Renovia, you'll have to get your own Carmelo!
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Our EXOTIC furbabies
- Thread starter amberthe bobcat
- Start Date
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #282
I haven't weighed him in more than a month. The last time I did, he was 93 pounds, so I am sure he is at or over 100 pounds now.Originally Posted by sharky
Wow magnificiant animals... I am a bit realived that the cheetahs and lions are not owning a house... How big is Caremelo now??
Don't worry, there is plenty of him to go around
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #283
Hello everyone. No, at the moment, I am not posting any new pictures. I have some, but I have some very important news that I have to tell everyone and for me, this is the most difficult thing I had to deal with in a very long time.
I guess I should do a little history here, for anyone new to this thread. I have been an exotic cat owner now for a little over 3 years. In this time, I have learned a great deal on responsible exotic feline care and about the laws and people who, either make it very difficult to own these wonderful cats or try to take away every right we have to do so. Now, don't get me wrong. I support fair regulations that support my right to own and live witht these cats as well as protect the public from irresponsible people.
Before Amber, our very first bobcat, came into our lives, I did a lot of research on the subject. In my state, it is leagl to own such an animal with the proper permit/license from the state. It was also leagl for me to own one in the county that I lived in at the time. However, when I checked my local laws in the city that I lived in at that time, I found out they had an ordinance agaisnt it. However, after reading this ordinance, the way it was written actually allowed me to own one, do to the poor wording of this oridance. So, I decided to bring home our very first bobcat. A year went by, I learned more and more and I was contacted by someone in another state who needed to quickly find a new home for their bobcat kitten. They were allowed to own one, but they went about it the wrong way and did not have the proper permits. (They needed the permits BEFORE the cat came into the state. They were aware of this, but did not follow my advice) So, they were at risk of losing this bobcat kitten. So my wife and I cameto the rescue and brought home our second bobcat kitten bundle of joy. You all know him as Boris.
About a half a year after Boris came to live with us, I knew I would need to move out of the city, somehwere where it was a little more open and had no ordinance agaisnt bobcat ownership, no matter how it was worded. So, my wife and I moved to the next county away. Before this move however, I called every place that I was looking, to check their rules on exotic animal ownership. When I called the township I live in now, no one ever returend my phone calls, no matter how many times I called. I must point out, that according to my state law, townships can not pass ordinances. The city I used to live in, had a population of approx 60,000. The county I now live in, has a population of about 93,000 and only has 1 small city in the whole county. There are a few small villages and the rest is township, made up of a lot of farm land.
Well, after we moved here, I was contatced once agin, by a lady in New York state who needed to find a home for an adult 5 year old male bobcat and wanted to know if I could take him in. Well, since he was an adult and so was Amber, I knew darn well, that Amber would not easily accept a new adult bobcat into her home. A kitten yes, but not an adult male. However, this bobcat had lived outside all it's life, so I knew I could build him an outdoor enclosure. But before I did this, I again wanted to make sure there was no laws preventing me from doing so. I called the township hall and left messages, no one called me back. So, I figured I had no problems. So, we decided to bring this rescue bobcat into our lives. You all know him as Nakoma. As I was going through all the legal state paperwork, I decided to call the township once again. Wow, I was finally able to speak with a person.(The township hall is open only 1 night a week for 2 hours!!) She looked up the laws and to my horror, I found out they had a ZONING ordiance against it. So, this was new to me. Townships can not pass ordinances, yet they can still pass zoning laws. After a few months of speaking with township officials they said, we really don't care, as long as there are no complaints. So with that, we brought Nakoma home.
Now, lets go foward a few more months. This is when we decided to bring home our cougar, whom you all know as Carmelo. Now, I knew with the way the zoning law was written, I would not be able to keep a full grown cougar here. So, I had been making plans to eventaully relocate AGAIN. In the mean time, once Carmelo reached a ceratin size, he would go to live at our friends facility, until I relocate to an area with no zoning what so ever. (As long as it is 5 acres or more, I will be ok).
