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Greenies dangerous and fatal? - Page 2

post #31 of 56
Jcat and Pat thank you... I didnt think about digestability... I do give compressed rawhide but I closely supervise and beef hide I imagine is reasonably digestable..

I wouldnt use the feline greenies either as they have an ingrediant my vet said dont give... the dog ones have it to and I wonder if it is the root of the digestablity issue
post #32 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv
Coaster, just wondering, are you a Greenies distributor?
Ha ha....no. And I don't think I would have made the comment about them being too expensive if I was.
post #33 of 56
I'm definitely not going to try them.
post #34 of 56
Well, there's a part package on my kitchen counter and another unopened. After reading that article and this thread, they are both going in the garbage.
post #35 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv
I don't know about the cat ones but the dog ones are more than a bite sized treat. The are in the shape of a dog bone.

Please people for the sake of you pet, do not give them Greenies.

the same could be said for lots of other treats as well. I do not think there is anything out there there that is 100%

Big huge problem on a basset board i was on which lead me to do more research, was about sams yams,a supposedly 100% safe and digestable treat...

case from the person on the board,and i have found several others of it becomeing lodged, and not digesting.

i wouldnt call sticks digestable either (seeing as when i have seen stool from dogs that have eaten sticks you guessed it. Wood chips)

IMO there is no 100% safe treat for dogs, so i guess feed at your own risk.

I feed greenies, I have no problem with them other than the high fat content.and they are spendy.i have never seen a greenie part in any of my dogs stool..ect (and yes i look at stools everytime they make one)

and i feed feline greenies too. They are no diffrent than any other tartar treat offered at Petco, and Petsmart IMO
post #36 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster
The article cited above is by a competitor. I don't put much weight on that. Can you cite any objective and unbiased sources specifically regarding the same concerns about the Feline Greenies? The CNN article in the OP is about dogs.
If you mean the link I gave? It is not by a competitor - it is by a retailer who has a rather detailed newsletter they put out and who did their little tests on the canine greenies re digestibility. A concerned and caring retailer who takes seriously, the issue of what they offer to their customers.

I am commenting on the canine greenies and why, given my concerns, since I am not aware of the formula being that different in the feline version (if different at all, would have to check ingredients list), it doesn't change my concern...or my point about why I will not risk using this treat.

Folks should make up their own minds, understanding that some of us, have concerns, and why we have them.
post #37 of 56
Geez, I just gave my two cats a bunch of greenies a few hours ago!
post #38 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat & Alix
... I am not aware of the formula being that different in the feline version (if different at all, would have to check ingredients list), ...
I don't have the ingredients list to check, but just look at and feel the feline greenies -- they're completely different. The canine greenies are hard, solid and dense, with a smooth, shiny surface. The feline greenies are lighter, rougher, less dense, with a dull surface, and more crumbly. Even if the ingredients list is similar, the formulation is totally different. While there is enough evidence for a genuine concern about canine greenies, extrapolating that to feline greenies at this time is a leap to conclusions. I think people should wait to see objective evidence about the feline greenies before they make up their minds and condemn the product.

I'm not here as a supporter for feline greenies; I'm here as a supporter of a rational, level-headed approach to what may be, or what may not be, a concern. I need to see the evidence, not just a personal concern, no matter if it's genuinely felt. Feelings sometimes have no foundation.

Before you make up your minds, folks, please first look to see if there are any facts -- there haven't been any presented here, yet.
post #39 of 56
It sounds like the guy who made is not even considering that fact that his treats have killed dogs. He should consider changing something so it is not so hard and easier to digest. I know my Limerick would never eat it if I got it for him, but because of this story I will never feed it to my pets.
post #40 of 56
Can someone please help clarify some of this for me? Thanks

I have two packages of Greenies I bought from the vet a couple of months ago, one for cats and one for dogs, and have been feeding them occasionally. (I've given the cats a few every week or so, and the dogs one every couple of weeks.)

