Question about my Siamese girls color

Originally Posted by MyBabies

I have read that article before BUT I have also read articles that say the ORIGINAL Siamese was the apple headed one and that the Oriental type was created. THEN I have one that says BOTH were at the same time but only a few of the finer types were allowed out of the country.

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The cat in this picture ~strongly~ resembles the cat in the black and white picture at the top of this web site's History page:

http://www.oldstylesiamese.com/history.html

If you care to read the history which Dr. Bird has so generously put together for us on that page, you will see that the more wedge-shaped Siamese cats were most certainly NOT the Original Body Style of Siamese. The cats we see in the show rings today began to evolve in the 1950's to 1960's. It was in the 1950's, I believe, when a preface to the Breed Standard was approved by the Breed Council (I can't remember off the top of my head, but I think Jeanne Singer wrote the breed standard preface ... someone correct me if I am wrong) and the more extreme wedge shaped cats became the norm for the breed.

Originally Posted by gayef

The cat in this picture ~strongly~ resembles the cat in the black and white picture at the top of this web site's History page:

http://www.oldstylesiamese.com/history.html

If you care to read the history which Dr. Bird has so generously put together for us on that page, you will see that the more wedge-shaped Siamese cats were most certainly NOT the Original Body Style of Siamese. The cats we see in the show rings today began to evolve in the 1950's to 1960's. It was in the 1950's, I believe, when a preface to the Breed Standard was approved by the Breed Council (I can't remember off the top of my head, but I think Jeanne Singer wrote the breed standard preface ... someone correct me if I am wrong) and the more extreme wedge shaped cats became the norm for the breed.

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The article by Dr Bird is the one I was referring to here, when I said:" BUT I have also read articles that say the ORIGINAL Siamese was the apple headed one"

So will Kotton turn completely DARK brown or will she ease off? I love her no matter what but it does make me sad to see the pretty buff leave. OH and her coat is as soft as Cotton - hence her name. Do all Siamese cats such soft fur? I keep telling her I wish I was tiny and could snuggle in her hair all day long. AND SHE thinks this should be a ONE cat only house and HER the only cat. I HAD a Queen of my heart kitty so Kotton is the LADY and she ACTS the part!

There will be parts of her body that will be a darker brown as she matures ... most notably, her back feet and up onto her hips and back, her front feet and legs up to her shoulders, her face, her ears, her tail - while her underside, belly, neck and chest will remain lighter.

This is what makes a Seal Point ... a Seal Point. Blue Points are the same in that they will be a darker grey while Lilac Points stay lighter, like the Chocolate Points. The Lilac and Chocolate Points are a diluted form of Seal and Chocolate.

Here's an example of how dark Shane has gotten. When he was a baby, his body was almost as light and creamy as SunLee's is now. Although his points were darker than SunLee's, even when he was a kitten.

Originally Posted by HopeHacker

Here's an example of how dark Shane has gotten. When he was a baby, his body was almost as light and creamy as SunLee's is now. Although his points were darker than SunLee's, even when he was a kitten.

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I think Kotton will soon be the color of Shane as her tummy is DARK brown and she has only a bit of a light colored throat.

Shane is 8 years old, how old is Kotton? This picture was taken about a year ago, when Shane was 7. Believe it or not, a lot of people think Shane is more beautiful that SunLee is, because of his darkness. I've also noticed that a lot of people don't care for the Wedge faced Siamese. They also used to think he was more striking than my beautiful RainBow Bridge boy, Snoopy who was a Blue Point, or at least that's what his papers said, although I'm beginning to believe he was really a Lilac Point because he was light even at age 20.

In a lot of the siamese articles I've read there were 2 types of siamese in Siam - the street siamese and the temple siamese. The street ones were more of the "old fashioned/applehead" type and the temple ones were more refined. Tho I suspect not as extreme as the ones in show today There was an obvious difference. The temple ones were more highly prized and very hard to get out of Siam.

So the first siamese that were brought to Europe were the more common, applehead ones who's coats got really dark with age. Those were the ones that were shown and kept as pets - it was the "norm". Little by little, some of the more refined temple siamese made their way out of Siam and into the gene pool. So over time, the shows/judges picked the refined ones. And again, over time, breeders have refined them even more. So there is a really drastic difference in the 2 types now.