Now, here comes the bad news. Back in May, I was working on the enclosure, when someone's dog came into our yard. The lady who owned him came by to get her dog, but saw Carmelo in the enclosure with me. She really didn't say much, got her dog and left. A month or so later, some kids stopped by to see Carmelo when I wasn't home, but my wife was. Even though we did not allow them to come near the enclosure, they saw our cougar and the rest is history. Kids talk and a cougar turned into a LION!! Now, these kids don't live in our township either. However, their mother spoke with someone in our township. The township trustees read their zoning and saw that this was not allowed. (It should be noted, that the same people who said it was ok, are no longer working with the township. They either quit or were voted out). So, as of a few days ago, I got a notice that told me that I have 30 days to remove the cougar and bobcat (Nakoma). They do NOT know about Amber and Boris, so they are safe for now. I spoke with the zoning inspector, to see if i could get a variance or an extension. I told him that I was planning to relocate. He spoke with the trustees and they said NO to a variance. However, they can not do this. I have the right to submit an application for a variance and it must be heard before the township meeting. I also have the right to an appeal. Now, are original plan was to move Carmelo to our friends facilty, once he reached 100 pounds, until we found a new place with more land. However, EVERYONE who lives close by us LOVES our cats. So, I figured there would be no problem and decided to keep Carmelo here until we moved. Well, all it took was this one woman and her STRAY dog. It should be noted here. This woman with her loose dog was in VIOLATION of STATE LAW!! I am in NO violation of any state or county laws. I wanted the prior township officials to put it in writting that they had no problem with my cats, but they never did. They just didn't care, but the new officials do. I guess the AR (Animal Rights) people got to them too. So, I am feeling quite sick right now. I am going to speak with each trustee and invite them here to see for themselves, Nakoma's secure enclosure. I want them to see that Nakoma, who weighs about 45 pounds, is no more a threat to anyone, than the dogs who RUN FREE in this area. I also want to point out, that this cat is native to my state and is an endagered protected species. If a "wild" bobcat was spotted in anyones yard, there is nothing anyone could do, unless the animal was sick or injured. I want them to do 1 or 2 things. I will relocate Caremlo, as originally planned, until I can move. However, i want them to grant me a variacne for Nakoma or at least give me an extension for 1 year to see if I can move by then. When the trustees come by, Amber and Boris will not be here. I should not have a probelm with them anyhow, they live mainly inside, but do like to go outside in the enclosure at night. This is ok, because no one can see them here at night. It is to dark and there is no lighting. It will be hard for me to move Carmelo, but we can see him any time we want. Our friend lives about 2 hours away and we go there to help them with their faciltiy as it is.
So, this is what has been going on. I cannot tell you what this is doing to me. It is not right that just a few people (the trustees) think they can take anyones rights away like this. I do not live in a city or village. I should be able to keep my cats here. It is my right as a free American. Well, we once were free, but we are losing that freedom every day and it just makes me sick
I guess I should do a little history here, for anyone new to this thread. I have been an exotic cat owner now for a little over 3 years. In this time, I have learned a great deal on responsible exotic feline care and about the laws and people who, either make it very difficult to own these wonderful cats or try to take away every right we have to do so. Now, don't get me wrong. I support fair regulations that support my right to own and live witht these cats as well as protect the public from irresponsible people.
Before Amber, our very first bobcat, came into our lives, I did a lot of research on the subject. In my state, it is leagl to own such an animal with the proper permit/license from the state. It was also leagl for me to own one in the county that I lived in at the time. However, when I checked my local laws in the city that I lived in at that time, I found out they had an ordinance agaisnt it. However, after reading this ordinance, the way it was written actually allowed me to own one, do to the poor wording of this oridance. So, I decided to bring home our very first bobcat. A year went by, I learned more and more and I was contacted by someone in another state who needed to quickly find a new home for their bobcat kitten. They were allowed to own one, but they went about it the wrong way and did not have the proper permits. (They needed the permits BEFORE the cat came into the state. They were aware of this, but did not follow my advice) So, they were at risk of losing this bobcat kitten. So my wife and I cameto the rescue and brought home our second bobcat kitten bundle of joy. You all know him as Boris.
About a half a year after Boris came to live with us, I knew I would need to move out of the city, somehwere where it was a little more open and had no ordinance agaisnt bobcat ownership, no matter how it was worded. So, my wife and I moved to the next county away. Before this move however, I called every place that I was looking, to check their rules on exotic animal ownership. When I called the township I live in now, no one ever returend my phone calls, no matter how many times I called. I must point out, that according to my state law, townships can not pass ordinances. The city I used to live in, had a population of approx 60,000. The county I now live in, has a population of about 93,000 and only has 1 small city in the whole county. There are a few small villages and the rest is township, made up of a lot of farm land.
