Question about my Siamese girls color

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

In a lot of the siamese articles I've read there were 2 types of siamese in Siam - the street siamese and the temple siamese. The street ones were more of the "old fashioned/applehead" type and the temple ones were more refined. Tho I suspect not as extreme as the ones in show today

There was an obvious difference. The temple ones were more highly prized and very hard to get out of Siam.

So the first siamese that were brought to Europe were the more common, applehead ones who's coats got really dark with age. Those were the ones that were shown and kept as pets - it was the "norm". Little by little, some of the more refined temple siamese made their way out of Siam and into the gene pool.

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I would like links to these articles. Where were their sources referenced to? Just because its on the internet doesn't make it true.
It is my understanding that these were tales invented by breeders to romanticized and legitimize their cats and that all the early cats from Siam came from their street markets and were sold for rodent control. When the merchants learned of the romantic stories told by westerners and that they were being shown and valued in the thousands of dollars (A huge amount in the early 20th century. I get this value from a cat book published in 1900 by Winslow) they began using the stories to sell more cats to rich westerners who were vacationing. Showing cats was a very stylish pastime of the rich victorian lady. The husband bred horses and the Lady dabbled in Cats.

This site also has lots of photos of early Siamese. To know what they looked like you really need to look at the Siamese that are before World War II, Pre 1940's.
http://www.craigmcfeely.force9.co.uk...histsiam1.html

This site also has lots of photos of early Siamese. To know what they looked like you really need to look at the Siamese that are before World War II, Pre 1940's.
http://www.craigmcfeely.force9.co.uk...histsiam1.html

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Those photos look exactly like my Kotton (cept she is fatter! <blushing>)

Sorry for the picture overload!

WHAT overload! The last photo is SOOOOOOO dear!

My Simon is still a snowshoe boy...white belly and all four paws, with white in his face where the mask (dark, dark brown) isn't. His body is getting really lovely dark brown, with darker patches on his sides and tail. But he's not show or anything, just my boy. I'm guessing he's a chocolate point snowshoe, but I don't know for sure. he was completely cream (except for his nose, which has always been black) when I got him, no points or anything.

And for those who've posted photos, thanks. nothing like looking at a gorgeous cat, is there?

best-
Michele

Think about it - if the temple cats were not more refined then the street type siamese - you couldn't get the more "oriental" type of body. The siamese would still be more rounded. So there had to be two body types to produce the cats of today.

If you only had rounded bodies, you certainly can't get "long tubular" bodies. The stories might be somewhat exaggerated but there were two types of siamese in Siam.

Those that breed the old-fashioned type, without adding any other refined siamese in their gene pool, will get consistant round body and head.

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Think about it - if the temple cats were not more refined then the street type Siamese - you couldn't get the more "oriental" type of body. The Siamese would still be more rounded. So there had to be two body types to produce the cats of today.

If you only had rounded bodies, you certainly can't get "long tubular" bodies. The stories might be somewhat exaggerated but there were two types of Siamese in Siam.

Those that breed the old-fashioned type, without adding any other refined Siamese in their gene pool, will get consistent round body and head.

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I'm not disputing there were different body types within the cat population. I know that just from looking at a few litters, there are different body/ head types. Apples and modified wedges. I do believe that there were no Siamese that were of the type being shown today, say in the CFA, skinny tubes. I also believe that breeders selected the look they approved of and took their cats in the direction they wanted. It is very easy to shift a type within ones breeding career since you can have a new generation every two years. In a 20 to 40 year career that would be 10 to 20 generations and with a shift of type each generation a lot of change. One only needs to look at old breeders publications to know what was out there. When looking from year to year you can see where the changes happen and which cats had the most influence.

I am also pretty sure that the 19th and early 20th century breeders also had at times to cross breed and inbreed to keep the breed going in Europe as there just were not enough Siamese too breed with and WWI and WWII made breeding difficult, many breeders were having a hard time finding food for their cats and many fed horse meat if it was available. There is even an article post WWII that says a farmer fed their cats English sparrows.

It was really Fan-T-Cee's Tee Cee that had the biggest influence on the look "type" of the Siamese from 1954 forward to today. This cat is behind many of the typey cats being shown in America.

