friend's kittens is dire need of help!

bengalbabe

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I have a friend who knows nothing about cats and unfortunately a breeder sold him a breeding cat and provided stud services for him. Long story short, now that the kittens are in desperate need of help.
The queen was already very thin when he bred her so I was concerned about the kittens.
I went to check on his kittens last night. The kittens are a little over 4 weeks old but they are literally the size of newborns. Three of them are not too bad off but are still very, very small. Two of them I don't think are going to make it. They are literally skin and bones and walk hunched over. The momma cat is so thin that her hip bones protrude from her fur and her back bones do too. The guy who owns them is doing all that he can do considering he knows nothing. He does have dry food out for his queen all day long. The vet told him to feed his cat eukanuba (which of course I object to anyway) He didn't realize that the kittens were way too tiny for thier age.
I sat around for awhile observing momma cat and I noticed that she has diaherria and im sure that she's had it for some time and that's why she's so thin dispite being feed on a regular basis. I pointed out to him that she is losing all of her nutrients from having diaherrhia and that she will not be able to gain weight and that most likely she is not producing enough milk for her kittens.
I went home and got some KMR and some syringes and went to the store and bought some meat baby food. I mixed the KMR with the baby food and syringe fed all of the kittens. I told him to do that every day, several times a day untill they were able to each out of a dish.
My question to you all is are there any suggestions that you might have that I can give to him?
I know he shouldn't be breeding in the first place without sufficient knowledge but the breeder who sold him the cat did not let him know that and now we are at the point where the damage is done. I figure I can try and mentor him myself since obviouly the breeder who sold him the cat is not doing it or not doing a decent job of it.
Any ideas would be appriciated. I have already let him know the importance of doing his homework before he breeds.
I do have a queen that is due in a few days and I considered telling him that if he wants I can take his kittens and have her nurse them. The problem with that is I don't know how large of a litter she's going to have and that might put too much of a strain on her to nurse too many kittens. Do you all think that's a bad idea? I then thought maybe i'd take the two smallest, sickest ones and have her nurse them, but I am worried that if they should die while in my posession he will get mad at me thinking that I had something to do with them dying. I've already put myself out there though because if any of them should die now he might think it's because of the advice I gave him anyway.
What would you all do?
It makes me so mad that this could have all been prevented in the first place if the 'breeder' would have only sold breeding cats to someone with sufficient knowledge.
 

goldenkitty45

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The only thing I can think of (other then get EVERYONE to the vet's) - kits probably are dehydrated is to feem mom all the canned food she wants - she may not LIKE the dry and is not eating it.

I hope the kits survive. And hope you will sit down before he breeds that cat again with some basic information - first of all she should not be breed for at least a year!
 

solaritybengals

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Oh what a situation! If you decide to take a kitten make him sign a contact understanding the risk of the kitten dying anyway...

I'd suggest keeping corn syrup on hand in case a kitten crashes. A little on the lips will bring the blood sugar back to normal.

I'm almost thinking that once a cat goes onto KMR they might not want to go back to regular milk. Or maybe thats just human babies...

If mom has diarreah then kittens probably also have an internal parasite. This would probably be passed to your newborns if you took a kitten on. Mom should probably go to the vet... I doubt its the diet giving her the diarreah.
 

kumbulu

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Mumcat needs to be fed all the wet and dry KITTEN food she wants. Also, she will do well having kitten glop or KMR.

Home-made kitten formula (Kitten Glop)
8 ounces water (boiled then cooled)
1 envelope Knox unflavored gelatin
8 ounces whole evaporated milk (not skim)
2 tablespoons mayonnaise (not low fat)
2 tablespoons plain yogurt (not low fat)
1 large or 2 small eggs yolks (raw)
1 teaspoon clear Karo syrup
* 1-3 drops liquid pet vitamins
* 1 capsule acidophilus
* 1 drop Grapefruit Seed Extract (GSE)
* Optional, though very beneficial.
Boil the water, add the gelatin and mix well. Add the following ingredients in order, mixing well after each addition:

1/2 of the canned milk
Mayonnaise and Yogurt
Rest of the milk
All other ingredients

You can substitute canned goat's milk for the canned evaporated milk, if you prefer it. This mixture will keep in the fridge for up to four days. It is jello-like in consistency in the fridge so you can just scoop out as much as you need and warm. It can also be frozen in ice cube trays and defrosted as needed. You can find pet vitamins at a pet store or your vet, and acidophilus and GSE in the liquid form at a good health food store.

