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Cronulla beach riots. - Page 2

post #31 of 50
I would like to say that this conversation is not about Muslims at all - Neither are the riots that are occuring.

I am more than happy for immigration to occur, I like the fact that we have people of many races in this country giving us culture, food, clothing and different opinions on life.

But DO NOT come here to change who we are by getting rid of what we have.

I.e. Taking over a beach with gangs. Making towns take down Christmas decorations because it "offends" you.

I wouldn't move to China and say I was offended because they don't celebrate New Year on January 1st!! I would just take both celebrations!!

Ok, assimilate may be a strong word but I don't think that integration is wrong.

We can have a merging of the cultures so that we have BOTH, not one or the other.

I have friends of many creeds and colours who have come from all walks of life and I do not begrudge them of their culture, but simply ask that they do not want me to give up mine in return.

Is that too much to ask??

And as to people who come to this country and refuse to speak the language - That is not acceptable.
If you have been in this country for almost all of your life (I'm not talking about people who have recently moved to this country) then I don't think it unreasonable to learn English.

I'm not saying that you don't speak your native language, but learn the language that will help you communicate with the community around you. My family have been able to be bi-lingual since they moved to this country, I don't see why its so hard for everyone else! Its not like you don't get an education when you come to this country, no matter how much money you have!!
post #32 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by marie-p
I have to say, I am stunned to see so much hostility towards immigrants and multiculturalism.

I remember when I was living in Ontario, going to Toronto to an asian mall and me and my friends were the only non-asian people there. Eating at the food court was a bit of a challenge because the people there didn't speak much English and you know what... I loved it. Here in Montreal when my window is open in the summer, I can hear neighbors listening to Indian music. In different neighborhood I can hear people speaking French, English, Italian, Indian and so many other languages.
It really doesn't matter to me what language people speak, whether they were born here, how long they have been in Canada or even their legal status here. I don't consider any of them any less "Canadian" than I am and I certainly don't think they should adopt "Canadian Culture" to deserve the right to live here.

I think forcing immigrants to assimilate would not only be oppressive but also very sad. Different cultures have a lot to teach each other and I would be really sad to have a single unified culture.
As far as language goes, I see an advantage for immigrants to learn the local language (makes it easier to find a job, etc.) but I wouldn't look down on anyone who doesn't. Many new immigrants live in their own immigrant communities and are able to function well there in their own language. They certainly aren't hurting anyone.

As far as the issue of things like Christmas decorations, I don't think it's because most immigrants are against seeing Christmas things. If there are immigrants who would complain about that, they are a small minority. I think it's mostly a problem of spineless politicians who see multiculturalism as a threat rather than a blessing and will do anything to avoid offending anyone.

I agree that multiculturism is a gift along w/ being important to the survival of any country...My ancestors came from Ireland, England and Italy....If America had not opened her doors to them I would not be here.......

However maybe you are missing the opposing argument...Its not that the above posters...me being one of them....are against immigration...to the contrary......More so that we do not appreciate changing our way of life for them...as we would not expect them to change their way of life for us.......

My great -grandfather came over from Italy...not knowing a word of english...but he felt that it was his respectful duty to learn the language... He felt that because America let him in at a time where jewish-italians were being excommunicated out of Italy...he could at least show them the respect to learn the language, and understand and respect...(even if he didnt follow all) all customs.....And that exactly what he did....

I think a problem is that some of these immigrants are not showing the same respect my great-grandfather did...Instead of comming over here and being appreciative of what gift has been given...they are instead throwing a fit about what is not given.......
post #33 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebula11
I agree that multiculturism is a gift along w/ being important to the survival of any country...My ancestors came from Ireland, England and Italy....If America had not opened her doors to them I would not be here.......

However maybe you are missing the opposing argument...Its not that the above posters...me being one of them....are against immigration...to the contrary......More so that we do not appreciate changing our way of life for them...as we would not expect them to change their way of life for us.......

My great -grandfather came over from Italy...not knowing a word of english...but he felt that it was his respectful duty to learn the language... He felt that because America let him in at a time where jewish-italians were being excommunicated out of Italy...he could at least show them the respect to learn the language, and understand and respect...(even if he didnt follow all) all customs.....And that exactly what he did....

