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post #31 of 53
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Humans are primates and all primates are either herbivores or omnivores who eat a very limited amount of meat. We are simply not designed to digest large amounts of meat. Compare our physiology to that of a cat or a dog and it is obvious.

Carnivores have short guts and extremely large teeth. We have neither.
We have teeth relatve to the size of our head. We *do* have canines which are made for ripping and tearing meat. Just because they aren't as long as other's ominvores/carnivores doesn't mean thats not what they are for. Compared to other ominvores in nature, we are right in line with our physiology.

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Furthermore, many of the chronic diseases that humans get are directly linked to the consumption of animal products. Coronary artery disease and colon cancer are two of the biggest. Vegans very, very rarely get coronary artery disease. Furthermore, vegan or near-vegan diets such as the Ornish and McDougal diets have actually been successful in *reversing* coronary heart disease.
If i didn't have some meat in my diet i would be VERY sick. I am anemic, and the meat in my diet helps keep me healthy. I take viatmins, etc, but no suppliment in the world can replace the real thing. My doctor FORCES me to eat some sort of red meat at least weekly, because he doesn't want to see me hospitalized again.

The woman did what she wanted to do though. She got us talking and debating the rights and wrongs of it. The people that are just going to stand there and gawk aren't the one's you're trying to target, especially in the age of the internet, where mature thinking adults can get together and discuss things, such as being vegan, or politics.

Also, some of you might hate me for this, but my grandfather owned and operated a cattle ranch up until a year ago. I can tell you, if it eases anyone's mind, exactly how they are treated and how they are slaughtered. They are treated a LOT better than the cow hands that are attending to them, trust me on that.

-Jade
post #32 of 53
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Originally Posted by Leli
I agree about the hijack thing, but I just wanted to add my 2 cents first.....but don't worry, it's not aggressive .
Anywho, my sister is a vegetarian. She still eats some dairy, but no meat or fish. She initially had some issues with anemia that were dealt with through dietary additions and supplements. She is now healthy in her diet.
She decided to go veggie when she was about 13 and I was 15. She first gave up all meat but chicken, then stopped eating chicken after about 8 months. During this time, I tried the no-meat diet along with her, just to see how I would do. I did badly. She seems to be perfectly content not eating meat, but I wasn't. I crave it. It occupies my thoughts if I don't get it. So, I eat it. I recognize that this is my personal choice, which may be selfish, but it is MY choice.
My point, boys and girls, is that what is right for my sister didn't work for me, and vice versa. But we still get along, go out to dinner together etc. I don't offer her my meat (unless I'm joking) and she doesn't offer me tofu (which I HATE. For some reason, it just tastes bad to me). We are living proof that we can have different ideals and still respect each other's choices. Please try to do the same. What's right for one, may not be right for some. It takes different strokes to rule the world
That may all be true, but I wish that we could all just agree to treat the animals that some people DO insist on slaughtering with a LOT more respect. Personally, I don't think humans were built to eat meat. We don't have the speed to chase animals down, we don't have the sense of smell to track animals, we don't have sharp claws or teeth. I agree with the research that suggests that an ice "age" would have necessitated human hunting animals and that it's not hardwired into us as species. I think we have evoled into a species used to meat and dairy, although one couldn't certainly say that a diet full of meat and dairy would be particularly healthy to ANYONE.

That all being said, I don't really have as much of an issue with the actual ACT of eating meat, but rather with the idea of factory and corproate farming. I'm veg for that reason and that reason only. If we did it the way the Native American did, where the animal was killed painlessly and was allowed to live as nature intended and die with dignity and where absolutely no part of the animal went to waste, I don't think I'd have an issue with people eating meat. But there is a total direspect for life in modern agriculture and farming that just ticks me off to no end.
post #33 of 53
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Originally Posted by lionessrampant
That may all be true, but I wish that we could all just agree to treat the animals that some people DO insist on slaughtering with a LOT more respect.
Define a lot more respect? They are slaughtered in a humane way so that there is no suffering. I'm sorry, but these animals are NOT pets, they don't need a prayer said for them when they die, so as long as they are being killed humanley, i dont see how much more respect you can give them.