I agree that mum and kittens need to see a vet. It may be too late for the kittens - it sounds like they are really suffering.
 

hissy

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I agree with Tania, best to get the family to the vet and be prepared for the babies to be euthanized.
I just lost 8 newborns this morning, they were so flea infested when they were brought here. We did our best but they did not survive.


I hope that you can save the mom, and then mentor this person on how and how not to breed. Good luck-
 
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bengalbabe

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Thanks for the suggestions. Im really limited in what I can do because after all, it is his cat and kittens and he has to make the final descisions on how he wants to deal with it. I have given him lots of good advise but I don't know that he'll take it all. He really dosen't have the money to take his cats to the vet so I can't make him do it. I tried to talk him into it though. I've already spent some money myself buying him KMR and baby food.

Solarity bengals...I thought of that too that the kittens might not want to nurse if they are being supplimented but at this point there's no choice they will die without it. Im hoping and praying that he keeps up the supplimenting. If he should stop because its too time consuming or dosne't have the money to buy it then the kittens will probably die.

Uggh im torn between really putting myself and my cattery at risk for his kittens or just giving him the advise that I can give him. He really dosent want to listen to me on some things. He thinks that the cat is naturally that thin because that's what he was told by the breeder-that it's in the cats genes to be that thin. The cat is emacieated (sp?). If you all could see it you'd be in tears. My daughter did not want to leave last night without one of the skinny little kittens but we had to after doing what we could at that point in time.

I did see her eating the dry food a little. Her appetite is not good though at all. I tried to push him into a raw diet since my cat had IBS and couldnt gain weight untill I put her on a raw diet but he thinks the raw will make her sick (don't know how she can get any sicker) and that it will make her wild to eat raw meat.
I let him know he can come over to my house any time and see my cats. They all are on a raw diet and none of them are sick or underweight or wild.
 
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bengalbabe

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thanks for the recipe Tania. I'll probably make up a batch and take it to him. Can it be frozen and thawed for later use?
 

hissy

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Yes it can be frozen. Kittens and momcats thrive on it too.
 

sharky

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You know I have limited knowledge ... the others gave more advice than I could.. does your friend have the little rice bags or a way to keep the kits warm>?? I am sending vibes to the poor kitty family
 
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bengalbabe

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Originally Posted by sharky

You know I have limited knowledge ... the others gave more advice than I could.. does your friend have the little rice bags or a way to keep the kits warm>?? I am sending vibes to the poor kitty family
Well mom cat is good about that and she tries to feed them but she just dosen't have much to give she's already skin and bones. He also has a heating pad in thier box that they can go onto if they get cold. They get cold very easy too because they are so small.
 

solaritybengals

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If money is limited maybe just a fecal sample from mom? Thats only around $15... You could at least find out if she has any parasites and then an antibiotic isn't horribly expensive. Its better than nothing.
 
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bengalbabe

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Originally Posted by SolarityBengals

If money is limited maybe just a fecal sample from mom? Thats only around $15... You could at least find out if she has any parasites and then an antibiotic isn't horribly expensive. Its better than nothing.
Here in CA. it's very expensive to be treated by a vet even if it's just for parasites. They won't treat a cat unless you bring it in and have it looked at first, they say it's the law. It cost me $70.00 to have my cat treated for roundworms about a year ago.
To be honest, I presonally don't think parasites are the problem although she could have them. I think she has IBS. She's showing classic signs of having a long time bout with diaherrhia. She even stands on the edge of the litter box like my IBS girl used to do when she was plagued with IBS.
 

solaritybengals

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Wow really??? I became paranoid for absolutely no reason once with Meeka and $15 later my mind was put at at ease. Thats really too bad if its a more extreme problem. I'm sure an all wet food diet would help some and the glop sounds like a good idea.
 

jennyr

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Not a breeder but I read this with horror! What are his long term plans for the momcat? I hope he realises he is out of his depth.
 

hopehacker

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I think the person he got that cat from, should be turned in to the authorities. It's obvious that the cat was abused before he got her. It sounds like a heartbreaking situation. Can you convince him to bottle feed the babies?
 

semiferal

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I think it would be best if you took the weakest kittens and hand-fed them yourself, if this person is okay with that. Kittens can really surprise you in their ability to survive, but when they are really compromised it's a tricky job with tons of subtleties. Unless you are a really gifted teacher, these things are hard to teach and really have to be learned by experience. The example of your friend not being able to differentiate between "naturally thin" and "emaciated" is a good illustration. It's not easy to explain where that line is but if you have experience, you know it intuitively, if that makes sense.