Am I correct in my understanding that it's the cellulose in the Canine Greenies that's the problem for the dog Greenies and makes them indegistible according to that site's tests?

While my package of dog Greenies lists cellulose as the 4th ingredient, my package of Greenies for cats does not include cellulose in the ingredients list.

This is copied from the package of salmon flavored Feline Greenies treats:

Feeding instructions: Feed as a treat to your cat up to 6 pieces give 3 times per day (18 max). Feline Greenies is formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by AAFCO cat food Nutrient Profile for maintenance of adult cats.

Feline Greenies Ingredients:
Chicken meal, ground rice, ground wheat, corn gluten meal, oat fiber, poultry fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), poultry digest (source of natural liver flavor), salmon meal, brewers dried yeast, ground flaxseed, calcium carbonate, salt, potassium chloride, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, manganese proteinate, ferrous sulfate, sodium selenite, cobalt carbonate, ethylenediamine dihydriodide, Vitamin A, Vitamin D3, Vitamin B2, Vitamin B12, biotin, niacin, D-calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, folic acid, pyridoxine hydrochloride, menadione sodium bisulfite, taurine, chlorophyll, natural flavors, rosemary extract


Is there anything in the list of Feline Greenies ingredients that looks like it would make them indigestible? The cat treats package does not contain any warnings about gulping, as the dog treats package does.


As for the Canine Greenies, I went with the size appropriate for the larger of my two dogs, and since neither dog is a gulper, I haven't had any problems, but I am concerned about it now. There are warnings on the box about observing your dog to make sure the product is adequately chewed. But if they're totally indigestible and unsafe even if properly chewed, why are these sold in vet's offices and listed as vet-approved ?

From the Canine Greenies label:

Canine Greenies ingredients:
Processed wheat gluten, glycerin, natural flavor, powdered cellulose, monosodium phosphate, monoglycerides of edible fatty acids, magnesium stearate and chlorophyll. Not artificial coloring added, no synthetic preservatives and no plastics or other inert ingredients.

To soften Greenies - wrap in a moistened paper towel and microwave for 10 to 12 seconds.

Feeding Directions: Greenies are recommended for dogs over 6 months of age and over 5 pounds. (Use Greenies Lil Bits for toy breeds, puppies and dogs known to gulp). Feed the correct size Greenies for your dog's weight 1-2 times daily as a treat. Greenies are not intended to be complete and balanced and therefore should not constitute more than 25% of your dog's diet. A greenish color in the dog's stool is a normal and harmless result of consuming chlorohyll. As with any treat, always offer water after feeding. If obesity is a concern, reduce food intake.

Caution: As with any edible product monitor your dog to ensure the treat is adequately chewed. Gulping any item can be harmful or even fatal to a dog.


I'm not sure what to think about all this

*edited for typos and to highlight ingredients copied from my packages of Greenies.*
post #41 of 56
Well, finding ingredients lists for Greenies is nigh on impossible online. But since this is turning into a he-said-she-said which is totally unproductive as neither will be able to convince the other.

Here's the bit I found for the ingredients for Feline Greenies (from Petsmart's website, as the Greenies website says nothing about the ingredients):

Quote:
Main ingredients of each flavor are chicken meal, ground rice, ground wheat, corn gluten meal, and oat fiber. Also included is taurine, folic acid, rosemary extract, vitamins A, B2, B12, D3, and E.
The Canine Greenies do list the top 10 ingredients:

Quote:
Processed Wheat Gluten
Glycerin
Natural Flavor
Powdered Cellulose
Monosodium Phosphate
Monoglycerides of Edible Fatty Acids
Magnesium Stearate
Chlorophyll
And the description of the product:

Quote:
Greenies are tasty, nutritious dog treats that contribute to your pet's good health. The chews are high in protein, help satisfy your dog's natural urge to chew and they're formulated with natural chlorophyll to freshen breath. The chewing action helps clean teeth, remove plaque, control dental tartar, strengthen gums, and diminish oral bacteria.