-Jade
post #34 of 53
I agree with most of you here. I think there's plenty of other ways to bring people's awareness of animal issues up without trying to force them to be vegan.

I, too, don't wake up every morning thinking, `Don't eat meat today!!'. I just don't eat it, simple.

But not everyone feels that way, or wants to be vegetarian/vegan, and that's ok too!

I would rather see protests about puppy/kitten mills, BYBs and animal cruelty perpetuated by domestic animal owners being protested, than try to force someone to be vegan.

I appreciate their effort and their point, though, and am glad they didn't feel the need to make it lewd, loud and illegal
post #35 of 53
I am all for peaceful protests, but I don't think that her message was delivered in a way that had impact. Her message was lost in the medium of delivery.

As long as the protesters just inform and protest and do not harrass or prevent me from doing as I choose, then I am fine. When they do things like pour paint on fur coats - that is just vandelism. I personally don't agree with fur, but vandelism is not the answer.

Personally I enjoy eating meat - I will listen to all the arguements against that they wish to bring, but I can't see me changing.
post #36 of 53
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Originally Posted by AshleyJade
Define a lot more respect? They are slaughtered in a humane way so that there is no suffering. I'm sorry, but these animals are NOT pets, they don't need a prayer said for them when they die, so as long as they are being killed humanley, i dont see how much more respect you can give them.

-Jade
What difference does it make whether or not they are pets? There is no meaningful difference whatsoever between a cat and a cow, a dog and a pig, a parrot and a chicken. The only difference is that we arbitrarily decided that one is "friend" and the other is "food".

Just think about how you feel when you hear about cats being slaughtered for meat in East Asia.

And if you don't think animals suffer when they are slaughtered, then spend some time in a slaughterhouse and see if you come out still believing that.
post #37 of 53
And if you think that all beef and/or dairy cattle suffer their entire lives, spend some actual time on a ranch or family farm. Not all livestock are treated badly before or for consumption.
post #38 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb
And if you think that all beef and/or dairy cattle suffer their entire lives, spend some actual time on a ranch or family farm. Not all livestock are treated badly before or for consumption.
Certainly not all suffer their whole lives. Beef cows in particular only seriously suffer for the last 6 weeks or so of their lives, from feed lot to slaughter. But the life of a commercially raised chicken or pig is truly horrific, from birth to death.

Family farms are certainly different from factory farms. But if you think the meat you buy at the grocery store came from family farms, then you're almost certainly wrong.
post #39 of 53
I know what farms my meat comes from since I started buying organic from a local store with a local rancher... one of the small chains also will tell you which farm it came from I say its the atvantage to small town living
post #40 of 53
You can go here to find family farms that sell meat, eggs, and even dairy, as well as organic fruits and veggies. You might be surpised with how available this stuff can be:

www.localharvest.org
post #41 of 53
I think if I lived in a place where organic meat was available from a local producer, I would still eat it. And my sister-in-law, who is a vet (and vegetarian) told me that actually cattle are not treated too badly. But pigs and chickens? Absolutely the worst, appalling treatment. I've never understood why some `vegetarians' will still eat chicken - I don't get it, I mean, it's still meat, right?

I am reading a lot about Buddhism and Buddhists, although vegetarian/vegan, will eat some shellfish and fish because they feel that they don't have a higher consciousness. I'm still in two minds over that one, first because I adore fish and miss eating it, and secondly because, well, how do they know??
post #42 of 53
Sarah

I am reading a lot about Buddhism and Buddhists, although vegetarian/vegan, will eat some shellfish and fish because they feel that they don't have a higher consciousness. I'm still in two minds over that one, first because I adore fish and miss eating it, and secondly because, well, how do they know??
__________________
My small fish are conscious so I guess I wouldnt go by that... I wish I could stop eating chn... i have thought aobut raising my own..
post #43 of 53
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Originally Posted by semiferal
What difference does it make whether or not they are pets? There is no meaningful difference whatsoever between a cat and a cow, a dog and a pig, a parrot and a chicken. The only difference is that we arbitrarily decided that one is "friend" and the other is "food".

Just think about how you feel when you hear about cats being slaughtered for meat in East Asia.

