Ideal age for first queening

I have a dilemma that I have been discussing with my mentors, and I would like to ask your opinion. One of my mentors is the breeder I bought my two Siamese from. She has seven years experience with a large cattery. The other wto have smaller, home based catteries like my own, but likewise have many (over 10 each) years experience. We have been discussing what the ideal age to begin breeding a queen is; myself and two of the breeders feel that 12 months is ideal, definitely not under. However the other breeder raised the question of heat; if a queen is coming into heat more than four times before she reaches 12 months, she thinks that will inhibit her chances of having trouble-free pregnancies and healthy litters because of the higher chance of ovarian cysts. This raises the question that, if a female is coming into heat early, would she be at greater risk of ovarian cysts? I have read up on ovarian cysts, and find that it is one reason ethicists give for early desexing of females (as if unwanted litters were'nt enough reason) but is this really a huge risk for the early caller, or is it just a 'maybe' risk that can happen but usually doesnt'?

This is something I have wondered about too. While most, if not all of the written references to any sort of breeder ethics I can find include something to the effect of "an ethical breeder doesn't allow more than two litters per year and only after the queen has achieved one year of age", I think real life more or less determines what is best for any one individual set of circumstances.

Yes. The particular case I am considering is my queen to be. She is 10 months old, and although the breeder seems to think she has come into call twice when she was with her, and twice when she was with me. I am of the opinion (as are two of my mentors) that I shouldn't breed her til 12 months of age. However her breeder is putting pressure on me to breed her asap, as she had a bad experience with a queen that wasn't bred until 18 months and then had only still born litters. I am aware of the ovarian cyst risk, but as far as I was aware, the real risk was with queens that came often and strongly into heat at a young age (hence the prolonged irritation of the ovaries leading to cysts). The main problem with my girl is that she doesn't come in strongly, and I am unsure whether she has in fact been in heat as often as the breeder said. And as she hasn't come in very strongly, I am of the opinion that she is less at risk than the breeder thinks, and could be safely left another cycle. She is very fine and petite, and we had some trouble with her losing weight when she was settling in with us, so I have been wanting to wait until she filled out a little more. When she comes into heat she doesn't call, or change her behaviour much. My gut instinct is to wait until she is ready, and I am definite she really is in heat, but I want to be sure I am doing the right thing.

For Siamese it would depend on how often she's coming into heat - I would say her first litter should be 10-12 months unless she was coming into heat alot.

For show purposes, 8 months is an "adult" that would be about right for first litter. You don't want her to keep coming into heat over and over without being bred - IF she is top quality - if not, then spay her.

If she's not coming in strong (which is unusual for a Siamese ) then there may be something internally wrong - I'd have one litter and see what happens. You may have to spay her.

I've been asking this question a lot. I would most certainly breed before a year if the cat is going through strong heats as its probably not good for them to have 3 strong heats in a row as it increases many risk factors in health. In the wild they would not go for many heats before being bred and heaven knows there are plenty of cats that come into the world with no problems.

I find many bengal breeders will breed right away. Dealing with early generation bengals, if you don't breed right off (1st, 2nd, or 3rd heat) then you are increasing the chance of infertility as they have low fertility to start with.

My mentors vet told her as long as the cat is 5lb then they can carry a litter safely. Some cats don't get bigger than 6lb anyway. I think this is a lot more important than the actual age of the cat.

I'd say that anything around 12 months of age is suitable and of course you have to look at the individual. A female that comes into heat early (at 4-5 months of age) and keep going into heat might do very well being bred at appr. 10 months of age while there's no hurry in breeding a female that's only had one heat before 12 months of age.

I don't know anything about the ovarian cysts though, sorry. My females have had their first litter quite late. The oldest one had her first litter at 3 years of age and the younger female had her first litter at 2 years of age. They both gave birth to normal litters. I highly doubt that a female 18 months old would develop any problems so the case you mention... I don't think it has anything to do with the age of the queen, I think it was bad luck (or possibly blood group incompatability).

See to the individual!

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

For Siamese it would depend on how often she's coming into heat - I would say her first litter should be 10-12 months unless she was coming into heat alot.

For show purposes, 8 months is an "adult" that would be about right for first litter. You don't want her to keep coming into heat over and over without being bred - IF she is top quality - if not, then spay her.

If she's not coming in strong (which is unusual for a Siamese

) then there may be something internally wrong - I'd have one litter and see what happens. You may have to spay her.

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She is a VERY quiet siamese...in fact she is quieter than any cat I've had. She is also naturally timid, so the way I can tell she is on heat is that she becomes more confident and very clingy. She doesn't call, so those are the only signs. She is a very nice girl with good type and bloodlines, so I would like to breed her. She is the kind of cat that you think is very fragile and kind of sickly, then surprises you by popping out 6 big fat babies with hardly a squeak. She is exceptionally timid and shy to other cats and people, but stands them all down over food, growling louder than she meows! So I am watching her to see what will happen. If she has trouble conceiving, or with her litter, I will spay her and just have fun showing her. Apparently her mother would have long gaps between coming in, and didn't come in very strongly, and had med. sized litters, so I'm just going to wait and see. I'll keep you posted though.