Some chew products contain other inert materials which are not digestible. All ingredients in Greenies are highly digestible and, except for the palatability enhancer, are used in human food products. Contains no artificial coloring, no synthetic preservatives, and no plastics or other inert ingredients.
Well, ok so we know that while the ingredients may be digestible, the formula and process of making Greenies renders them undigestible.

Based on this...I have no idea because there isn't enough information about the Feline Greenies to tell. But from the description of the Canine Greenies, which I assume is directly from the manufacturer, it's pretty clear that they are less than truthful about the digestibility of their product. And based on that, I'll err on the side of caution and choose another tartar control treat for my cats.
post #42 of 56
I find it interesting the things that have been said in this thread. Let me say right off, that I'm not defending Greenies when I say this.

There is not a SINGLE dog chew that's been mentioned in this thread that someone didn't comment to having an issue with (be it choking, not digesting, breaking teeth etc.) So to everyone who's now NOT feeding greenies based on this information, what ARE you giving as an alternative? And are you aware that there are risks with ANYTHING you put in your dogs mouth (for goodness sake, dogs have choked to death on KIBBLE). Dogs NEED to be supervised when given a chew. If dogs are gulpers, they need to be slowed down when they eat (put rocks in their food bowl if you have to!) There isn't a single thing that you can just throw your dog and walk away and be 100% guaranteed that your dog will be alive when you walk back.

As for feline greenies, a simple comparison of the two products reveals that they are fundamentally different products. The canine Greenies are formulated as a dog chew for dental health, the ingredients are not that of a food product. The feline ones are treats, they're FOOD. They look and smell and feel completley different. I wouldn't be concerned about them. This statement alone: "Feline Greenies is formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by AAFCO cat food Nutrient Profile for maintenance of adult cats" (which does not appear on the dog product) is evidence. Am I being over-confident? Or is everyone over-reacting a little bit? I don't know.
post #43 of 56
Heidi, I don't know if you saw it but I posted the complete ingredients of both cat & dog formulas from my packages so people could read them and maybe give input.

The formulas for canine & feline are very different, so I'm hoping to get input about the Feline Greenies from some of the people here who are more knowledgeable about ingredients than I am - from what I've read it looks like the only reported problems have been with the canine ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vanillasugar
If dogs are gulpers, they need to be slowed down when they eat (put rocks in their food bowl if you have to!)
A little OT, but when I first got my dog from the shelter she inhaled her food, and that's exactly what I had to do - I put a big rock in the middle of her bowl so she had to slow down to eat around it. Poor thing, she was so thin - they'd had her in a kennel with a very bossy dog who pushed her away from her bowl and took all her food.
post #44 of 56
I think the jury is still out as far as the safety of Feline Greenies is concerned, and the jury may not have enough information anyway. BUT it does seem that the manufacturer may have been less than totally truthful about the safety of the canine product. That alone makes me totally uninterested in feeding any of their products to any animal for whose care I am responsible.

It doesn't mean that every other manufacturer is lily-white in that regard, nor does it mean that Feline Greenies are not just fine. But I can only operate on the information I have, and the information I have about Greenies, in general, leads me to lose confidence in the integrity of the manufacturer. There are too many other products out there whose integrity has not been brought into question, for me to buy one which has. It's that simple.
post #45 of 56
ummm....well even tho my cats LOVE the feline Greenies....I myself am going to aire on the side of caution.....I just got rid of them all.....


Anyone got any suggestions on a tasty SAFE cat treat....lol.....

Tho my cats get a mix....temptations, freeze dried shrimp, and cat nip treats....i used to have greenies in that mix....but nooooo more.....
post #46 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedokitties
Heidi, I don't know if you saw it but I posted the complete ingredients of both cat & dog formulas from my packages so people could read them and maybe give input.
We were typing and posting at the same time. Thank you for posting that information from the packages. The information is not, as far as I can find, available online.
post #47 of 56
Thread Starter 
I also err on the side of caution. If there is even a few documented cases of something being deemed unsafe and even fatal, I think the rational thing to do is steer clear of it.