Well, after we moved here, I was contatced once agin, by a lady in New York state who needed to find a home for an adult 5 year old male bobcat and wanted to know if I could take him in. Well, since he was an adult and so was Amber, I knew darn well, that Amber would not easily accept a new adult bobcat into her home. A kitten yes, but not an adult male. However, this bobcat had lived outside all it's life, so I knew I could build him an outdoor enclosure. But before I did this, I again wanted to make sure there was no laws preventing me from doing so. I called the township hall and left messages, no one called me back. So, I figured I had no problems. So, we decided to bring this rescue bobcat into our lives. You all know him as Nakoma. As I was going through all the legal state paperwork, I decided to call the township once again. Wow, I was finally able to speak with a person.(The township hall is open only 1 night a week for 2 hours!!) She looked up the laws and to my horror, I found out they had a ZONING ordiance against it. So, this was new to me. Townships can not pass ordinances, yet they can still pass zoning laws. After a few months of speaking with township officials they said, we really don't care, as long as there are no complaints. So with that, we brought Nakoma home.
Now, lets go foward a few more months. This is when we decided to bring home our cougar, whom you all know as Carmelo. Now, I knew with the way the zoning law was written, I would not be able to keep a full grown cougar here. So, I had been making plans to eventaully relocate AGAIN. In the mean time, once Carmelo reached a ceratin size, he would go to live at our friends facility, until I relocate to an area with no zoning what so ever. (As long as it is 5 acres or more, I will be ok).
Now, here comes the bad news. Back in May, I was working on the enclosure, when someone's dog came into our yard. The lady who owned him came by to get her dog, but saw Carmelo in the enclosure with me. She really didn't say much, got her dog and left. A month or so later, some kids stopped by to see Carmelo when I wasn't home, but my wife was. Even though we did not allow them to come near the enclosure, they saw our cougar and the rest is history. Kids talk and a cougar turned into a LION!! Now, these kids don't live in our township either. However, their mother spoke with someone in our township. The township trustees read their zoning and saw that this was not allowed. (It should be noted, that the same people who said it was ok, are no longer working with the township. They either quit or were voted out). So, as of a few days ago, I got a notice that told me that I have 30 days to remove the cougar and bobcat (Nakoma). They do NOT know about Amber and Boris, so they are safe for now. I spoke with the zoning inspector, to see if i could get a variance or an extension. I told him that I was planning to relocate. He spoke with the trustees and they said NO to a variance. However, they can not do this. I have the right to submit an application for a variance and it must be heard before the township meeting. I also have the right to an appeal. Now, are original plan was to move Carmelo to our friends facilty, once he reached 100 pounds, until we found a new place with more land. However, EVERYONE who lives close by us LOVES our cats. So, I figured there would be no problem and decided to keep Carmelo here until we moved. Well, all it took was this one woman and her STRAY dog. It should be noted here. This woman with her loose dog was in VIOLATION of STATE LAW!! I am in NO violation of any state or county laws. I wanted the prior township officials to put it in writting that they had no problem with my cats, but they never did. They just didn't care, but the new officials do. I guess the AR (Animal Rights) people got to them too. So, I am feeling quite sick right now. I am going to speak with each trustee and invite them here to see for themselves, Nakoma's secure enclosure. I want them to see that Nakoma, who weighs about 45 pounds, is no more a threat to anyone, than the dogs who RUN FREE in this area. I also want to point out, that this cat is native to my state and is an endagered protected species. If a "wild" bobcat was spotted in anyones yard, there is nothing anyone could do, unless the animal was sick or injured. I want them to do 1 or 2 things. I will relocate Caremlo, as originally planned, until I can move. However, i want them to grant me a variacne for Nakoma or at least give me an extension for 1 year to see if I can move by then. When the trustees come by, Amber and Boris will not be here. I should not have a probelm with them anyhow, they live mainly inside, but do like to go outside in the enclosure at night. This is ok, because no one can see them here at night. It is to dark and there is no lighting. It will be hard for me to move Carmelo, but we can see him any time we want. Our friend lives about 2 hours away and we go there to help them with their faciltiy as it is.