And if you don't think animals suffer when they are slaughtered, then spend some time in a slaughterhouse and see if you come out still believing that.
i *HAVE* spent time in a slaughter house. As I said before, my grandfather owned a cattle ranch, and I went through the entire process. I worked the ranch, and did all of that, right up to delivery. I did it every summer until i graduated high school. And the meaningful difference between a cow and a cat is that my cats are smart, where as cows are not. They have no idea whats going on. They are treated MUCH better than I was when i was working the ranch. They are these people's living, what good would it do them to hurt them?

-Jade
post #44 of 53
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Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva!
I think if I lived in a place where organic meat was available from a local producer, I would still eat it. And my sister-in-law, who is a vet (and vegetarian) told me that actually cattle are not treated too badly. But pigs and chickens? Absolutely the worst, appalling treatment. I've never understood why some `vegetarians' will still eat chicken - I don't get it, I mean, it's still meat, right?

I am reading a lot about Buddhism and Buddhists, although vegetarian/vegan, will eat some shellfish and fish because they feel that they don't have a higher consciousness. I'm still in two minds over that one, first because I adore fish and miss eating it, and secondly because, well, how do they know??
My research would point to the fishing industry as being the leas abusive, though I'm not necessarily sure this is true. One would think that you go out on a boat, pull them out of the water and they asphyxiate within minutes. But who knows what torturous BS man has thought up to add to what would seemingly be a simple process.

As for the higher conscience thing...it's just as arbitrary as saying that cows are meat but cats aren't.
post #45 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by AshleyJade
i *HAVE* spent time in a slaughter house. As I said before, my grandfather owned a cattle ranch, and I went through the entire process. I worked the ranch, and did all of that, right up to delivery. I did it every summer until i graduated high school. And the meaningful difference between a cow and a cat is that my cats are smart, where as cows are not. They have no idea whats going on. They are treated MUCH better than I was when i was working the ranch. They are these people's living, what good would it do them to hurt them?

-Jade
So the criteria is intelligence? Then do we get to eat mentally disabled people? And what of pigs, who are more intelligent than either cats or dogs?

One doesn't have to understand what's going on to feel pain. And being slaughtered hurts. It's a fact of biology. And if you were mistreated when you were working on the ranch, that's wrong too.

People in this country always have some manner of choice when it comes to employment. I have no desire to see anyone unemployed, but there are plenty of industries that I'd like to see go away completely. I'd like to see the people who work in these industries go and get other jobs.

Besides, industries have been going belly up for years - just look at the tech bust of 2000, or the decimation of the airline and hospitality industries following the terrorist attacks of 9/11. People were unemployed and that was rotten, but people studied and trained for new careers and found new jobs and survived just fine. There are higher goods than protecting an industry, and respecting the lives of our fellow creatures is most certainly one of them. And even taking all that into account, no reasonable person expects the animal industry to go "belly up" anytime in the foreseeable future. If it happens at all, it'll be a phase out, just like many other industries and classes of employment have been phased out over the years.
post #46 of 53
I think this thread proves that the "naked lady" got her point across very well. You are talking about it, right? The nakedness got the news there, and while many people may have seen just that she was naked, many others didn't.

I've been a vegetarian for five years and I think this woman is a hero. You don't need meat, and we need way less protein than the American diet would convince you. And, it's ecologically responsible since we waste so much energy and grain feeding all the farm animals just so they can poo it out and then we eat them instead. What if we just raised the plants that we needed instead? Less energy wasted... less corporate agriculture (which resembles strip mining, ecologically)... less antibiotics in the food source... oh, and bird flu ain't my fault.
post #47 of 53
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Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom

I've been a vegetarian for five years and I think this woman is a hero. You don't need meat, and we need way less protein than the American diet would convince you. And, it's ecologically responsible since we waste so much energy and grain feeding all the farm animals just so they can poo it out and then we eat them instead. What if we just raised the plants that we needed instead? Less energy wasted... less corporate agriculture (which resembles strip mining, ecologically)... less antibiotics in the food source... oh, and bird flu ain't my fault.
Try telling that to the dairy and meat industries. We only still have the protein reccomendation we do because of these lobbies. They have both money and people in Washington (i.e. the president?) that the Green/Veg movement doesn't. Red meat and most dairy is actually TERRIBLE for you. You could probably consider poultry and fish safe to eat, assuming it's organic and some of the cultures in organic cheese and nonfat yogurt are quite good for you (as I found out the heard way)...but hard yellow processed cheese? milk? beef? pork? All totally unhealthy. And we wonder why we're so fat in this country and why we're all dying of heart disease and bowel cancers.
post #48 of 53
This conversation has totally ceased to be productive, IMO. The people posting simply won't listen to the other side's argument. Condemnation of one's beliefs or lack of a particular belief won't suddently indocrinate them.

