what do you do if you never get proof of S/N?

Unfortunately, Semiferal, it isn't that easy for breeders to just go and get the cat. The way the laws are written around the exchange of animals for money, it is difficult at best for breeders to enforce their contracts.

I also do 100% of my spay/neuters before they can leave my care. Do you have a contract? If it says that the cat must be altered or you will reposes the cat, then you might be able to fight it in court. But, it may not work out in your favor. It depends what your local laws are on this area.

Those who have said this are correct, if someone is wanting to breed "purebred but not registered" kittens to sell aren't going to care if there is an agreement or an extra fine. Most of these people will sell to petstores, and, as I've seen first hand from friends who've bought from petstores - they WILL claim animals are registered, but some 30% + of those animals have no paperwork to their name.

I have four different breeds who let me live with them....

My thoughts as a new owner are :

All four are spayed/neutered. I have never sent proof to any of their breeders.

The Egyptian Mau came with his papers. The breeder didn't return a single "update" email I sent. The cattery web site is gone. Not sure if she still breeds.

The Ocicat breeder said they would provide papers when she was spayed. I don't really care about her papers because I am never going to breed or sell her. I send the breeder updates but they don't respond. I have heard through the CFA shows that they may have had some health problems the past couple of years. They are still active in CFA just haven't been showing lately.

The Bengal, well, I guess you could say he came from a novice breeder. It was their first litter or kittens. They have bred other animals in the past. They got the breeding cats from a man who lost his job and had to sell them. They planned on doing one litter at a time. I saw mom, dad and the rest of the litter. I saw both parents' papers. I never called them to get the papers for my Bengal. I just really don't care about the papers. He is neutered and isn't going to ever be sold.

My Chausie is a F2. The breeder has a Yahoo group for her new owners of her cats. We talk on the phone occasionally and I update pictures often on the group photo album. He was probably sterile. Not much chance of an early generation male hybrid fathering kittens We had him neutered a couple of months ago. I called the breeder and told her how he did with surgery. He had a testicle that didn't drop so it was a little more complicated and more expensive that a regular neuter. She is a great breeder IMO and is available 24/7 when it concerns her babies. I didn't send her proof of the neuter and didn't get his papers because of it. She said she doesn't keep them that long and no longer has them. He will be a year old March 30. I am not breeding or selling him, so his papers aren't important to me.

I guess what I am saying is I have four purebred cats and don't see why I have to send proof of a spay or neuter if I am not breeding or selling them and papers aren't improtant to me.

FYI my Ocicat was the only one I had to sign a contract on. The other breeders didn't have contracts.

Just the opinion of a non-breeder.

Bobbie

If you signed a contract requiring you to send proof of s/n, then you are obligated to uphold your end of the contract. If you didn't sign a contract that said anything about s/n, then whether or not you send in the paperwork is your decision to make.

In my case......The contract for my Ocicat didn't say I HAD to spay my cat, it just said papers would be given when I sent proof of the spay. Why spend time and money on sending proof of the surgery if you don't care about the papers? I know it's only a couple minutes and a stamp, but why bother if you don't need the papers?

Well, if there's nothing that says you have to do it then by definition you can pretty much do whatever you wish.

It's unfortunate that the breeders did not have a s/n clause in the contract but certainly fortunate that you did right by your guys.

Originally Posted by SolarityBengals

I've been considering this. The problem is my vet is very pricey and I think most people would be able to get the procedure done for a lot less than what I could.

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I'm surprised that you can't take advantage of NC State's Vet School Hospital. It wouldn't surprise me if they would be interested in doing this type of procedure at a lesser rate, especially since it's a teaching hospital.

Honest Question: Since it is so important that any cats not approved for showing or breeding get fixed, why don't breeders do a pediatric S/N at 2 pounds, rather than take any sort of risk with their kittens?

Plus, it's sure easier than taking someone to court or repossessing the cat.

Originally Posted by lionessrampant

Honest Question: Since it is so important that any cats not approved for showing or breeding get fixed, why don't breeders do a pediatric S/N at 2 pounds, rather than take any sort of risk with their kittens?

Plus, it's sure easier than taking someone to court or repossessing the cat.

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I agree with you, however some vets are still old school, they want to continue doing the S/N at 6 months. Some breeders are not able to find a vet willing to do the pediatric S/N. I think it will become more popular, as more and more vets are becoming educated, and seeing the benefits of early S/N. If a breeder feels comfortable with their vet, one can bring in your own research in regards to pediatric S/N. I have often found that talking with other breeders in your area, can prove to be helpful in finding a vet who will do the early S/N.

Originally Posted by lionessrampant

Honest Question: Since it is so important that any cats not approved for showing or breeding get fixed, why don't breeders do a pediatric S/N at 2 pounds, rather than take any sort of risk with their kittens?

Plus, it's sure easier than taking someone to court or repossessing the cat.

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Honest answer: In the Richmond, Virginia and surrounding area, I was able to find only TWO vets willing to perform pediatric spay/neuter services for a breeder; one who hasn't done any since he "practiced on ferrets in vet school" and the other who has never done any but still wanted to charge me nearly $500 for it! So, I am supposed to take my little babies ... babies who were literally delivered into the palm of my hand and who are absolutely cherished in this household ... to someone who has very little or no experience and/or wants to overcharge me? I don't think so.

I even tried to contact the local low-cost spay/neuter clinic to see who they used and if he/she would be willing to work with a breeder. I am certain you can imagine ~that~ conversation! I stayed on the line putting up with the abuse for about 5 minutes before I politely thanked the woman for her time and hung up on her.