I think a problem is that some of these immigrants are not showing the same respect my great-grandfather did...Instead of comming over here and being appreciative of what gift has been given...they are instead throwing a fit about what is not given.......

post #34 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
I'm not misunderstanding the argument at all. What I am saying is that Australia, just like the US, has had a massive influx of people come to that country. With them, these people have brought their own culture and values. Just like the US has changed from what it was with immigrant influence, so will Australia. I don't think too many people are forcing Australia to change, but you can't force Australia to be the same, either. I think both sides need to compromise. Instead of "assimulating" (I HATE that word, especially when talking about race and culture), why not "enhance" the country by having some sort of summit, conference or government meeting to work out exactly what the immigrants want?
Yes Australia had a influx of people from other country's but it is still Australia with our customs and our way of life, when someone moves to a country as beautiful and peacful as Australia then they should at least show some respect and grattitude for what has been given to them, which includes learning the language if they intend on staying or at least respecting our way of life even if they are a visitor.

can you imagine if people went to china and expected them to change their traditions for us? it would never happen and it's the same here.

Australians love their way of life, their traditions, customs, pollution free country, untouched beaches, layed back lifestyle and i know i speak for most Australians when i say i won't allow that to change.




Quote:
Instead of comming over here and being appreciative of what gift has been given...they are instead throwing a fit about what is not given.......

well said.
post #35 of 50
I guess I have problems with the idea that immigrants OWE us something for being given the chance to live in our country.
First of all, how is Canada more MY country than anyone else's? I consider myself lucky to have been born here. There's nothing I did to deserve it that people in other countries haven't.

I agree that it's a good thing for immigrants to learn the language. No question there. But if they choose not to, I don't see who it's hurting but themselves.

And no, immigrants are not out to destroy the country they are moving to or to tell people already living there to change their culture. The people who are offended by seeing people celebrating Christmas are a very small minority. If politicians especially could learn to not listen to their non-sense, there wouldn't be a problem.
And "they" are not taking over a beach, a small gang of jerks did. Why does it matter what country they are from?
post #36 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by marie-p
I guess I have problems with the idea that immigrants OWE us something for being given the chance to live in our country.

They owe us nothing but respect...and we owe them nothing but respect.....

Its not more my country then it is theirs....thats not the issue..It is mearly an issue of respect.....

Like i stated...."Some" of the immigrants coming into the US show no respect for anyone elses way of life...Not all some....

And on a side note....The government being a big issue..I completly agree w/ that......At least in the US...Dont know about any other country....

Well anyways in the US...an Immigrant is given free health insurance for themselves and their family...I having been born here DO NOT have free health insurrance....In the US Immigrants are given money to go to school....I being a born citizen do not.......Immigrants are given money, grants, food stamps, and higher welfare rates...and Housing.....I do not.........
So i completly understand and sympathize w/ the governments hand in all of this.....

If our own government obviously cares more about legal aliens then its own citizens, then it is not a wonder why some immigrants look at it that way as well
post #37 of 50
That said, the greeks and italians were at least allowed to continue their religious practices because they were still christian. I have a problem with the mentality that "because we started christian we're going to stay christian" It's not appropriate to have religion in with politics, they should be separate. However, I ton't have a problem with things like "In God we trust" because, quite frankly, God is God, whether it be Jesus, Allah, Hepsibah, or Ralph.
post #38 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtlecat
That said, the greeks and italians were at least allowed to continue their religious practices because they were still christian. I have a problem with the mentality that "because we started christian we're going to stay christian" It's not appropriate to have religion in with politics, they should be separate. However, I ton't have a problem with things like "In God we trust" because, quite frankly, God is God, whether it be Jesus, Allah, Hepsibah, or Ralph.
I agree w/ you 100%...Religion should not be part of politics
post #39 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebula11
Well anyways in the US...an Immigrant is given free health insurance for themselves and their family...I having been born here DO NOT have free health insurrance....In the US Immigrants are given money to go to school....I being a born citizen do not.......Immigrants are given money, grants, food stamps, and higher welfare rates...and Housing.....I do not.........
So i completly understand and sympathize w/ the governments hand in all of this.....

If our own government obviously cares more about legal aliens then its own citizens, then it is not a wonder why some immigrants look at it that way as well
This has me totally confused, because when my husband, and a few other foreign relatives (from Turkey, Hungary, Ireland, Japan, and Taiwan) entered the U.S. as immigrants, they weren't entitled to any of those things. There are various immigration (green card) categories, and most don't grant such privileges. Are you perhaps thinking of people who have been granted political asylum? Also, why shouldn't resident aliens who have paid social security contributions be denied benefits should they need them?