(The following statements are directed at the general "you" as the collective arguments I've heard every time this conversation/argument takes place.)

Yeah, I do take offense when I'm told that my extended family's livelihood should just be "phased out" or ended because of your particular beliefs. It doesn't matter how humanely they treat their livestock, because they all abuse the livestock just by having them and using them as a food source (whether beef or dairy). Have you actually BEEN to a farm? Do you KNOW the people whose lives would be affected, and know how they view their livelihood, i.e. their livestock?

You say they suffer during slaughter. A bolt through the brain brings instant death. They do not feel anything, although the neurological system may still twitch throughout the body after the actual death. It may not be pretty to watch, but it isn't painful unless someone really messes up. And guess what? When a hunter does his/her job correctly, Bambi doesn't suffer either (and the nutritional arguments generally don't hold water when it comes to venison, which is VERY lean). One shot, one kill, instant death. That's what EVERY good hunter aspires to. It does have to do with respecting the animal, contrary to what PETA has to say about hunters.

It is absolutely amazing to me how it's deemed OK to force the belief that eating meat is horrible on everyone, but when Christians do it around their core beliefs of, say, abortion well that's just heinous. A life is a life, right? A cat is a cow is a person...
post #49 of 53
I didn't mean nobody should eat meat. I never tell anyone how I feel about it unless they specifically ask. Not all vegetarians are the same person.
Just like I recycle everything the city will recycle, and turn off lights when I'm not in the room, and leave the heat turned down even though its included in the rent. Does doing these things threaten the livelihood of coal miners?
Nobody wants to phase out family farms. I think everyone would agree that there should be far more of them and far fewer of the kind where thousands of heads of cattle are kept so close together that their muscles atrophy and they have to be pumped full of chemicals and hormones.
And I don't object to hunting. And I DO object to PETA.
post #50 of 53
Thank you. I totally respect your choice to go vegetarian or vegan. And I really do appreciate your willingness to accept others' choices, as well as the ability to differentiate between the factory farms and the family farms.
post #51 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb
Thank you. I totally respect your choice to go vegetarian or vegan. And I really do appreciate your willingness to accept others' choices, as well as the ability to differentiate between the factory farms and the family farms.
I would never incriminate family farms, either (unless of course they were doing something sketchy). I'd LOVE to see more of them and I'd love to put my money into only stores and organizations that support family farms. I even try to get all of my produce from these farms and have no issue eating dairy from organic, independent farm co-ops. When I can go visit the cows and see that they are treated well, then I'm ok with that. WHen I know that the calves aren't being sold into the veal industry and the cows aren't kept hopped up on hormones or bred more often than is healthy, then I'm ok with that.

Personally, I think that killing another highly developed and intelligent animal is wrong. And I will continue to, as Gandhi said, be the change I wish to see in the world. But some of the atrocities of factory farming are just wrong and inexcusable any way you look at it, meat eater or not. If you're going to raise or hunt meat to eat, fine. I won't say I agree with your choice, but if you can at least let the life you're about to end be dignified and respected, I can respect your choice.
post #52 of 53
Lots of respect to you guys who are vegans and vegetarians. I tried so hard to be a vegetarian, just for the overall healthiness of it and for the animals sake too. I do love animals in case anyone was wondering. But I realized I do also love chicken and turkey. I could easily be a vegetarian if I could be one who eats poultry. I could give up beef no problem. I rarely eat it as it is. And cheese. I could never be a vegan either because I love cheese and milk. I mean, I love soy milk and tofu too but as a variety, not a strict diet

So awesome for all you vegetarians and vegans, I wish I could do it. And maybe someday I will convert
post #53 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb
This conversation has totally ceased to be productive, IMO. The people posting simply won't listen to the other side's argument. Condemnation of one's beliefs or lack of a particular belief won't suddently indocrinate them.