So, this is what has been going on. I cannot tell you what this is doing to me. It is not right that just a few people (the trustees) think they can take anyones rights away like this. I do not live in a city or village. I should be able to keep my cats here. It is my right as a free American. Well, we once were free, but we are losing that freedom every day and it just makes me sick
John, I'm very sorry to hear about this. It sounds like you're already doing everything you can so just know that you, your wife, and your beautiful animals are in my thoughts. I wish you the best of luck.
Headbutts
and hugs
and finger crossing
that you can get this worked out.
Sigh, one "stoopid" person and everyone is up in arms.
Oh, and hug all the kitties you can for me.
Sigh, one "stoopid" person and everyone is up in arms.
Oh, and hug all the kitties you can for me.
John, I am really sorry to hear about this. The people who are making the rules are obviously just doing what's "easiest" for them without thinking it through. I am sure that if any of them took the time to see your set up they would understand that your tribe of animals are a lot safer and happier than a lot of animals out there!
It should be on a case by case basis, and I truly am disgusted at the way they are treating you.
Can we petition them to say as cat owners and exotic enthusiasts we believe you are a responsible exotic owner, and should be allowed to keep them?
It should be on a case by case basis, and I truly am disgusted at the way they are treating you.
Can we petition them to say as cat owners and exotic enthusiasts we believe you are a responsible exotic owner, and should be allowed to keep them?
John, I read this earlier, when I didn't have time to think about a response. I have time now, but I just don't have words. Know that I'll be thinking about you and your wonderful critters, and following any and all updates you give us, avidly. I wish there were a way we could have some influence on this situation. I hope your demonstration to the trustees has the desired effect.
Scritches for all of your beauties.
I am so sorry to hear this, I do hope that there is a good outcome to this story.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #289
Thank you all for the kind words and well wishes
I have always stated that education is the key. The wording of this zoning law is no different from state bans that I have seen. It is nothing more than a copy law, that had no thought put into it. I do believe, that once the trustees see the enclosure and see a bobcat for themselves, they may realize just how dumb this is. Yes, a bobcat is larger than a domestic cat, but at 40-50 pounds tops, this makes him no larger than some of the largest dogs I have seen around here. In fact, someone has a dog that must weigh well over 150-180 pounds and it runs loose from time to time. It has approached my wife and I when we have been out taking a walk. It has never been mean, but still, if they are worried about someone being injured by a bobcat, ANY animal can pose some danger. In fact, we had a 5 year old boy who lives in this county, who was bitten in the face by a GOLDEN RETRIEVER this past spring. If someone, especially kids, were to walk up our drive, they are at more risk of being bitten by a neighbors dog, who is tied up outside 24/7 without shelter, in their front yard!! As for Carmelo, it was planned when we got him, that once he was an adult, that he would live at our friends sanctuary, until we moved again. I used to go there quite a lot before we got Carmelo, but once he got older, we can't leave him home alone for long periods of time. 8 hours is ok however. I can go visit and play with Carmelo any time I want and also visit other cougars, lynxes and bobcats as well. But, my bobcats stay here, I will fight that long and hard. If the trustees will not budge, then I will not do anything and let my case be heard in a court of law. The trustees will not order me to do anything. I will let a judge make that decision. I feel if a judge hears this case as well, especially once I comply with moving Carmelo, he/she may agree, that this is silly and a waste of time. I hope anyway. In fact, all I am asking is just give me a year to move. I have found many properties, that have the acreage that I want and a cost cheaper than what I payed here. However, they would add more drive time to work. It takes me about 40 minutes as it is, to drive 38 miles to work. However, as long as it takes me less than an hour, it is worth it to be able to live with these cats. As I have stated many times, it takes a lot to live with these babies. There have been a few times now, during these past few days, that I have thought, is it worth it? Should I just give up all my exotics? With possible new bad state laws and or bans being introduced, do I need the hassle? Well, the thought of being able to just go anywhere or do anything I like, without the worry of not being away from home too long or who can watch my exotics, sounds very nice. Yes, I would still have my domestics, I am a cat lover and no one will take that away from me. But, when you get that headbutt from a bobcat, when they jump on my back to just lay down and relax or when I get woken up in the morning by a bobcat peeing on ME, because I am not getting up early enough to feed them. How about a big purring cougar giving me hugs, licks on the head, face, arms and legs or to see and hear him chirp at you, with a look of love in those beautiful eyes. To listen to bobcat chatter and to have Amber smack me in the face, when I disturb her when SHE tries to get some sleep. Yes, you give up a lot of your free time for them, but what I get back from them is PRICELESS!! Is it worth giving up a a lot of my free time? Is it worth the hassle? I think all of you know what the answer is. You are all cat lovers. You may not have a bobcat or a big silly cougar, but you still live with cats and you know the answer is YES, it IS worth it!! Yes, it is going to be hard not having Carmelo in our home with us. But, even when and if I move, if he lives with us, he will need to be in an outdoor enclosure. It has come to that time in his life whether there was a law or not. We let him live in our home with us as long as possible. This forms the strong bond that will stay with him for the rest of his life, even when he is outside. He is now over 100 pounds and acts just like a normal house cat. But you know darn well, that every cat has those times when they get really goofy and crazy and go running around the house like crazy. Yep, Carmelo and the bobcats do the same thing. It is really silly, when you hear this rumble and here comes this big cougar dashing through the living room, with that 3 foot tail hitting everything.