There are also letters published from breeders in the 1950's saying "Why are we/you changing the look of the Siamese breed?" so this is an on going difference of opinion in breeders with a rich history and it is doubtful that it will be resolved anytime soon. I think it would be interesting to have two classes of Show Siamese one typey and one historic, as they are doing in Europe, and let the public cat fanciers decide which they like. I wonder how much of an increase in show attendance would happen if this were to be allowed.----ah a nice fantasy. Any way back to the main question of this topic.

Originally Posted by MyBabies

When I got Kotton, close to 3 years ago, she was a seal point. THEN within a year she got darker in her body. Next year she got darker still and her seal points went to chocolate! NOW what is left of her cream is going dark - on her ruff and around her throat.

Will she end up Chocolate color or what? She is about 7 or 8!

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Heidi, I grew up with a Siamese and have had some as an adult also. All of mine seal points and all darkened, some worse then others. My girls now are from the same litter and one has a saddle as dark as her points the other is lighter but not as light as she was at 1 year. Breeders can choose cats whose ancestors show lighter coats in adults if they have the ability to actually see the ancestors Phenotype. They can also study the genotype in a pedigree to know what possibilities they have in color. Unfortunately most breeders only take photos of their cats when they are young because they do darken and they too love the pretty look of a light coat. When you look at Siamese breeders websites you rarely see an older cat shown in their photos. Breeders plan a look for their cats based on traits but what they can't control is how the polygenes (minor genes) will come together to effect the cats coat color. Every cats polygenes play differently---Your darker coat versus a lighter coat. And yes the Himalayan gene that is responsible for pointing is temperature sensitive and cats get darker as they age because like us humans their circulatory system ages and they get colder. If you have ever spent any time with the elderly you will know that even in hot weather they can feel cold because of their poor circulation. I have a book that has results from a temperature experiment that shows photo's but I can't remember which one it is. There are multiple factors that effect the color of Siamese. What other colors are there in the ancestors? Some colors work against each other. This article series goes into detail about these influences and how you can end up with a Seal point with chocolate looking paws.http://www.bcpl.net/~siamese/shaw.html

Yes there are some seal point Siamese that stay light all their lives and these tend to get the most attention and the most photos taken of them because of it. They are the exception not the rule.

I had one of my Siamese get an eye infection and it was treated with a steroid cream and antibiotics. Because these medications or the infection caused a warming or increase in blood flow to the eye my cats fur around the eye grew speckled with light hairs. Over time those light hairs returned to black once the area returned to normal.

As with anything you read on the internet or in a book the information provided is the authors interpretation of information they have digested and presented for you to read. Take it for what it is. I bet Kotton is a wonderful lovely companion despite the aging color of her coat.

Originally Posted by Mia mouse

..............................Heidi, ...................... If you have ever spent any time with the elderly you will know that even in hot weather they can feel cold because of their poor circulation. .

As with anything you read on the internet or in a book the information provided is the authors interpretation of information they have digested and presented for you to read. Take it for what it is.

I bet Kotton is a wonderful lovely companion despite the aging color of her coat.

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I think you just showed ME why I, myself am so cold all the time. I am not elderly but am close to it!

Kotton is my grumbling sweetheart. She HATES Panther as he goes after her and bats at her BUT she sees no reason why SHE cannot do the same to Missy.

BTW would you let me copy your post and put it in MY own documents. It is fascinating and I think you are right. My Schoolteacher had the "now" apple heads and that was close to 50 years ago.

I have felt cold all my life and can get goose bumps when it is 80 or above if there is a breese......depends on who you ask if I am old It's all relative.
I don't mind if you copy what I said.

It is very interesting to look back at the older Siamese and if you have period cattery names and do a websearch you can find other sites with photos and information.

I enjoy going to the linechasers database and entering names and looking at the cat lineages and searching up photos of them. A good one is the ardeleana database People are always adding new information to it so a dead end today can be linked up at any time.

Sorry for bringing up an old topic but I found this online today and remembered this topic about temperature and the Siamese coat color. This article has a photo to show how temperature does effect the color.
Alaska Science Forum - We are Siamese if you Please Article #836

Excellent article!! Thanks for sharing it! (And Ardeleana's database too! I spend hours in that database!!)

I can add to this a tiny bit.