(The following statements are directed at the general "you" as the collective arguments I've heard every time this conversation/argument takes place.)

Yeah, I do take offense when I'm told that my extended family's livelihood should just be "phased out" or ended because of your particular beliefs. It doesn't matter how humanely they treat their livestock, because they all abuse the livestock just by having them and using them as a food source (whether beef or dairy). Have you actually BEEN to a farm? Do you KNOW the people whose lives would be affected, and know how they view their livelihood, i.e. their livestock?

You say they suffer during slaughter. A bolt through the brain brings instant death. They do not feel anything, although the neurological system may still twitch throughout the body after the actual death. It may not be pretty to watch, but it isn't painful unless someone really messes up. And guess what? When a hunter does his/her job correctly, Bambi doesn't suffer either (and the nutritional arguments generally don't hold water when it comes to venison, which is VERY lean). One shot, one kill, instant death. That's what EVERY good hunter aspires to. It does have to do with respecting the animal, contrary to what PETA has to say about hunters.

It is absolutely amazing to me how it's deemed OK to force the belief that eating meat is horrible on everyone, but when Christians do it around their core beliefs of, say, abortion well that's just heinous. A life is a life, right? A cat is a cow is a person...

I actually have many relatives who are farmers, on both sides. Almost everyone in my paternal grandmother's entire family is involved with farming in some way. My great-grandparents started a dairy farm when they came to the US in the early 1900's and now some of their great-grandchildren are taking over the farms. My childhood best friend's dad artificially inseminates dairy cows for a living, and many of my childhood friends lived on farms. I've been around farms and farming to some extent for my entire life. And for much of my life, I seriously believed that the family farms I knew were what all farms looked like, and that all animals lived like the animals I saw. On that point, I was simply misinformed.

I don't have a real moral problem with family farms, but the fact is that family farms are already being driven out of existence by factory farms.

We're spending a lot of time talking about beef cattle, but it is well accepted that overall, the life of a beef cow isn't all that bad. Honestly, I'd tell anyone that if they absolutely don't want to give up all meat, then eating beef is what causes the least suffering. But when it comes to chickens and turkeys and pigs - their lives are horrific from beginning to end. Factory farmed birds and pigs never see the light of day, never have anything but concrete under their feet, never even get enough space to turn around in. And pigs are more intelligent even than cats or dogs!

In slaughterhouses, screwups happen with some regularity. It's a natural consequence when it is a business and the almighty dollar is king. Moving the assembly line along is what matters and a fair number of animals are not killed as quickly or painlessly as "the system" would ideally have them die. Fundamentally, a slaughterhouse is a business and it's run by cash. Maximizing profits matters far more than ensuring that every animal has a painless death.

But furthermore, slaughterhouse workers have some of the worst and most dangerous working conditions of any workers in this country. 29% suffer a substantial on-the-job injury each year, to say nothing of the repetitive motion injuries and the illnesses from exposure to noxious fumes and the like. For more information, you can visit here: http://www.askfarmerbrown.org/labor.htm

On hunting, I certainly believe that killing for recreation is disturbing to say the least. But I have way, way less of an issue with hunting than I do with picking up a package of chicken breasts at your local supermarket - and while the point about a wild animal getting to live his natural life until he dies is certainly very valid, it's actually not what I consider to be the most important aspect. I became a vegetarian when I realized that since I could never, ever look an animal in the eye and then kill him and eat him, it was not fair to have someone else do it for me. If you can look an animal in the eye and kill him because you like the way his flesh tastes (and even though you have a supermarket full of other options), I can't and don't intend to do a thing about that. I wouldn't agree with you, I'd be offended by the whole idea, and frankly I'd probably be a bit worried about what you might do to me or my animals if you felt like it, but I'd respect your consistency and honesty. But if you'd make different choices if you had to do the killing yourself, then you probably have some serious thinking to do. I know I did. I used to eat meat, pretty much every day. My family is a bunch of huge meat eaters. But for me, it came down to being honest with myself.

And in response to your last point, for the record I am 100% pro-life.
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