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Ok, here is a delicate question

post #1 of 12
Thread Starter 
And I know because we are all adults and knowledgeable that we can discuss this without it becoming bloody.

Do you think that the United States is standing within reason in telling Isreal to withdraw and stop protecting their citizens from the suicide bombers, being that the United States has been, since 9/11 invading a foreign country and protecting our own people against terrorism?

This question was mentioned to me in another conversation and since I am not that politically savvy, I thought maybe it might be a good thing to throw it out here and see what you all felt about it? Honest I am not trying to start a fight, I just would like to see a good honest debate with NO flames. Anyone up for it?
post #2 of 12
I am not a big authority on politics or world affairs, but I sometimes wonder why the US has to go around getting involved in everybody else's business. I mean, if some other country demanded that we not go into Afghanistan after the events of 9/11, would we have listened?

But here we are "demanding" that Israel move out of Palestine. I don't really get it.
post #3 of 12
I don't know a whole bunch about either of these situations, but, I think a parallel to the Israel/Palestine issue is the current Troubles in Ireland. In both cases, an outside group came in and decided for people what they were going to do. In both cases, both sides can make a strong case for their position. There is a religious influence, and there are issues of land ownership and sovereignty.

I don't believe there is a good solution to the Middle East issue any more. You cannot dissolve Israel, but nothing else will settle the Palestinians. The US has been involved from the beginning, but we have traditionally supported Israel. For us to tell them to back down, suggests to me they were way out of line. Perhaps it's just a shift in politics. I mean, I understand the victory represented by the re-creation of Israel, but I also understand why the people who were displaced from their homes are upset.

And yes, the US is probably hypocritical in this, because we believe ourselves to be more important than we are.
post #4 of 12
Oh, now you've gone and done it! I am really strongly opinionated on this subject, both in my support for Israel, included Sharon, as well as my disappointment in the hypocrisy and self-centeredness of the baby Bush administation. Let me right now inform you all that I did not vote for that idiot.

1. Israel was established there in the 40's as a result of the Zionistic movement, but the location was chosen for religious and historical reasons. It is the Promised Land to which the Jews went after escaping slavery in Egypt. It was conquered from the Palestinians by the Hebrews in the 13th Century BC. Later it was ruled by Abbasids, Byzantines, Persians, Romans, Greeks, Muslims, and on and on.

2. The U.S. gives money to all those Arab countries, not just Israel and they use that money to buy weapons while their people starve. For example, we, er, they, give Egypt $2.8 billion a year. Everyone thinks Israel would be lost without U.S. support, when in fact, it is a fairly profitable country with its own industries. Its actually one of the world's largest developers, producers, and ditributors of guided weapons.

3. Bush is calling for Israel to stop this military action. Sharon is retaliating for terrorist acts upon Isreali citizens. If that's wrong, then what they heck are we doing in Afghanistan?

4. Bush only spoke up when it threatened his plans. Bush wants to invade Iraq and unseat Hussein. But to do this, he requires the support of the other Arab nations. The other Arab nations want him to stop Israel, and if he doesn't they won't support him. He is only on their side to get what he wants.

5. Yasser Arafat is a LIAR. He says there is nothing he can do, but his own 'security force' makes up one of the biggest terrorist groups. Every member of his force is a member of the group. He also walked out on Clinton's plan that would have given the Palestinians 90% of the occupied territories! That sounds pretty good, don't you think?

6. And what is this all about? Land that Isreal took in the 6 day War when Egypt, Jordan and Syria attacked Israel. Well, Idreal wasn't as weak as they thought, and not only withstood the attack, but took some land. Well, boo hoo. If you start a fight and lose, and the intended victim takes some of your stuff, don't ask me to feel sorry for you! And Israel even gave most of the land back, the huge Sinai peninsula.
post #5 of 12
Well. I'm just not sure how to follow that post...

First off, I support President Bush, and I DID vote for "that idiot", and would do so again (Better than the ALTERNATIVE IDIOT!). HOWEVER, I don't agree with the way he is handling this particular situation. I don't think we should be stopping Israel from defending themselves. I think they SHOULD be retaliating!

I have to agree with alicat's point #5... Arafat is a liar. And wants nothing to do with peace. It's sooo reminiciant of the holocaust... but I don't want to go there.

For the sake of keeping this peaceful, I am going to end this post now... but may add some thoughts later...
post #6 of 12
I think that the US gets way too involved in other countries problems. I realize we are the most powerful country and all, but sometimes they create problems. Like for example: They aid Israel, yet they don't help Palestine. I can understand why they don't because of the suicide bombers, and such, but maybe they can help them out in other ways?? If only Arafat would condone terrorism, then maybe things would be a little bit different??

Honestly, I get so tired of hearing about all of the terrorism and the bombings. I wish it would all just end for everyrone's sake.
post #7 of 12
I've opinions about the situation in the Middle East, based upon experiences acquired while serving with the U.S. Air Force Security Service during the 1960s — and again while working in the profession of journalism during the 1970s. Judging from the posts to this thread so far, these opinions will not be popular.

When it comes to the Israel-Palestine issue, currently or historically, there's plenty of lying to go around. There's enough "black operations," crimes against humanity and war crimes to go around as well. There aren't any "good guys in white hats" holding leadership positions in Israel or amongst the Palestinian people.