I'm a resident alien of a European country myself, and have been for over two decades. It is very important to learn the vernacular, and to adapt to your host country's way of life, but that doesn't mean you should be required to give up your cultural/national identity (or demand that your host country adapt to yours). For many immigrants, especially women who don't work outside the home, or may be illiterate in their native tongue, it's difficult to learn the host country's language for financial reasons. How many countries offer free, intensive language courses? And if they do, are people aware of them?
post #40 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat
This has me totally confused, because when my husband, and a few other foreign relatives (from Turkey, Hungary, Ireland, Japan, and Taiwan) entered the U.S. as immigrants, they weren't entitled to any of those things. There are various immigration (green card) categories, and most don't grant such privileges. Are you perhaps thinking of people who have been granted political asylum? Also, why shouldn't resident aliens who have paid social security contributions be denied benefits should they need them?

I am not at all saying that they dont deserve it.....by all means they most certainly should......But shouldnt I as well... I got sick last year w/ UTI issues, I dont have health insurence but I had to go to the doctor and get antibiotics and such...while there I was reading about mass health and medi care...ect...anyhoo I called the appropriet people about it and was told "You are not pregnant, and you are not an immigrant so you will not be accepted..and even if you were pregnant, pregnant immigrants usually get first dibs"...this was my government telling me to deal w/ the problems myself because there were people just coming into this country who had first dibs.....I still owe a couple of thousand in bills
I think Health insurence should be free for everyone regardless...that includes immigrants and me.....thats all i was saying

My point was more so that the government may be "causing problems" by offering certain privaliges to immigrants and not others....thats all...

Heck John and I plan to move to the UK in a few years, I hope that I will treated w/ respect, as I will treat everyone there w/ respect.....
post #41 of 50
Heres a site on Immigration in the US...if any one is interested....

http://uscis.gov/graphics/citizenship/imm_guide.htm
post #42 of 50
I'm sorry I have been hikjacking this thread...This is about what is going on in australia........

I cant comment on australian, government religion, custom...etc

But I dont want to hog this thread anymore....so I will leave it w/ what I have said....and if anyone has any comments and questions about what i wrote....you are more than welcome to PM me.....
post #43 of 50
I don't know. That article smacks of the kind of intolerance that quick frankly, is responsible for the destruction of our society and world on so many levels. With the rise in technology, the world is shrinking and people are moving here and there for a myriad of different reasons. Everyone should be respected. Personally, I think religion and politics should be completely divorced if a country wants to truly call itself a free and democratic nation. I think that the inherent tradition of a country is one thing, but patriotism is increasingly being used across the globe to harrass anyone who is different. I believe we had an episode in this country where a major franchise made it illegal for Latino people to speak Spanish at work....it's a painful homogenization of culture. After 9/11 happened and we had all of that flag-raising and yellow ribbon wearing...it quite frankly scared the pants off of me. This is the stuff that war is made of (case in point: the US), that things like the KKK are made of, that religious persecution and racism are made of...If I were Austrailian, I'd be wary of this, not supportive of this. As an American, I am quite wary of the similar happenings in our nation.
post #44 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebula11
Heck John and I plan to move to the UK in a few years, I hope that I will treated w/ respect, as I will treat everyone there w/ respect.....
Course we will Bridget!
post #45 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosiemac
Course we will Bridget!
thanx
post #46 of 50
Changed my mind!

How am I supposed to tell my 2 year old daughter that she can't go to the beach tomorrow, as promised because the police have issued a warning to stay away?
post #47 of 50
Great thread. Great posts on both sides.
Have to agree with OP but can see both sides.
post #48 of 50
One day, who knows when or how, human beings are going to have to accept that the differences between us as "cultures" (either language, religion, political view, or wealth, race, views on pet ownership and especially past attrocities etc) are boundaries that must be crossed and overcome. Forcing culteral identity or country identity is another dividing line that keeps people apart.
Every great peoples/country/culture in all recorded history have contributed vasts amounts to the advancement of humankind to where we are today. No one culture brought us into the 21st century.
Pride in ones country is a valuable thing. Ones heritage should not be forgotten.
But no one country can stand up and say they did it all on their own. Every generation stands on the shoulders of those before them.
Pointing out differences and past attrocities only continue to widen the divide.

