Attention Breeders...???

Sorry if I offended those that breed "old-style" but most Siamese people would think of them as pet quality and not want to pay a lot for them. While you might have a market for them, they are basically pet quality Siamese because those looking to show them would not be interested.

Just curious of how much you do sell them for?

And I agree on the Tonks - its a compromise for the less extreme look. If I was interested in less extreme "siamese colored" cat, I'd go with the Tonkinese. If I was interested in a Siamese, I'd want the more slender type you see now.

Can I ask what you mean by "most Siamese people"? Granted, technically - you are referring to residents of Thiland or are humans who live in Thailand, one called Siam. That is a Siamese person. However, how do you know what most people involved in breeding Siamese think? And I ask this most politely. Have you conducted a proper survey of Siamese breeders who belong to the various registries or the organizations - the various Siamese cat clubs across the world.

For example, two of the better known are the <A href="<A href="http://www.tccat.org/">Traditional">http://www.tccat.org/">Traditional and Classic Cat International</A> and the <A href="http://www.tccat.org/info/tsca.html"> the Traditional Siamese Cat Association </A>

With respect, you are iuncorrect in your assumptions that traditional Siamese cats are considered pet quality. Please do some research and you will be able to be more versant and able to understand the concepts relating to Siamese cats. It is an entire subculture and one that requires time and research to grasp - like any organization. I just wish you would not jump to conclusions - if you were one of my students, I'd send your work back to be reworded. Maybe I am a little upset that you would rather offhandedly suggest that all traditional Siamese are "pet quality". That is false and not at all true!!! Any reputable traditional applehead or traditional breeder can explain the concepts to you. Gaye on this Board surely knows more than I do since she is an active breeder at this time.

CFA Appleheads - are still shown!!!

Many breeders do raise Appleheads as purely pet quality cats - to maintain those beautiful cats' lines. I love my little show quality Wedgie girl but Appleheads are also adorable. I paid a small fortune for my baby but a traditional show quaility traditional cat would have been equally expensive.One of the best Applehead breeders I know of sells their show quality cats for $1200 and their pet qiality kittens for $600
. A non standard kitten can sometimes nbe sold for less but their prices are not out of line.
So you can understand why we would gasp at the $50 price suggestion.

Please, plesae do your research and never make assumptions!!! (This is common sense I always preach to my students,

I know with Bengals pet quality is like $600-$800 usually. I know Siamese are more common and I usually see price tags around $300 but they may not be reputable nad I would guess that is a pet price (I've never looked into purchasing one myself, just what I see around). Or like what CyberKitten said from great ancestry they would fetch just as much as other breeds.

My local SPCA charges $95 for a cat/kitten.

If I remember correctly for a traditional siamese breeder it is well over $1000.00

Since WHEN does CFA register and eligible for showing "traditional siamese"?

I've been showing since mid 70's in CFA and ACFA and neither accept the traditional siamese to be shown.

So I'm speaking from that perspective. Not the other associations that accept them. The Siamese breeders in CFA and ACFA like the style that is being shown. If they wanted "traditional" types, they would be breeding/showing Tonkinese.

Just my opinion, but no breed (rare or common) should be charging very high prices for pet quality cats - a price of $300-400 should be enough - anything else is greed/profit. I can see charging more for show cats with titles and are top quality but not for pets. I've bred cats and had many show cats sold as pets because the person didn't want to show - but I sold them at pet prices - not show prices. I do know how much money is involved in shots, stud fees, and show expenses.

Since WHEN does CFA register and eligible for showing "traditional siamese"?

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CFA most certainly will register them so long as they meet the required ancestry criteria. And, they CAN be shown - that now being said, they would laugh us out of the show hall and we certainly wouldn't be taking home any rosettes, but they CAN be shown.

I've been showing since mid 70's in CFA and ACFA and neither accept the traditional siamese to be shown.

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The only organization that I know of that will place titles on an Old-Style Siamese is UFO.

So I'm speaking from that perspective. Not the other associations that accept them. The Siamese breeders in CFA and ACFA like the style that is being shown. If they wanted "traditional" types, they would be breeding/showing Tonkinese.

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And this is exactly why the Old-Style Siamese will ~never~ be recognized by CFA as an individual breed or breed variety. They do not allow duplications in standards, so the Tonks would preclude OSS from being recognized.

Just my opinion, but no breed (rare or common) should be charging very high prices for pet quality cats - a price of $300-400 should be enough - anything else is greed/profit. I can see charging more for show cats with titles and are top quality but not for pets. I've bred cats and had many show cats sold as pets because the person didn't want to show - but I sold them at pet prices - not show prices. I do know how much money is involved in shots, stud fees, and show expenses.