As Pat said, its not a matter of supervision with chew toys...Its digestability!
You cannot supervise pieces of matter obstructing the intestines over time and you cannot always intervene when an animal, especially a dog is choking....If anyone hasn't ever tried to step in and assist a panicked dog, you have no idea how difficult and even dangerous it can be...

Why would anyone risk it when there are safe alternatives?

I tend to give all-natural treats that either crumble to the cats (usually real cooked meat) or go with the all-natural alternative for dogs which are raw bones (much safer and less expensive than rawhide in any form).
post #48 of 56
I don't have any problem with erring on the side of caution, as several posters in this thread have said. Just keep in mind you're being cautious because you DON'T KNOW, not because you do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rapunzel47
....the jury may not have enough information anyway.


As far as the manufacturer being "less than truthful" well can't that be said of almost any company? They are only going to present their products in the best possible light. If there's no conclusive fact-based evidence of a product flaw, you don't suppose they're going to acknowledge it? Of course not.

Two more comments, and then I'm done with this topic:

1) in light of several statements by admin in the past that unsubstantiated product-bashing is frowned on here, I find the existing of this whole thread rather puzzling.

2) everybody keep in mind that this thread is quite appropriately placed in the IMO forum....the forum for opinion, and that's exactly what all this is.
post #49 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster
I don't have any problem with erring on the side of caution, as several posters in this thread have said. Just keep in mind you're being cautious because you DON'T KNOW, not because you do.
Yes, I don't know if eating chicken left out on the counter for several hours will kill me or make me violently ill either. But I still don't eat it.
The reason being is that there have been documented cases of salmonella. And to me, well..that doesn't sound fun. And its ok, because I can simply indulge in something perhaps less suspicious.

Quote:
1) in light of several statements by admin in the past that unsubstantiated product-bashing is frowned on here, I find the existing of this whole thread rather puzzling.
The reason this thread exists is that its not opinion that some dogs have had some terrible troubles and/or died due to this product.
I can't say for sure if this extends to their product for felines as I haven't done as much research as other people have in this thread.
Thus, its not unsubstantiated product bashing per se.
post #50 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanillasugar
I find it interesting the things that have been said in this thread. Let me say right off, that I'm not defending Greenies when I say this.

There is not a SINGLE dog chew that's been mentioned in this thread that someone didn't comment to having an issue with (be it choking, not digesting, breaking teeth etc.) So to everyone who's now NOT feeding greenies based on this information, what ARE you giving as an alternative? And are you aware that there are risks with ANYTHING you put in your dogs mouth (for goodness sake, dogs have choked to death on KIBBLE). Dogs NEED to be supervised when given a chew. If dogs are gulpers, they need to be slowed down when they eat (put rocks in their food bowl if you have to!) There isn't a single thing that you can just throw your dog and walk away and be 100% guaranteed that your dog will be alive when you walk back.

As for feline greenies, a simple comparison of the two products reveals that they are fundamentally different products. The canine Greenies are formulated as a dog chew for dental health, the ingredients are not that of a food product. The feline ones are treats, they're FOOD. They look and smell and feel completley different. I wouldn't be concerned about them. This statement alone: "Feline Greenies is formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by AAFCO cat food Nutrient Profile for maintenance of adult cats" (which does not appear on the dog product) is evidence. Am I being over-confident? Or is everyone over-reacting a little bit? I don't know.

I am with you. I would LOVE to see a 100% safe alternative......but thats like the pot at the end of the rainbow.
post #51 of 56
LOL Heidi, I should have realized that!

I've discovered there's a lot of stuff about this all over the Internet, from local news attention-grabber scare stories to articles that read as though they were written by the manufacturer, and everything in between.