The biggest barrier outside of religion would be language, but with technology, who know that can be easily overcome in the next decade.
I only speak US english and some German (i do use Zed and eh alot so i dont know if that counts as Canadian ) I had a hard enough time learning English as a child and my spelling exemplifies it. So i know i could never adapt my mind to a language based upon a completly different set of rules.
But, I know i wish i could travel to china, israel, japan or deep into Scotland and have a meaningful conversation without having to worry about being understood or that language barrier.
any way i ramble and am starting to sound way to much like lenon.

As far as the original post though, i will have to agree that there are isolated peoples who immigrate into a country and just expect their dream to be handed to them. Or hold grudges of past issues to further their own agenda. New immigrants should not be isolated or forced to conform, but they should certainly respect the people who have already established themselves. That respect should include observing the basic laws associated in that country.
post #49 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Middletown
I only speak US english and some German (i do use Zed and eh alot so i dont know if that counts as Canadian )
It's a good start, eh?
post #50 of 50
I reckon some of these attitudes are mighty racist. If I went to Saudi Arabia you're damn right I would object to wearing a burka. Nothing to do with my way of life, nothing to do with anything I strongly believe in. I would also want to celebrate Christmas and continue to live with an Australian attitude and an Australian belief system. It's who I am. I would NEVER ask anyone to give up their culturalism, beliefs, and things that are inherently highly important to them just because I'd moved to another country.

I wouldn't expect them to throw a fit over being asked to assimilate, as DOES happen, and I don't agree with that, but I welcome people into this country with open arms, and I just would like for five minutes someone to try and understand that I'm sure for the most part people DO try to assimilate, but we have NO IDEA what they came from or what they have been through, and these things take time. Nothing can happen overnight and yet so many people here assume that once you move here you should automatically give up everything you care about and believe in - and in many cases ideas and values that have been indoctrinated because of the way you were raised - in five minutes.

I think that if we went to Iran and a woman was going to be stoned for adultery we'd have a hard time joining in and cheering it on because it's not how we were raised. I'd say a lot of our cultural practices seem just as alien to those who move here and yet we expect INSTANT fitting in, no matter what, or you're not trying, and you're not assimilating properly. The lack of tolerance here just takes my breath away, it really does.

I WOULD speak the language of the country I went to, obey their laws and respect their culture, just as I would expect them to respect mine. If that meant wearing a burka in public then I'd do it so I wasn't breaking the law, but I sure wouldn't give up what I believe in to do so.

And going to a country doesn't automatically mean you'll be able to speak the language straight away. How do you know they don't try? And if you were with Australian people in Germany would you speak German to them, or English??

I don't give a flying d*** who started those riots, what matters in the end is what they turned into and who participated. The end doesn't justify the means, and I think those people involved - Australian, Lebanese or whatever - gave every proud Australian citizen something to be extremely ashamed of.

This country is a racist, intolerant, prejudiced country that is (sadly) thriving under the shadow of a culture of fear cultivated by our racist, power-hungry, intolerant, prejudiced prime-minister, and I have to say I'm sad to see your attitudes about this whole thing are such common ones.

And good Lord don't even get me started on the way we treat Aboriginals in this country. Sometimes our society is so blind it makes me sick. Sure, what happened with the lost generation was 50 years ago - so were six million Jews being murdered but you don't see the world trying to forget about that. And just because `every other country' treats it's natives badly, that doesn't make it right. IMO we should be bending over BACKWARDS to make up for what our ancestors did. Absolutely.

Here's a simple test. Would you, honestly 100%, be completely willing and prepared to give up your life and exchange it to become Aboriginal, and lead the lives they lead? If yes, more power to you. If no (and I'm thinking the answer will be no) then I rest my case. If they are so well treated, why wouldn't we want to swap places? Oh, and while we're on this track, lets all happily and willingly give up our homes and land because the Aboriginies want them back. I mean, that's all the reason we needed to take over in the first place wasn't it? We just wanted land and homes? Stuff the natives! Why don't we take what isn't ours? How would we like it if it happened back to us? We'd be outraged. And yet it's what this country was built on, and we STILL have the gall to complain when immigrants come in and make themselves at home.

These days, I am ashamed to be Australian, something I was once proud of, particularly if these are the attitudes that prevail. We wouldn't know how to welcome other cultures if our lives depended on it. Why not reintroduce the White Australia policy? It makes my head spin to think about how many `Australians' would welcome that back into the fold given half a chance.

BTW - I am fortunate enough to live in this country because my ENGLISH mother and YUGOSLAV grandfather emigrated here. Just guess I'm lucky cos I've got white skin and speak English without an accent, right?
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