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I do charge a little more than what you've quoted here for my kittens. But it isn't for greed nor is it for profit. I only breed one to two small litters per year and the expenses involved far exceed what kitten sales bring in. In my part of the country, the going rate for a pet-quality OSS (since that is all they can ever be - pet-quality), is anywhere from $400 to $600 depending on the breeder. My rates are on the higher end of that range.

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Just my opinion, but no breed (rare or common) should be charging very high prices for pet quality cats - a price of $300-400 should be enough - anything else is greed/profit. I can see charging more for show cats with titles and are top quality but not for pets. I've bred cats and had many show cats sold as pets because the person didn't want to show - but I sold them at pet prices - not show prices. I do know how much money is involved in shots, stud fees, and show expenses.

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I don't know about other breeds but I knwo with bengals that is just the going price for pet quality kittens. I don't think bengal breeders profit any more than any other breeder. I know I expect small litters of just 1 to 3 and complication contingencies would be much higher than the price of the litter sold. I also think it depends on what you plan on including in the price, some people include an early spay/neuter, microchipping, among other things. Low quality bengals still sell for $400-$500 but rarely go below that. With a great lineage I know one breeder that pet quality starts at $1000 but the lineage is incredible.

I knwo for me that money would go right back into facilities, great diet (many bengal breeders feed raw), environment enrichment...you can spend a lot to make your cats happy, in the end you don't make anything even with higher priced cats unless the person is milling them.

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Just my opinion, but no breed (rare or common) should be charging very high prices for pet quality cats - a price of $300-400 should be enough - anything else is greed/profit. I can see charging more for show cats with titles and are top quality but not for pets. I've bred cats and had many show cats sold as pets because the person didn't want to show - but I sold them at pet prices - not show prices. I do know how much money is involved in shots, stud fees, and show expenses.

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Your assumption that costs involved in breeding all breeds of cats are equal, is incorrect. I know for a fact that breeding bengals is more costly than breeding a rex. I charge more than you have quoted for our pet quality kittens. For greed and profit? Can you hear me laughing from over here?
We're at least $10,000 in the hole every year from breeding bengals. We travel all over the country showing our cats...there is no profit other than the pure enjoyment we get out of doing this.

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Since WHEN does CFA register and eligible for showing "traditional siamese"?

I've been showing since mid 70's in CFA and ACFA and neither accept the traditional siamese to be shown.

So I'm speaking from that perspective. Not the other associations that accept them. The Siamese breeders in CFA and ACFA like the style that is being shown. If they wanted "traditional" types, they would be breeding/showing Tonkinese.

Just my opinion, but no breed (rare or common) should be charging very high prices for pet quality cats - a price of $300-400 should be enough - anything else is greed/profit. I can see charging more for show cats with titles and are top quality but not for pets. I've bred cats and had many show cats sold as pets because the person didn't want to show - but I sold them at pet prices - not show prices. I do know how much money is involved in shots, stud fees, and show expenses.

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What about savannahs? It costs about $3000.00 - $6000.00 just to BUY a breeding savannah! All the F generation males are sterile too so if you have a litter of all or mostly males, your losing lots and lots of money trying to breed these cats.
Just because you want to charge less then what a cat is worth dosen't mean everyone should. It's hard enough to keep breeding as it is. I know I have to have a full time job to support my breeding, there's no way i'd be able to live of the breeding income and I usually sell the kittens for much more then what you quoted. Am I just doing something different?
The way I see it-if a person is willing to pay $1000.00 or more for a sofa, why not spend that much on a high quality pet that they will have for 15-20 years! If your going to commit to a pet for that long it might as well be one that you really, really like!

Originally Posted by WellingtonCats

I guess it's kinda like some people breed the longer nosed Persians and we sell them for less then our short nosed ones, that GK was talking about. I would always expect to pay less for a kitten that doesn't meet the current standard then one that does.

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I prefer the longer nosed persians. Here in Spain they're called american persians, and most ppl don't want them. I prefer them to the short nosed ones though...

Originally Posted by WellingtonCats

well you can show and register whatever siamese you want. From my understanding the UFO is a very small organisation - formed not too long ago.

I definitly don't agree with the way their judges are taught.

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Sam,

They aren't as small as you might think, and they have been around for longer than you think.

But, Im particularly interested why you think they aren't trained properly?

