for a maximum of 6 months, I dont know if it is the same in the US, we only have Hills and RC prescription foods though.

sharky · Mar 26, 2006

breif

Basically with any type of UTI or crystals, you want to feed wet food mainly because the wet helps the problem, right? Is wet and dry ok? I am asking because I have 6 cats who free feed. It will be hard to limit Bowie from eating the dry without limiting the others.

I would say uti and crystals ... you really want to feed all wet or if able to separate cats feed the one or ones with issues all wet.... Dry is okay if rthey have no real issues but I would give dry to any cat with issues and many RX are not okay for healthy cats.. If you have to there are some dry food non RX that are urinary certified ( warning the ingrediants are not always A+ , two off the top of my head I would feed) that I would discuss with your vet...

all wet is best but I cant get two cats to eat alike no idea how to get six

booktigger · Mar 26, 2006

I have to say, I feed 5 cats in 5 different rooms to make sure they all eat the food they are supposed to. And spend at least half an hour a day running up and down the stairs to stop Tom eating Pebbles food, and Ginger eating Tom's food - I dont like shutting either of them in one room. And I can no longer leave dry food out all day cos Tom would eat it all!! So it really isn't easy. my vet gives me capsules for Tom that she says are more use than prescription food, so I have to make sure he eats all his food.

dr. doolittle · Mar 26, 2006

Originally Posted by Jen

I actually have a similar problem, if no one minds of I butt in here...

How are UTIs and Crystals related? Does one cause the other?

Are there two or three types of crystals? Struvite, Calcium oxylate crystals and Phosphorus? Can someone explain this?

Basically with any type of UTI or crystals, you want to feed wet food mainly because the wet helps the problem, right? Is wet and dry ok? I am asking because I have 6 cats who free feed. It will be hard to limit Bowie from eating the dry without limiting the others.

I am sure more questions will come up...

Thanks a lot!

UTI's cause crystals because the bacteria growing in the bladder will increase the pH of the urine and make it more alkaline. Alkaline urine is where Struvite (aka ammonium phosphate) crystals form. UTI's are most common in female cats (and dogs and people) due to differences in anatomy. In these cases a round of antibiotics clears up the infection and the crystals will go away.

In cats (and less commonly in dogs) crystals form in the urine without the presence of bacteria. These animals, for a variety of reasons (diet being one of them), do not maintain an appropriate urine pH. Urine pH should be 6.5. This becomes a problem in males due again to anatomy. The crystals form a sludge (and sometimes stones) in the bladder and eventually will block the urethra.

In cats the most common type of crystal formed is the Struvite (or ammonium phosphate) crystal. This occurs when the urine is too alkaline with a pH greater than 6.5. IME this is usually due to a comination of genetics and poor quality diet. For example a cat that may be prone to forming crystals is then fed bottom-of-the-barrel food, he then forms crystals and becomes blocked. (Female cats may also form crystals but don't end up at the vets because they don't become blocked). At the vets they are unblocked and placed on a dissolution diet to help them dissolve the crystals. They are usually also given IV fluids to correct imbalances caused be the event and promote urine production. This esentially helps them to flush out the crystals. These cats need special care for the rest of their lives. Some may require prescription diets but many will do quite well on other good quality diets from the pet store. Wet food is better because it increases water consumption and less concentrated urine. One thing is for sure- if you feed these cats poor quality food again at any time in their lives they will most definately form crystals again.

Free-feeding some dry won't usually hurt these guys as long as it is good quality food. I would still encourage you to feed wet food a couple of times a day and encourage water drinking in lots of other ways.

jlutgendorf · Mar 26, 2006

oh my god! Thank you Dr. Doolittle! I've been trying to understand this for so long!
And Jen I was going to tell you that Phosphate crystals are the same as Struvite. I had to call my vet and ask. But thanks to Dr. Doolittle for explaning it so well!

So, does anyone have ways of convincing a cat to eat wet? The best I can get is he'll sometimes lick off the gravy, but the Rx food doesn't have gravy, sooo, no deal.
Or convincing your vet to fax in an Rx for a different brand of Rx food? I'd like to switch my cat over to the Wysong diet for struvite crystals, but my vet didn't sound too excited by that.
Also, because my cat is about 1.5 years old, 13/4 lbs. does it sound like he's one of the kind of cats who's genetically predisposed to crystals? The vet said he probably is and will need to stay on an Rx diet for the rest of his life. That's find by me, I just want to know how to prevent him from getting sick again and feed him the best food I can.
He was on Iams multi cat and we recently made the switch to Nutro's Indoor formula (the mostly white bag with a green stripe). He had been on that food for about three weeks and then he came down with his first UTI/crystal diagnosis. They put him on a Royal Cannin formula and with his second one (I wasn't as good as I should have been about him getting into the other cats' Nutro) he's on SD c/d.
Thanks again for that description, that was so helpful!