Some people liked the "old-style" and started breeding them. Maybe 50/100 years from now it will swing back and the "old-style" will be the ones in the rings

I like both types. I can see the beauty in both. But I do like the lighter coats and chocolate points are my fav.




Hope, there are blue points that stay light. If your boy was a lilac point, the point color would have been extremely pale. But if it was deeper, then you had a blue point and just were lucky coat stayed light. While it might be hard to tell point colors sometimes, I don't think a breeder would mistake blue and lilac points.

Here is a picture of Snoopy when he was about 19 1/2. If anything, he lightened up with age.



And here is a picture of Snoopy when he was about 5 or 6 years of age.



He wasn't show quality of course, because he was more of an Apple Head, and also because his fur was a little bit too long. However, IMO, he was the most beautiful cat I've ever known. That was probably due to the fact that he had the soul of an angel, all of his life. Although these pictures don't really show the bluish hue of his points because of the lighting. He definately looked kind of peuter coloured.However after seeing Yosemites cats, I really don't see a lot of difference in Blue Points and in Lilac Points.

If you don't see the difference in blue/lilac points, then its poor breeding cause you should definently see a difference

Blue is a blue/grey looking; Lilac should be a much paler shade - almost pinkish blue. Read the color standard in points for siamese and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Here's the description for the basic solid point colors:

Lilac Point: Body color glacial white, shading, if any, in the same shade as the points. Points: frosty gray with a pinkish tone, the dilute pigment permitting the flesh tone to show through, resulting in a delicate peach blossom tone of the inner ears. Nose leather and paw pads: lavender pink. Lilac is a dilute color and may be pale, even when mature at 2 years.
Disqualify: Exhibits with dark intense tone of paw pads and nose leather.

Blue Point: Body color should be an even platinum gray of bluish tones, shading gradually into a lighter color on the belly and chest. Points should be a deeper grayish-blue tone, all points being as nearly the same shade a possible. Flesh tones of nose leather and paw pads to be a dark blue-gray.
Objections: Fawn or cream shadings.

Chocolate Point: Body color should be an ivory color all over, shading , if any, to be in the color of the points. The points should be a warm milk chocolate color, the ears, mask, legs, paw and tail to be as even in color as possible. Allowance should be made for incomplete mask, etc., in kittens and younger cats. The ears should not be darker than the other points. As a result of diluted pigmentation of the points, the flesh tones show through at the top of the nose leather, resulting in a burnt rose tone while the paw pads have a salmon pink color.
Objections: Exhibits with dark intensity of tone or paw pads and the top of nose leather, as seen in the Seal Point Siamese, shall be disqualified for competition in the Chocolate Point class. Commonly referred to as a spoiled Seal Point.

Seal Point: Body color should be an even pale fawn or cream, shading gradually into a lighter color on the belly and chest. Points should be dense, deep seal brown, all points being of the same shade. Flesh tone of nose leather and paw pads to be seal brown.
Objections: Black or gray shadings.

Red Point: Body color should be clear white, shading, if any, should be same tone as the points. Points should be a bright apricot to a deep rich orange-red "hot" color, the deeper the better. The red gene is a slow developing color. Two years shall be allowed for point color (mask, ears, tail) to intensify. Feet and legs will not have the same color development as the other points. They will appear as a cream white to a light apricot. Check near front paw pads and up the back of the hock for color. Kittens should be white in body with hot creamy points (mask, ears and tail). Nose leather and paw pads to be a "hot pink". Absence of barring preferred. Dark flecks on the nose leather and lips of older cats will be allowed.
Objections: Any pale or bluish tone to the points.
Disqualify: Black, blue or cream patches on body and/or point color (not to include dark flecks on nose leather), showing even slight tortie pattern.

