friend's kittens is dire need of help!

If the kittens are eating eagerly then they definitely have a chance. You may not have had experience with bottle feeding but you are cat savvy and know about normal kitten development and really, that is the most important thing. Even the most experienced neonatal caregivers were new to the process at one point. What you do have is the kind of knowledge that lets you know if things are working or not working and guides you in making changes as necessary. Savvy can sometimes be worth more than all the "book-learning" in the world.

If Mom is that depleted, there is a good chance that her milk is not as good as it needs to be. Plus she really does need the break in order to get her own reserves back up. I think the kittens definitely have a chance with hand feedings, but someone who cannot tell if a cat is emaciated is probably not going to be able to read the subtleties of the kittens' demeanors to know if they are getting enough to eat and are improving. I really think you are their best chance right now, and I think you can give them a good chance.

I would try to encourage him to hand feed the kittens. It is sad that he is likely to lose them...but like you said if you take them he will blame you for it. And it is possible they have something contagious, and definitely cannot be put with one of your litters. Although they are very sweet, and deserve the best chance possible, you absolutley cannot risk your babies or your queen.

Just keep trying to mentor this guy, over time he may learn.

Yeah. It's just very hard to be balanced in my desire to help these kittens and momma without being offensive to him. If I offend him he may shut the door on me and I won't be able to help him. Im trying to help him in the most subtle and tactful way as possible. Im not sure how to address this exactly. I have shown him how to feed the kittens and what to feed them with. I don't want to call him and say "hey, are you still feeding the kittens?"
Im not trying to blame him since I know that he didn't get the direction that he dosen't realize he needed, but he may see my intrusion as an attack on him and his level of care.
He does know that if he needs my help im there in a second. He did call me when his cat had kittens to ask me for my help to make sure the kittens were ok. I just want to hope that if he needs help he will call me again.
I really don't think he understands how bad off these kittens are.
I also think that he was led to believe that he'd make a lot of money breeding cats. Now he's seeing (hopefully) that you really don't make money on this, your lucky if you get the money back that you put into it.

Originally Posted by Beckiboo

I would try to encourage him to hand feed the kittens. It is sad that he is likely to lose them...but like you said if you take them he will blame you for it. And it is possible they have something contagious, and definitely cannot be put with one of your litters. Although they are very sweet, and deserve the best chance possible, you absolutley cannot risk your babies or your queen.

Just keep trying to mentor this guy, over time he may learn.

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That is eaxclty how I reasoned. The only problem is it's extreamly difficult to not let your heart get in the way of good judgement and reason.

good news! I called him just now and he said that he is still feeding them the stuff I bought. He said that the energy level has gone way up, that thier bellies look full and round like I described they should look and they are eating the mixture really well.
They are all still alive too!
He's supposed to go get some more KMR and baby food today. I told him the kitten glop recipe but he thinks it might be too complicated with too many ingrediants. As long as he gets the KMR though im happy. I will probably make up a batch of kitten glop and take it to him anyway so he has extra stuff should he run out.
He wanted to put them on canned cat food in a week or two and I told him not to just yet untill they start gaining weight because kittens should nurse momma for 8 to 12 weeks and so they should be getting milk suppliment untill they are that old.
I don't know that he'll follow that but I hope he does. He dosn't know how lucky he is that none of the kittens have died before I got the chance to step in.
Does anyone know how much the kittens should weight at about 4 1/2 weeks old? I would like to know the exact weight they should be so he can see that they are very tiny for the age they are.

I hope this is a little bit helpful:
I had a litter of 8 kittens that were 3, 3.5 and 4 ounces at birth.
at 3 weeks (sorry, I didn't weigh them at 4 weeks!) they weighed
8.9, 7.2, 7.4, 7.1, 6.9, 6, 6.6, and 5 ounces. The "runt" was VERY much smaller than the others, but ended up catching up. Let us know how much the kitties weigh...

Originally Posted by kluchetta

I hope this is a little bit helpful:
I had a litter of 8 kittens that were 3, 3.5 and 4 ounces at birth.
at 3 weeks (sorry, I didn't weigh them at 4 weeks!) they weighed
8.9, 7.2, 7.4, 7.1, 6.9, 6, 6.6, and 5 ounces. The "runt" was VERY much smaller than the others, but ended up catching up. Let us know how much the kitties weigh...

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I have not been able to weigh them but i'd say the largest is not over 5 ounces. I think the small ones (at 4 1/2 weeks old) are about 3 oz. They were very small when born too. I commented to him on how small the were because I seen them right after they were born.They look like walking newborn kittens with large heads. They are so strange. I can't figure out how they survived to now.