In my area, the jury is still out for many vets in private practice when it comes to pediatric spay/neuter. I think once it becomes more mainstream in all areas, the competancy level as well as the fees associated will both improve.

Originally Posted by gayef

Honest answer: In the Richmond, Virginia and surrounding area, I was able to find only TWO vets willing to perform pediatric spay/neuter services for a breeder; one who hasn't done any since he "practiced on ferrets in vet school" and the other who has never done any but still wanted to charge me nearly $500 for it! So, I am supposed to take my little babies ... babies who were literally delivered into the palm of my hand and who are absolutely cherished in this household ... to someone who has very little or no experience and/or wants to overcharge me? I don't think so.

I even tried to contact the local low-cost spay/neuter clinic to see who they used and if he/she would be willing to work with a breeder. I am certain you can imagine ~that~ conversation! I stayed on the line putting up with the abuse for about 5 minutes before I politely thanked the woman for her time and hung up on her.

In my area, the jury is still out for many vets in private practice when it comes to pediatric spay/neuter. I think once it becomes more mainstream in all areas, the competancy level as well as the fees associated will both improve.

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I think you made the right choice, we also found vets who wanted to charge $450 for the surgery. We found vets with no experience, but was willing to give it a try. We also called the shelters, and it doesn't matter how reputable the breeder is, they don't like them. I think that is unfortunate, that you are trying to do something for the health of your kittens, as well as the overpopulation, and you still had to be lectured. Hopefully, time will make this procedure more widely done.

This honestly amazes me, and saddens me. I was able to move cross-country and almost 10 years ago, find a vet practice with a great rep who had my babies be the first early s/n they did. No extra fee, great attitude...now maybe in part it was because I wasn't really "early", but it was at 4-5 months for the two they did for me (both males).

Before I moved, the vet I worked with in Central NY did a spay for me at 4 months, and a friend was having her kittens done at 12 weeks - more than 10 years ago!

I don't get it.

My vet neutered my Simba at 4 months. I'm in the Los Angeles area. He charged my the regular neuter fee, which if I recall was about $40.00.

I am not a breeder but I was thinking this over... I know some places do "foster care" for animals so why not have an agreement that basically states you are placing the cat in "foster care" with the proposed buyer, pending the spay/neuter, with the understanding that the proposed buyer does NOT own the animal until the spay/neuter is performed. Then if it's not performed you could file a complaint of theft since the cat doesn't really belong to them. The fee could still be charged as a 'deposit' pending verification of spay/neuter and finalizing the transfer of ownership. Just an idea

Originally Posted by notme1295

I am not a breeder but I was thinking this over... I know some places do "foster care" for animals so why not have an agreement that basically states you are placing the cat in "foster care" with the proposed buyer, pending the spay/neuter, with the understanding that the proposed buyer does NOT own the animal until the spay/neuter is performed. Then if it's not performed you could file a complaint of theft since the cat doesn't really belong to them. The fee could still be charged as a 'deposit' pending verification of spay/neuter and finalizing the transfer of ownership. Just an idea

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I have actually done just that on many occasions. It's what I do when I have a qualified adopter interested in a kitten who doesn't have a mama but is still too young to be s/n. I have them sign a contract that says that they are considered to be the foster caregiver until the kitten is s/n. Once it's done then "ownership" is transferred and they enter into an adoption contract. The kitten usually gets s/n at 12-14 weeks. It's worked out great. It's let me place kittens that otherwise would have been taking up space in my place or another foster home for another 2-4 weeks.

Originally Posted by Pat & Alix

This honestly amazes me, and saddens me. I was able to move cross-country and almost 10 years ago, find a vet practice with a great rep who had my babies be the first early s/n they did. No extra fee, great attitude...now maybe in part it was because I wasn't really "early", but it was at 4-5 months for the two they did for me (both males).

Before I moved, the vet I worked with in Central NY did a spay for me at 4 months, and a friend was having her kittens done at 12 weeks - more than 10 years ago!

I don't get it.

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I am in the same boat... I wanted to adopt a large mixed breed dog who was 6 weeks at the time... shelter said he would have to be fixed and my vet said he didnt s/n till six months ... I told the shelter and they gave me a list of vets but I dont trust to easily so adoption fell thru... I am shocked that nearly a decade later more vets dont do they ped s/n

Here is a site with a wealth of information on pediactric spay/neuter. from vet articles, to photos, to videos. (says dog, but mentions both canines and felines in plenty of the articles)

http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/PedSpayNeuter.htm

Originally Posted by turtlecat

I'm surprised that you can't take advantage of NC State's Vet School Hospital. It wouldn't surprise me if they would be interested in doing this type of procedure at a lesser rate, especially since it's a teaching hospital.

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I had this same opinion until our dog was diagnosed with cancer. We sadly learned that Vet schools have more animals wanting treatment then they can manage and if you go to them for special treatment they often charge more then a hometown Vet would.

I also agree that early spay neuter is wonderful and people who really care about a purebred pet will be happy to have it already taken care and don't mind paying the fee in your fee. To tell the truth, I am amazed at the number of breeders that charge the same amount for unaltered kittens as the breeders who alter them. It seems like when breeders raise the cost to cover the S&N the other breeders also raise their price. The best way to handle this it to clearly state the pet they receive from you is already altered and when comparison shopping they need to add the cost in for breeders who don't do it....state what your Vet charges you.