Cream Point: Body color is to be an even white all over, shading, if any to be the same color as the points. Points may be any shade of cream from a deep cream to a pale cream. The overall impression to be a dull color as opposed to the hot tone of the Red Point. On deeper specimens, the impression will be a deep cream color with a dull bluish overtone. On paler specimens, the impression will be a very pale cream tone with a frosted overtone. Check near front paw pads and up the back of the hock for color. Deeper point color and absence of barring preferred. The red gene is a slow developing color, 2 years shall be allowed for point color (mask, ears and tail) to intensify. Feet and legs will not have the same color development as the other points. Nose leather and paw pads to be pale coral pink. Dark flecks on the nose leather and lips of older cats will be allowed.
Objections: Hot point color. Specimens showing hot red point color to be transferred to Red Point Class.

This is Max and he is a Sealpoint. He was very light at first but over the years he has darkened considerably. He is 5 1/2 years old.

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Here's the description for the basic solid point colors:

Lilac Point: ....

Blue Point: ....

Chocolate Point: ....

Seal Point: ....

Red Point: ....

Cream Point: ....

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I don't know where you are getting your color classes but in CFA Red Points and Cream Points are NOT Siamese. They are considered Colorpoints. In CFA, only the four basic color points, Seal, Blue, Chocolate and Lilac are allowed.

Originally Posted by HopeHacker

Shane is 8 years old, how old is Kotton? This picture was taken about a year ago, when Shane was 7. Believe it or not, a lot of people think Shane is more beautiful that SunLee is, because of his darkness. I've also noticed that a lot of people don't care for the Wedge faced Siamese. They also used to think he was more striking than my beautiful RainBow Bridge boy, Snoopy who was a Blue Point, or at least that's what his papers said, although I'm beginning to believe he was really a Lilac Point because he was light even at age 20.

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Vet says Kotton is between 6 and 8. I rescued her so I have no idea when her birthday is.

Fron the description below, I would have to say, Snoopy was a Blue Point.

Maybe the reason I can't see the difference between Blue and Lilac, is because I'm only judging from photo's, and lighting has a lot to do with it. The only Lilac Point I've ever seen is Yosemite's cat, and in the photo's, he looks the same colour as my Snoopy did.



Blue Point: Body color should be an even platinum gray of bluish tones, shading gradually into a lighter color on the belly and chest. Points should be a deeper grayish-blue tone, all points being as nearly the same shade a possible. Flesh tones of nose leather and paw pads to be a dark blue-gray.
Objections: Fawn or cream shadings.

Originally Posted by gayef

I don't know where you are getting your color classes but in CFA Red Points and Cream Points are NOT Siamese. They are considered Colorpoints. In CFA, only the four basic color points, Seal, Blue, Chocolate and Lilac are allowed.

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Kotti is definaely a seal point BUT her tummy is dark brown. Could that be because she was shaved there for an ultra sound? It was creme colored before that and grew in brown!

Very interesting thread!!

Here are some pictures of my seal point Simon (almost 3), he was also very very light at a young age and now he is getting VERY dark! Elle (almost 1 year old) is a blue point siamese and she is getting darker with age as well! I love them both to bits!

Sorry for the picture overload!

That makes sense because of the temperature variation ... if her belly was shaved, it was cooler there and the fur grew in again dark, but with time, my bet is that it will lighten again.

Originally Posted by gayef

That makes sense because of the temperature variation ... if her belly was shaved, it was cooler there and the fur grew in again dark, but with time, my bet is that it will lighten again.

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Her belly was shaved a year ago as xrays showed something wrong in her lungs so they did an ultra sound. Her belly fur has Never grown back thick and long. It is VERY thin and short.

Elle is just beautiful.

All I quoted was the written color standard of solid colors. I am aware of CFA only counting 4 colors as Siamese and the rest are in Colorpoints. But the description for point color does not matter from association to association - its still the same standard. Only matters how they classify siamese/colorpoints.

A seal point is a seal point in any association.

A cream point is a cream point in any association.

We are talking about the written standard for point color - not where they place the cat.

My neighbor has an outdoor siamese girl who seems to be slowly getting darker with age. I think she's a seal point, but she looks almost chocolate brown. That woman has accuses everyone under the sun of stealing her if she sees her cat in their yard and it is fully outdoor. It comes looking for other cats to hang out with and has a huge tom who follows it around and defends it.