~Julia

jen · Mar 28, 2006

That you very much Dr. Doolittle, that clears up most of my concerns.
I got the results back from my Bowie's labwork and everything was fine.
So at least the problem isn't that her kidneys and liver and stuff isn't doing it's job. Well the vet called and told me that and hung up without telling me what to do next since there obviously is a problem because she is peeing and seems a little painful around the lower stomach area.

I am still waiting to hear back from the vet

Bowie has had crystals once before so this weekend I am going to put her in the bathroom for the day with an empty litterbox and see if I can get a urine sample to take in and get tested for UTI/crystals. I am guessing she has crystals again, the vet originally said that might be what it is. So hopefully it is the dissolvable, treated by special diet kind (struvite right?) and not the surgically remove kind.

In the meantime the vet has put Bowie on Clavamox, Metacam and Cosequin.
So I am in the middle of treating her with those meds.

I also have started her on wet food daily as opposed to a treat. I bought a selection of Merrick, Chicken Soup, Solid Gold, Eagle something, and Nutro. A big variety of wet food which right now I am mixing her Cosequin into. Unfortunately she didn't seem to care much for the Merrick I fed today so I gave it to my other cats.

For dry I feed Chicken Soup for the Cat Lovers Soul and occationally some Nutro or Authority mixed in depending on what's on sale.

Sorry to the original poster for sort of taking over this thread...

renny · Jun 9, 2006

Originally Posted by Dr. Doolittle

UTI's cause crystals because the bacteria growing in the bladder will increase the pH of the urine and make it more alkaline. Alkaline urine is where Struvite (aka ammonium phosphate) crystals form. UTI's are most common in female cats (and dogs and people) due to differences in anatomy. In these cases a round of antibiotics clears up the infection and the crystals will go away.

In cats (and less commonly in dogs) crystals form in the urine without the presence of bacteria. These animals, for a variety of reasons (diet being one of them), do not maintain an appropriate urine pH. Urine pH should be 6.5. This becomes a problem in males due again to anatomy. The crystals form a sludge (and sometimes stones) in the bladder and eventually will block the urethra.

In cats the most common type of crystal formed is the Struvite (or ammonium phosphate) crystal. This occurs when the urine is too alkaline with a pH greater than 6.5. IME this is usually due to a comination of genetics and poor quality diet. For example a cat that may be prone to forming crystals is then fed bottom-of-the-barrel food, he then forms crystals and becomes blocked. (Female cats may also form crystals but don't end up at the vets because they don't become blocked). At the vets they are unblocked and placed on a dissolution diet to help them dissolve the crystals. They are usually also given IV fluids to correct imbalances caused be the event and promote urine production. This esentially helps them to flush out the crystals. These cats need special care for the rest of their lives. Some may require prescription diets but many will do quite well on other good quality diets from the pet store. Wet food is better because it increases water consumption and less concentrated urine. One thing is for sure- if you feed these cats poor quality food again at any time in their lives they will most definately form crystals again.

Free-feeding some dry won't usually hurt these guys as long as it is good quality food. I would still encourage you to feed wet food a couple of times a day and encourage water drinking in lots of other ways.

I hope people don't mind me resurrecting this thread. My Rambo was just diagnosed with crystals, we don't know which type they are since he didn't have any urine in his bladder to get a sample. He's on the Royal Canin SO and some pain meds. I am a bit confused as Rambo has been on a high quality diet for his whole life (at least since 8weeks), he's on half wet and half dry. He's always been very good about drinking water (he loves the toilet!). I guess it would seem i've been doing things right...so why at only a year and a half is poor Rambo having these problems. What am i doing wrong?

kittylove1 · Jun 9, 2006

Originally Posted by Dr. Doolittle

If your cat formed crystals on Innova and Chicken soup then he should stay on the Rx diet for the rest of his life. These are two good quality foods, but some cats (cats with FLUTD) just cannot tolerate anything other that Rx diets. They are just very sensitive to pH changes.
Hills is not the only company out there. You should look at VMD/Royal Canin. I like this company better- they preserve their diets naturally and use less by-product.

My kitty was just swtiched to Royal Canin (so) and he really seems to like it! This food combats both struvite and calcium oxylate crystals. I have a healthy cat that is also on it because the vet did not want to risk him eating her non-prescription food. He's not a canned food eater or I would try that as well.....I agree, this is high quality food!

Karen

jlutgendorf · Jun 9, 2006

Originally Posted by Renny

I hope people don't mind me resurrecting this thread. My Rambo was just diagnosed with crystals, we don't know which type they are since he didn't have any urine in his bladder to get a sample. He's on the Royal Canin SO and some pain meds. I am a bit confused as Rambo has been on a high quality diet for his whole life (at least since 8weeks), he's on half wet and half dry. He's always been very good about drinking water (he loves the toilet!). I guess it would seem i've been doing things right...so why at only a year and a half is poor Rambo having these problems. What am i doing wrong?