Wow, that's pretty small! I thought it sounded good that they were eagerly eating, at least!

It sounds like these little one's are real fighters. I hope they win their fight for life. What breed of cat are they?

Originally Posted by bengalbabe

Thanks for the suggestions. Im really limited in what I can do because after all, it is his cat and kittens and he has to make the final descisions on how he wants to deal with it. I have given him lots of good advise but I don't know that he'll take it all. He really dosen't have the money to take his cats to the vet so I can't make him do it. I tried to talk him into it though. I've already spent some money myself buying him KMR and baby food.

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AAAAHHHHH!

I'm sorry Bengalbabe, I know it's not your fault. It's just that people that decide to breed but don't have money for vet bills just drive me nuts...

Anyways, this poor momma cat needs to be on the best quality kitten food this guy can find. IMO Eukanuba isn't bad. I'm not sure about a raw diet just yet, (well to be honest I'm not a big raw fan period but that is neither here nor there). Momma's immune system is probably very compramised right now and if there were any e-coli or salmonella contamination in the food it could be a HUGE problem for her.

As you probably already know (and I am just learning) bengals have a very interesting GI history. Most bengals carry a protazoan parasite (not Giardia another one but I can't remember the name right now). This tends to wreak havoc on thier systems as kittens and resolves with time as they grow up. I am wondering, since this cat came from a potentially bad cattery, if she has a huge parasite load. This would contribute to the diarrhea and ultimately her starvation.

Sending a fecal sample to the vets would be the first thing I would do. I would be very leary about bringing her or her kittens to your place unless you kept them strictly isolated. Bottle feeding the babies is about the only thing left to do if she is emaciated as you describe. I would be doubtful that if her milk is already starting to dry up that she will ever be able to nurse again.

Trichomonas is the name of the protozoan.

I was thinking heliobacter pylori but that's the one that causes ulcers, isn't it?

Originally Posted by bengalbabe

That is eaxclty how I reasoned. The only problem is it's extreamly difficult to not let your heart get in the way of good judgement and reason.

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Festus' litter was my first foster litter. Then I took on Garfield and his twin brother Odie when Festus and Garfield were about 8-10 weeks. Several days after getting them, Odie died of distemper. Garfield had a battle for his life, but obviously survived. Festus' litter got sick, but since they had their first vaccinations, and it was caught early, they all did just fine.

I'll never forget that feeling of fear, that I that I could have killed my babies by bringing in an illness.

Garfield and Odie had been vet checked, I'm not sure why the distemper wasn't picked up. I am now terrified of diarrhea...and even if it isn't distemper it is not fair to your resident animals to risk them, and your breeding program. But do what you can up to bringing the kittens into your home.

It sounds like he is already learning from your intervention. I am very glad to hear that. It is amazing that the kittens survived this long. That Momma cat must have been feeding them around the clock to keep them alive. Poor, dear, I hope she gets some of the kitten formula to build up her strength!

Originally Posted by gayef

I was thinking heliobacter pylori but that's the one that causes ulcers, isn't it?

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Yes, and I think heliobacter is a bacteria? Trichomonas is a protozoan and is very difficult to treat. The parasitologists basically say "yeah, good luck with that!"
I only know this because we have been going through this with a bengal breeder that is a client of ours. They only have a couple of breeding cats and are raising the kittens in their home. The cats are very clean and well cared for but the diarrhea is an ongoing situation, despite regular vet care.

Originally Posted by Dr. Doolittle

Yes, and I think heliobacter is a bacteria? Trichomonas is a protozoan and is very difficult to treat. The parasitologists basically say "yeah, good luck with that!"
I only know this because we have been going through this with a bengal breeder that is a client of ours. They only have a couple of breeding cats and are raising the kittens in their home. The cats are very clean and well cared for but the diarrhea is an ongoing situation, despite regular vet care.

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Yeah she is a bengal. It seems benagls need a raw diet more then other cats. I know plenty of bengal breeders that feed raw and have very healthy cats.
I had problems with my bengals and GI disorders on a commercial diet.I tried all the expensive brands of dry and canned. I spent more time at the vets office then I did at home and more money at the vets for my cats then I spent on my family! Nothing would resolve the ongoing problems. I finally switched them to raw and have not looked back since.
I don't care what anyone says, i've seen first hand what that diet did for my bengals. One of my queens was sick and skinny because of GI disorders and parasites over and over untill I switched her.
Now I have no sick cats-ever. Not even a worm or a sneeze or anything! Not even one bout of diarrhea.
Im not going to get in a back and forth about raw but as far as im concerned he needs to try something other then what he's trying now. He already took the cat to the vet for a full workup right before she was bred. The vet found nothing and told him to feed eukanuba so she'd put on weight. Obviously that didn't work.
If he dosen't try somethig drastic she will die. If you seen her you'd know what im talking about.