This is a pic of (RB)Whiskers an Applehead Seal point@17 yrs of age.
Lived his whole life in triple digit summer temps and glued himself to heat sources in the winter.

What an absolutely lovely sealy point boy, Arlyn!

Thank you.
We still miss him terribly.
We will probably start looking for another eventually, in the mean time, we have our two seal point moggies

As a meezer mama, I just know that all siamese points darken as a cat ages. I have three meezers and they all darkened as they age - no choc pt tho, Seals and Blues here.

That's interesting to see what owners opinions are on this. It would be interesting to do a formal survey of seal point siamese and their environment. Could it be that they darken with age because of poor circulation, thus lowering body temperature?

I actually had a science teacher that told us about this phenomenon. When he was done, a bunch of people raised their hands. He looked around and said "Yes folks, this means that if you shave a siamese and put a little jacket on it with strips of ice, you get a zebra cat. Please do not test this theory yourselves." Just the thought of a VERY angry zebra stripped siamese made us bust up laughing.

It does make me wonder how people ever figured out this link in the first place though. I understand the siamese color change when they get sick, but some how this info was scientifically proven (at least enough to put a picture in the textbook of a siamese cat).

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

I still say it has more to do with the lines the cat came from. There are some lines that the body in any point color will stay light (ideal) and others will darken the coat - really has little to do with the cat keeping in cold/hot temp.

Read the article - the Singa cats prove its the pedigree - not the temperature! And like I said earlier; seals tend to get darker more then any other point color.

The early Singa lines had white coats and seal points - and stayed that way for a long time - like over 10 yrs old! I've seen her cats and the pictures in the yearbook article - its a shame that the pictures were not included and only the text.

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Since this came up I have been researching Singa lines and I would like to note that Jeanne Singer linebreed (another name for inbreeding) her lines to keep the white coat. In fact in the 1979 article GoldenKitty45 posted earlier, Ms Singer tells that her winning Singa cats have Singa Lindette (very white coat) appearing up to 15 times in their pedigrees.

I looked up Singa Lindette's birthday and she was born in 1954. When I do the math I get a 25 year span and with each kitten having to mature before being bred that is more then every other year for breeding back to Lindette. That is alot of inbreeding. Jeanne Singer plainly states she had to breed back to clarify her coats and keep them white.

When one line breeds it doubles up desirable genes and undesirable genes....kittens with undesirable genes get sold as pets....this includes recessive medical problems that are expressed because of the doubling up of the genes.

Originally Posted by gayef

Excellent article!! Thanks for sharing it! (And Ardeleana's database too! I spend hours in that database!!)

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You're welcome . The database is a basic tool a good mentor should share with her protÃ[emoji]169[/emoji]gÃ[emoji]169[/emoji]. If you have registered Siamese cat lines that are not there you can also add them.

There are also databases for other breeds. Just do a search on linechasing. There is also a yahoo group of linechasers (pedigree enthusiasts) where you can go to share and link up information.

Originally Posted by gayef

That makes sense because of the temperature variation ... if her belly was shaved, it was cooler there and the fur grew in again dark, but with time, my bet is that it will lighten again.

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Well, Kotton has been chewing her hair out due to allergies BUT her tummy is so dark it i almost black.

I figure she is about 7 years old but maybe younger. I look at Panther who HAS to have Siamese or Oriental shorthair in him - seeing his body shape and his tail and head - and he was about one year when I got HIM and skinny! NOW he is two and filled out and his body looks very much like Kotton's did when I adopted her. I have had her about 4 years now so she may only be 6 years.

SNOSRAP5 she looks almost identical to your Max!

Here is a recent photo of her and oddly her "points" on her legs are now lightening and her tail too. I can almost see tabby stripes on her!

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL22/.../145941921.jpg
If that url does not work try this: http://tinyurl.com/lx36s

Interesting. You all have gorgeous Siamese cats !!!

My Imsadi is a chocolate point Siamese. He is 1 year old now and his coat on his body and his points are getting darker.







The last pics were made a little while ago, he is a little darker now.

Here one of baby Imsadi:

Siamese if you please! They are sooo pretty! It's hard to find the long, elegant type where I live.



Anyway, I have a related question... what about the Burmese gene? I have heard it's heat sensitive too. Is this true? Godiva must be very cold if this is the case...