My vet explained that there were just some cats that are genetically prone to developing crystals.

If you had 100 cats all on the same water intake and same diet, there would be 5 that would get crystals. For some reason their bodies are processing food in such a way that they form crystals and will do so for the rest of their lives.

I'm currently feeding my male cat (who has struvite crystals) a mix of Science Diet c/d (i think) and Wysong's Struvatrol (as I can afford it!) with water mixed in. He's not too happy about the wysong, but it's ingredients are soooo much better than the SD and I know he gets extra water as well this way.

So you didn't do anything wrong, your kitty is just prone to crystals. My boy also went a year and half with no problems and for part of that we were feeding him awful food! (I've learned a lot about food from this site!)

~Julia

renny · Jun 9, 2006

Thanks Julia. How is your boy doing? Rambo loves all food all the time, so switching him to this food has been a breeze. Lucky is very picky, so for now she's staying on the regular food...just trying to separate them for feeding time. Has the special diet been successful?

dcgirl79 · Jun 9, 2006

This thread has been very helpful! I have just adopted a 3 year old DSH that has had a history of struvite crystals and even had a cystotomy procedure before. He is absolutely destroying my broadloom carpet and I'd like to train him to use the scratching post.

I've tried catnip and can scold him when I'm around, but would prefer to use postive re-inforcement when he uses the post. How can I reward him with treats that are safe for a cat with struvite problems? Are there any treats that are suitable for him?

Thanks for any advice!

kittylove1 · Jun 10, 2006

You need to try Soft Paws...they are a godsend! I've had two cats with them now and one adjusted right away - like she didn't even notice them on and my other one got used to them in a couple of days. That meaning he would pull them off and I would immediately pop anotheron. They really are wonderful...they have a website - check it out, they come in all colors and appropriate sizes.

Hope this helps! As for treats....my kitty Charley (the one with the crystals) knows the word "treat" so I just put down a little clump of his urinary dry food and he accepts that as his treat!

Karen

jlutgendorf · Jun 11, 2006

Originally Posted by Renny

Thanks Julia. How is your boy doing? Rambo loves all food all the time, so switching him to this food has been a breeze. Lucky is very picky, so for now she's staying on the regular food...just trying to separate them for feeding time. Has the special diet been successful?

Hey Renny, be glad your guys loves all food! It took us two rounds of antibiotics to clear up his initial infection. I don't think we were good enough the first time making sure he didn't get into the other cats food. I finally ended up feeding everyone the Rx food through the second round of Baytril.

Of course now I'm dealing with Duncan (UTI kitty) not loving the SD or the Wysong, and my other two wanting to eat nothing BUT his Rx food. Those cats . . .

The switch has been beneficial. I feed him meals now rather than free feed and that's helped him loose some extra weight. I am always a little worried about him getting a UTI again and maybe blocking, but so far he seems to be doing well.

I do wish I could find a better kibble for him as the SD has pretty bad ingredients.

~Julia

dcgirl79 · Jun 11, 2006

Originally Posted by kittylove1

You need to try Soft Paws...they are a godsend! I've had two cats with them now and one adjusted right away - like she didn't even notice them on and my other one got used to them in a couple of days. That meaning he would pull them off and I would immediately pop anotheron. They really are wonderful...they have a website - check it out, they come in all colors and appropriate sizes.

Hope this helps! As for treats....my kitty Charley (the one with the crystals) knows the word "treat" so I just put down a little clump of his urinary dry food and he accepts that as his treat!

Karen

Hi Karen,

Thanks so much for the suggestion to try SOFT PAWS! They work great and Avery tries to take them off but I have no more damage to my broadloom. They were a bit of a struggle to get on, but so far the glue is doing its job and he hasn't removed any although he has definitely tried.

As for dry treats, I am seeing the vet for the first time on Thursday. I will ask her about dry food that is safe to be used as a treat for training purposes. Thanks again!

Here's a picture of Avery with his Soft Paws on.

sharky · Jun 11, 2006

Originally Posted by jlutgendorf

Hey Renny, be glad your guys loves all food! It took us two rounds of antibiotics to clear up his initial infection. I don't think we were good enough the first time making sure he didn't get into the other cats food. I finally ended up feeding everyone the Rx food through the second round of Baytril.

Of course now I'm dealing with Duncan (UTI kitty) not loving the SD or the Wysong, and my other two wanting to eat nothing BUT his Rx food. Those cats . . .

The switch has been beneficial. I feed him meals now rather than free feed and that's helped him loose some extra weight. I am always a little worried about him getting a UTI again and maybe blocking, but so far he seems to be doing well.

I do wish I could find a better kibble for him as the SD has pretty bad ingredients.

~Julia

Can u get Purinas RXs or Royal Canin/Waltham??? both usually have slightly better ingrediants than SD the later usually being better

Urine Crystals -- Is prescription diet needed?

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