Establishments in the U.S.A. have never presented the Israel-Palestine scenario in a balanced and fair manner. The Palestinians — who were removed from their homes by force of arms in the 1940s and continue to be so removed today — have always been painted as the "bad guys" by U.S.A. academics, artists, journalists and politicians. Sadly, that simplistic-dichotomy propaganda campaign has sunk deep roots in this country.

A most clever and convenient lever is used to hold that disinformation campaign in place: the equating of opposition to policies of the government of Israel with anti-Semitism. Using tactics similar to Taiwan's infamous "China lobby" at Washington during the 1940s and 1950s, which would instantly brand any anti-Chiang utterances as "communistic" or "anti-democratic," the pro-Israel lobby at Washington has succeeded in intimidating the federal government: Any opposition by U.S.A. politicians to policies of the government of Israel, or any attempt by any establishment to shine light upon the actions of the government of Israel, is immediately branded "anti-Semitic."

That buzz phrase strikes fear into many hearts, especially at election time or at broadcast-license renewal time, thus mitigating against any objective assessment of the behavior of the government of Israel by U.S.A. establishments. However, no such constraint is placed upon criticisms directed at the government of the Palestinian people.

Until such time as balanced and fair reportage from the Middle East is forthcoming via journalistic media in the U.S.A., I shall continue to rely upon "foreign" sources for news of developments in that part of the world. I would suggest others do the same.

Regarding the U.S.A. government becoming involved in the Middle East situation, I think it's a matter of sublimation: As long as there's a "foreign crisis" at hand for big headlines, the politicians at Washington need not publicly concern themselves with troublesome domestic matters. The government of Israel surely doesn't need our help! They've got all the best military weaponry the U.S.A. can provide, including nuclear weapons.

(As an aside, I must point out the imbalance there: The Palestinians have automatic small arms, limited anti-tank weapons and limited land-mine capabilities; the Israelis have such things in unlimited quantity plus air power, armor, artillery and nuclear weapons. Bear in mind the targeting of civilians as "legitimate" military targets was exemplified by the U.S. Army during the Civil War [General William T. Sherman]; and it was "perfected" by the Allies during the Second World War, e.g., fire bombings and nuclear bombings of civilian populations.)

Mind, I'd be very pleased if Colin Powell managed to somehow bring the warring factions together; but there's no incentive for the government of Israel to make peace. Ironically, they're Goliath to the Palestinians' David. I believe if the U.S.A. didn't occasionally send big-shot politicians to that region, Palestinians would have long since ceased to exist as a people.

post #8 of 12
Well, I ( as most of you already know ) am a very strongly opinionated person. And if I were to say how I feel on this, I know it would open up a can of worms and I'd hate to see this thread go down in flames!!

So, I will just say that I feel horrible for ALL the people in that region of turmoil. Its horrible that they are living in such a state of violence. I hope that whoever or whatever government steps in to help them reach a peace agreement, will do it in a quick and timely fashion. Seems to be deteriorating daily.

I'll keep my opinions on the US involvement to myself.
post #9 of 12
I agree very strongly with deb25 and susieq. I think the US needs to stop trying to solve everyone else's problems and start to address some of our own.
post #10 of 12
Yes, dtolle is quite right: Immediate diplomatic action is needed to end the violence taking place on both sides of the border. It is a terrible situation for all people, in both Israel and the Palestinian territories. Continuance of the status quo ante may eventually lead to a temporary solution, but only by aggressive diplomatic efforts from all parties involved — directed at the root causes of the violence and not just its manifestations — will there be a true and lasting peace.

post #11 of 12
Oh, how I wish there were a black and white answer to everything! I used to think that way-when I was 16. Of course we want the Jews to live in the Holy Land. The Bible is an important part of our heritage and theirs. I cheer the fact that Israel is the home of those who were homeless and persecuted!

As strongly as I feel that, and I do, I am deeply ashamed of the fact that we took this country, mostly by force, from the Native Americans. Almost all Americans share that feeling of shame. We stole the land that the Native American had the wisdom to realize no one had the RIGHT to own. Then we gave them small reservations on which to live, and after we stole some of that back, we were finally happy with the immense amount of land that was left. If that was a shameful act, how could it be right to steal the land of the Palestinians? Because we share a heritage with the Israelis, because they are our friends, because they were persecuted, because they owned the land thousands of years ago. I wish I could think of a better reason, but the truth is we love the Israelis and we don't love the Palestinians. Yet, the Moslem religion also has its roots in the Old Testament. If someone were to come and steal my home today, I would fight until my dying day to get it back. That's my problem. I understand the feelings and logic of both sides.

I think Bush fears a world wide conflagration will most likely develop if the Israeli-Palestine issue is not resolved peacefully. I wonder how anyone can fight a belief. Remember the book Lie Down With Lions? I wonder if anyone can win a war against terrorism, including the U.S. God only knows. I can only pray. I have no answers, only empathy and questions.
post #12 of 12
Well, I guess I'll open the can...

These two groups of people have been fighting since biblical times. Did Clinton and Bush really think that they have something new to say that will make thousands of years of hatred disappear?? I truly feel for the citizens that have to live with the constant threats in their own homes. However, the leaders of both of these countries have no intentions to really try for peace. If they get close, they will look at each other sideways and call it back on.

One other minor point - has anyone else noticed the major gap in the amount of casualties between Israel and Palestine? The last statistic that I remember is 1500 Palestinian dead, less than 500 Israelis. Which side really needs support here?
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