So, I will keep you posted as to what goes on. If I hire an attorney, that I will do if the trustees don't budge, this can go on for a long time and I may be able to relocate before any decision is made in court. Can you guys help? Hmmm, I wonder what the trustees would think, if they got bombarded with phone calls from all over the country and from folks who live outside the USA as well
I will let you know, this may just work. But, we will wait until after I invite them over here, to try and convince them about the bobcats and after Carmelo is moved to our friends facility. That way, they will see I did comply with part of their concern. Once again, I thank you all for your support
So, I will keep you posted as to what goes on. If I hire an attorney, that I will do if the trustees don't budge, this can go on for a long time and I may be able to relocate before any decision is made in court. Can you guys help? Hmmm, I wonder what the trustees would think, if they got bombarded with phone calls from all over the country and from folks who live outside the USA as well
John, you have my support! As far as I'm concerned this is fighting for your children.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #292
Thank you very much. I will be sure to keep everyone informed.Originally Posted by sarahp
You put the word out that you need our help, and we WILL email, write, call and do whatever we can. If nothing else we can make them so sick of hearing from us, it will be easier to just let you keep them
Yes, they are my children
So beautiful, I loveeeeeee big Cats. I have a question, how much meat do your 4 big cats eat a day/week? (has to be a lot I bet, do you own a farm and chop up cows and other animals for them to eat?
)!
I think we have cats as Amber, Boris and Nakoma down here in Sweden (Skåne), seen one running near the beach in the forests, no Carmelo though, he's such a beautiful creature
I think we have cats as Amber, Boris and Nakoma down here in Sweden (Skåne), seen one running near the beach in the forests, no Carmelo though, he's such a beautiful creature
good luck John..i really hope it works out. I hate it when mindless laws are passed, and people make judgements without even checking things out firsthand.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #295
Well, to make things a little better, I have some pictures
However, no new ones of Amber....sorry pretty girl. My digital camera's card is filled and I ran out of CD's to transfer the pictures too. I will post some of Amber soon.
Here is handsome Nakoma
Just look at that face, a real danger to society. Yeah right
My boy Boris
Boris, you are very handsome too my boy
Here is handsome Nakoma
Just look at that face, a real danger to society. Yeah right
My boy Boris
Boris, you are very handsome too my boy
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #296
Last but not least, the BIG handsome boy Carmelo.
Hello township trustees. This is what Carmelo thinks of your stupid, useless zoning resolution
Hello township trustees. This is what Carmelo thinks of your stupid, useless zoning resolution
Originally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat
Last but not least, the BIG handsome boy Carmelo.
Hello township trustees. This is what Carmelo thinks of your stupid, useless zoning resolution
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #298
I don't think I can say how I feel about the whole issueOriginally Posted by katiemae1277
that's good! I'm so sorry to hear of your troubles, John, I hope that a resolution can be reached while you search for a new house. Beautiful darlings as always
oh, trust me, no words are necessary, just reading your other posts about it I could imagine the steam coming out of your earsOriginally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat
I don't think I can say how I feel about the whole issue