I do think everyone needs to be treated for parasites and obviously, a vet visit is necessary to find out the cause of the diarrhea. One drug (prescription only) that I would try with the kittens if parasites are ruled out is Carafate, which is a mild ulcer drug that also has a constipating effect. I have had it prescribed for extremely young kittens and it does work quite well.

The situation sounds heartbreaking. I agree that some action (not sure what) should be taken against the breeder who sold this man the cat with breeding rights.
 

gardenandcats

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This is a very hard situation for you. If the owner can't afford a vet visit or won't take them in. The best thing you can do is hand feed the babies. The babies obviously are Not getting much nutrients from the mom, and the mom trying to feed them is taking away the nutrients she sure needs herself.
By feeding them they hopefull will start to thrive. And the mom might start to gain some weight by not having to nurse them.
Like everyone else has stated what really needs to be done is Mom and kittens should go to the vets.
I can't for the life of my figure out what some people are thinking. If they want to breed cats then they need to expect problems that often crop up and have the funds to take them to the vet.
 
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bengalbabe

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Originally Posted by HopeHacker

I think the person he got that cat from, should be turned in to the authorities. It's obvious that the cat was abused before he got her. It sounds like a heartbreaking situation. Can you convince him to bottle feed the babies?
He got the cta when it was a kitten and she did get that thin in his care. But I did want to point out that she was already underweight when he took her in for stud services and the breeder still provided stud services. Obviouly that give this new breeder the message that there's nothing wrong with her. Pregnancy takes a lot out of queens, even healthy ones so the breeder should not have provided stud services, instead she should have instructed him on nutrition and do's and don'ts to breeding and arranged to see the cat again in a couple of months to be sure the cats was doing better, after all she sold the cat to him in the first place!
Yes he said he would syringe feed the babies. I just can't be sure if he will keep it up.
 
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bengalbabe

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Originally Posted by semiferal

I think it would be best if you took the weakest kittens and hand-fed them yourself, if this person is okay with that. Kittens can really surprise you in their ability to survive, but when they are really compromised it's a tricky job with tons of subtleties. Unless you are a really gifted teacher, these things are hard to teach and really have to be learned by experience. The example of your friend not being able to differentiate between "naturally thin" and "emaciated" is a good illustration. It's not easy to explain where that line is but if you have experience, you know it intuitively, if that makes sense.

I do think everyone needs to be treated for parasites and obviously, a vet visit is necessary to find out the cause of the diarrhea. One drug (prescription only) that I would try with the kittens if parasites are ruled out is Carafate, which is a mild ulcer drug that also has a constipating effect. I have had it prescribed for extremely young kittens and it does work quite well.

The situation sounds heartbreaking. I agree that some action (not sure what) should be taken against the breeder who sold this man the cat with breeding rights.
I will see if he will let me take the two then, im just so afraid they won't make it in my care. I have never had to hand feed kittens either although I knew what to do ahead of time should somthing go wrong (and eventually I know that somethign always will)
The fact that these kittens are over a month old they pretty much took to the syringes, they figured out that there was food in them and started chewing on them to get the food out. A couple of them ate a little of the kmr/baby food mixture from a plate.
I agree about the breeder, but unfortunately in this situation the old pass the buck routine can be played.
This is not the first time the breeder has sold breeding cats to people who know nothing about cats. She also sold a breeder to a lady who didn't know what Felv and Fiv were.
I realize that you don't know much about a person that your selling cats too but you can tell if someone knows enough about breeding by asking basic questions about genetics and care or breeding cats/kittens.
If the person dosen't pass your test then offer to mentor them for awhile before you sell a cat to them and offer help afterwards.
If they refuse-then refuse to sell them the cat.
 
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