These seemed to be the most impartial, IMO:

Be careful with all dog treats, not just Greenies This news article interviews both veterinarians and the owner of an affected dog.

From an Internet veterinarian site:Greenies... Are They Safe For Dogs?
(the product that caused the problem in this article was a Nylabone Healthy Edible - a product I've also fed my dogs before)

From an animal hospital's web site:Greenie Warning Alert

Quote:We are still recommending the feline form of Greenies and feel this is a safe product, as its composition is totally different.

That makes me feel better about letting the cats finish the rest of the bag I bought them for Christmas.

Interestingly, the x-ray shows a whole, unchewed, undigested canine Greenie inside the dog.


From a veterinary pet health info site:Greenies


Our dogs have the typical canine drive to chew, but aren't interested in nonedible chew toys - if that's all that's available to them, they'd rather chew on the black walnuts and sticks our trees drop. Is that safer than chewing on 'edible' chews? or rawhides?
post #52 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedokitties

Our dogs have the typical canine drive to chew, but aren't interested in nonedible chew toys - if that's all that's available to them, they'd rather chew on the black walnuts and sticks our trees drop. Is that safer than chewing on 'edible' chews? or rawhides?
I understand your problem but the answer to me would be neither.
I wouldn't allow them to chew on things outside that may harm them either.

Just as I don't allow my cats to chew on the rare elastic band that ends up on the floor but that they will pounce on if given the chance, I wouldn't allow my dog to gnaw on sticks or other items outside that may be harmful.

But you are right...Dogs need to chew but as I have stated previous in this thread, the safer alternative to fake bones like rawhide is the REAL thing
Ie, Real Raw Bones. They don't put your dog at a higher risk like rawhide does and your dog will like them better and will fulfill his need to chew (for much longer than any kind of rawhide or greenie will as well).

Just my two cents.
post #53 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loveysmummy
I understand your problem but the answer to me would be neither.
I wouldn't allow them to chew on things outside that may harm them either.

Just as I don't allow my cats to chew on the rare elastic band that ends up on the floor but that they will pounce on if given the chance, I wouldn't allow my dog to gnaw on sticks or other items outside that may be harmful.

But you are right...Dogs need to chew but as I have stated previous in this thread, the safer alternative to fake bones like rawhide is the REAL thing
Ie, Real Raw Bones. They don't put your dog at a higher risk like rawhide does and your dog will like them better and will fulfill his need to chew (for much longer than any kind of rawhide or greenie will as well).

Just my two cents.
I understand what you're saying, but controlling the environment in the yard (short of chopping down our trees and our neighbor's trees, and fencing out squirrels) is totally different from controlling the environment in the house. I don't think it would be fair to the dogs to deny them the frequent unsupervised access to the yard they now enjoy, so I guess for us the yard access is a balance of risk vs. benefit.

I actually used to give them raw bones, but stopped doing that after Petey broke a molar on one.

*edit* got a little OT, sorry
post #54 of 56
I used to give Apollo rawhides until I found out that they can cause blockages. He hasn't had one in a long time. We replaced the rawhides with a kong, and he enjoys the kong more.

And I've never fed Greenies... I don't know about anyone else, but they look like hard green plastic to me.
post #55 of 56
Slightly off topic.... But does anyone feel there is anything wrong with Bully Sticks (all natural, beef tendons) or pig ears even? I stick with the Bully Sticks for Brody because he absolutely loves them.
post #56 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by squirtle
Slightly off topic.... But does anyone feel there is anything wrong with Bully Sticks (all natural, beef tendons) or pig ears even? I stick with the Bully Sticks for Brody because he absolutely loves them.
I have had many many vets say no pig ears... bullys are like rawhide my dog get s them but I do buy a bigger one than her size dictates and I suppervise... my vet s have always said be causious and careful with a pup and make sure to supervise an adult ..
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