Originally Posted by bengalbabe

Yeah she is a bengal. It seems benagls need a raw diet more then other cats. I know plenty of bengal breeders that feed raw and have very healthy cats.
I had problems with my bengals and GI disorders on a commercial diet.I tried all the expensive brands of dry and canned. I spent more time at the vets office then I did at home and more money at the vets for my cats then I spent on my family! Nothing would resolve the ongoing problems. I finally switched them to raw and have not looked back since.
I don't care what anyone says, i've seen first hand what that diet did for my bengals. One of my queens was sick and skinny because of GI disorders and parasites over and over untill I switched her.
Now I have no sick cats-ever. Not even a worm or a sneeze or anything! Not even one bout of diarrhea.
Im not going to get in a back and forth about raw but as far as im concerned he needs to try something other then what he's trying now. He already took the cat to the vet for a full workup right before she was bred. The vet found nothing and told him to feed eukanuba so she'd put on weight. Obviously that didn't work.
If he dosen't try somethig drastic she will die. If you seen her you'd know what im talking about.

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Also wanted to add that I do know that the breeder the cat came from does worm her cats and get vet checkups done on the kittens before selling them. She's good about some things she's just not very discriminating when it comes to who she will sell her breeder cats to.
Although, I do have to admit that most of her kittens have URI's, which shows they have a compromised immune system early on.

I would actually add some canned kitten food to their formula sooner than later. Formula doesn't compare in quality with mother's milk so I always push solids (in some form) pretty quickly with my orphans since high quality canned kitten food will give them better quality nutrition. Nutro kitten food mashes into a smooth paste and of all the foods I've tried, it's my favorite to mix with KMR for syringe feeding. Any smooth textured food would work, though.

If "all" they are battling is malnutrition at this point, they have a good chance. If it's any inspiration to you, there is an 8-month-old kitten stalking his playmate in this room as we speak whose story makes these guys seem like they've had it easy. I got him from someone who was keeping him in his bathtub and feeding him bacon when he was just 3.5 weeks old. (The man was well-intentioned, he'd just found this guy in his backyard and had no idea how to care for him.) Buster's temperature and blood sugar were too low to even register a reading, and his heart rate was 50. He was so weak he could barely expand his chest wall enough to take a breath. But all it took was heat, dextrose, fluids, and a dose of cardiac stimulant meds before he was good as new. These guys can be ridiculously resilient. At this point you'd never know he ever had any problems. As long as they are fighting, it's worth fighting with them.

For the momma cat - I've had good luck with Gerber baby food getting a cat to eat and put on some weight. The number 2 meats (remember, no onions or garlic) are what I used when my cat was at death's door. I fed her a tablespoon of baby food and a tablespoon of plain yogurt every 3 hours around the clock. (He could give the cat more than that, though. My cat had an intestinal blockage, so had to start slow.) Poor momma. It SO takes it out of them, even when they're healthy!

Originally Posted by kluchetta

For the momma cat - I've had good luck with Gerber baby food getting a cat to eat and put on some weight. The number 2 meats (remember, no onions or garlic) are what I used when my cat was at death's door. I fed her a tablespoon of baby food and a tablespoon of plain yogurt every 3 hours around the clock. (He could give the cat more than that, though. My cat had an intestinal blockage, so had to start slow.) Poor momma. It SO takes it out of them, even when they're healthy!

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Yeah guys...I said in other posts that I have him mixing meat baby food with the KMR, but thanks for the suggestion anyway.
I don't know if he'll feed baby food to momma it's rediculously expensive, but he is feeding the kittens the baby food/KMR mixture.
All baby food is- is cooked meat that is ground to a paste. He could actually make some himself if he got imaginative.

You asked about their weight.

Kitten Weight
At birth, weight should be approx 3-3.4 ounces.

At age 1 week weight should be approx. 4 ounces.

At age 2 weeks, weight should be approx. 7 ounces.

At age 3 weeks, weight should be approx. 10 ounces.

At age 4 weeks weight should be approx. 13 ounces.

At age 5 weeks, weight should be approximately 1 pound.

By the end of the 8th week, kittens should weigh approximately 2.2 pounds.

Of course, all these weights are approximate. You may have a kitten that is slightly under or over these weights and still be perfectly healthy.