Originally Posted by SolarityBengals

I've been asking this question a lot. I would most certainly breed before a year if the cat is going through strong heats as its probably not good for them to have 3 strong heats in a row as it increases many risk factors in health. In the wild they would not go for many heats before being bred and heaven knows there are plenty of cats that come into the world with no problems.

I find many bengal breeders will breed right away. Dealing with early generation bengals, if you don't breed right off (1st, 2nd, or 3rd heat) then you are increasing the chance of infertility as they have low fertility to start with.

My mentors vet told her as long as the cat is 5lb then they can carry a litter safely. Some cats don't get bigger than 6lb anyway. I think this is a lot more important than the actual age of the cat.

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Yes, I agree with you on the 'strong heats' point. If she had been coming in strongly I would have whizzed her off to the stud, however she has come in very weakly up until now. This last heat (which I did put her to stud, but it seems she hasn't accepted him) was the strongest, but not strong enough for her to display serious mating behaviour, or accept a strange stud. She is 2-2.5 kg and she is quite fine, which is the main reason I have been holding off. I feel she is ready, but I am not sure if she feels ready yet. She has bonded strongly to our young boy, who is just about to be ready for stud duties, and I am thinking that perhaps him being around is enough to prevent her going into heat very strongly, and also may have prevented her accepting the other stud. I have has her around the young boy, but so far their friendship seems strictly platonic!!

Originally Posted by Sol

I'd say that anything around 12 months of age is suitable and of course you have to look at the individual. A female that comes into heat early (at 4-5 months of age) and keep going into heat might do very well being bred at appr. 10 months of age while there's no hurry in breeding a female that's only had one heat before 12 months of age.

I don't know anything about the ovarian cysts though, sorry. My females have had their first litter quite late. The oldest one had her first litter at 3 years of age and the younger female had her first litter at 2 years of age. They both gave birth to normal litters. I highly doubt that a female 18 months old would develop any problems so the case you mention... I don't think it has anything to do with the age of the queen, I think it was bad luck (or possibly blood group incompatability).

See to the individual!

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Well that's encouraging
I know that Siamese are slow developers compared to some other breeds, which is why I have held off, and also as she is quite petite. She has been only mildly coming into heat so far, so I am hoping that the next heat will be strong enough for her to be really ready.

For me, if the queen is large at an earlier age then 12 months, i'll let her breed (even if it is the first heat). I feel that in the wild they would breed on their first heat so im not going to stop what nature intended. However, if the queen is smaller then usual, i'll wait to breed her. For instance, I have a queen that is long and large and was 8 lbs. at 8 months old. I let her breed on her first noticable (but barely noticable) heat at 10 months old. She has the kittens when she was 1 year old and had no problems what so ever delivering the kittens. Her mother is smaller then her and always has problems with delivery.
I also have a silver quueen that is 10 months old and weighs 8 lbs. but for some reason she seems much smaller then my other queen, so im waiting untill she hits a strong heat to breed her. If she should come into heat strongly within the next month or so i'll have her bred.

Unless there's a really good reason for it, like the queen is severely underweight or sick, I won't let a queen go through more then two strong heats without being bred. Too great a risk IMO.

I have read that delivery problems can result from having small litters, not large litters, which is interesting!

"siamese are slow developers"??????? Don't know what lines yours are out of, but most of the siamese breeders I know have young females that develop fast.

In fact, one had a 5 month old male that got two of her queens pregnant when she thought he had no clue as to what to do - he became a father at 7 months!

I don't think there is a hard and fast rule on this. Each cat should be assessed on it own developmental progress. One of the concerns here is to be sure the kitten is done growing. Some kittens can be mature anywhere from 9 to 12 months. Just as pet owners need to monitor when to move to adult food from kitten food. If a kitten starts to put on a Buddha belly you know its time to move to adult food. Your kitten needs to be judged on her own scale.

I am a Siamese breeder and had planned to breed my current queen at 1 year. We unexpectedly had to move across the country and our breeding plans had to be put on hold. I wanted all the cats to be settled and stress free before breeding so she was not bred until she was 17 months. I was worried but she was just fine and has been ever since no complications with any of her litters and all kittens have been very healthy. She does not go into estrus overdrive as Siamese have been described here. The breeder of my stud also advised me to wait more then a year before putting him to stud as his Siamese boys take longer to mature.

Your best guide with this would most likely be your Vet. Don't let anyone push you into something you feel is not right for your girl.