I do not want to duplicate anything already said but the very notion that any credible breeder makes a profit is a joke. If you are in it to make money, you are there for the wrong reasons and know NOTHING about bredding. I make a good salary as a physician and even I find it an expensive hobby!!!! No reputable breeder ever makes money in selling her (or his) kittens. Now kitten millers and back yard breeders might - but they do not care for their cats very well and often do not provide the proper vet care. That is a very rude assumption for anyone to make and we are a evry kind group here - I think you owe the credible breeders here a huge apology!! And as I said before, please do your research. If youi want to become a breeder, find a mentor - it is not something you do if can ill afford it. It costs money to breed - because you care about the breed and are doiung your best to care for your babies! They are not profit making machines - they are our live feline beings whom we dearly love. Yopur post makes me sad, angry and upset all at the same time. I do not know howiold you are - tho Wellington Cats here is young and seems to be a very knowledgable and caring breeder - but IF ou think you wil make money from breeding cats - you are sadly mistaken, unless you are a backyard breeder. You also need to learn more about the various cat associations and the compliated world of the Siamese cat categories. They're not that complicated really - but you seem to really know how to confuse the issue!!

How can you now know prices if you are a reputable breeder? Your posts - to be honest and with all due respect - make little sense and are contradictory. Please inform yourself before trying to start a debate. I love my meezers - of all types actually - and if you ask any officer of the org you refer to, they will tell you as Gaye noted, traditional Siamese are still shown. I have only ever bred cats that have titles (do not want to breed non standard cats - there is no point to that tho some here, even good breeders on this Board may disgaree with me but that is just how we do it where I live - it's a big world, we are all different but we all agree on caring for our cats and breeding only for the improvement of the breed! I know no one here that breeds for profit. ). How can you not know show prices if you show your cats? Do you not have an acconting system? You do have to pay fees to enter your cats?

I am beginning to think this whole thread was started as a questionable issue to start some debate. Anyone who loves Siamese would know one sold for $50 is either from a family who knows nothing of the breed, has a Siamese mix with no registration papers - tho papers mean nothing , it is the pedigree that is important. Even Siamese Rescue with which I am involved sells rescued meezers for $150. And that never covers the cost of vet visists and caring for the cat. I think you need a serious reality check!!!!!




Re:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45
Just my opinion, but no breed (rare or common) should be charging very high prices for pet quality cats - a price of $300-400 should be enough - anything else is greed/profit. I can see charging more for show cats with titles and are top quality but not for pets. I've bred cats and had many show cats sold as pets because the person didn't want to show - but I sold them at pet prices - not show prices. I do know how much money is involved in shots, stud fees, and show expenses.

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Sorry if I offended those that breed "old-style" but most Siamese people would think of them as pet quality and not want to pay a lot for them. While you might have a market for them, they are basically pet quality Siamese because those looking to show them would not be interested.

Just curious of how much you do sell them for?

And I agree on the Tonks - its a compromise for the less extreme look. If I was interested in less extreme "siamese colored" cat, I'd go with the Tonkinese. If I was interested in a Siamese, I'd want the more slender type you see now.

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I agree!

Originally Posted by Avalon

I prefer the longer nosed persians. Here in Spain they're called american persians, and most ppl don't want them. I prefer them to the short nosed ones though...

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Good for you.

Originally Posted by Imagyne

Sam,

They aren't as small as you might think, and they have been around for longer than you think.

But, Im particularly interested why you think they aren't trained properly?

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Hi Ken,

They were founded in the mid 90s. That's definitly not a long standing organisation. I made sure to do my research first.

I have heard that the judges are taught by pictures and not even handling the cats!

Sam

Ken - Just checking out the Persian standard for AACE - oh wow I love it, especially since Persians with long roman noses get penalized. PERFECT!

I have been around in the show circuit for 30 yrs and know what prices are for pets/show cats. I showed in CFA and ACFA and granded my cats in both associations. I have friends who have/breed/show Persian, Himalayan, MCC, Rex, Siamese, OSH, and most of the breeds.

So I'm more knowledgable then you think I am. I know the cost of breeding and raising cats. Been there, done that and I also know you don't make money on it either. However, I object to breeders who are charging 3 or 4 times the price of a kitten just because they can get it.

In the 70's/80's I've heard of people taking a $300 pet kitten to New York City and selling that kitten at a show for $800-1,000 just because someone stopped in the show and impulsed bought a "cute little kitten" and had the cash to pay for it.

Was that the right thing to do? To some it might have been; to those who care about where their kittens go - it was very wrong. It was ripping off the public. I'm not saying every breeder is out there doing that, but it still doesn't make any sense in charging hundreds or thousands of dollars for a PET kitten.

I know good and bad breeders and this includes some of the "top" breeders in the show circuit. There are some I'd never get a cat from - not because of what they are charging for it, but because they don't care who they sell too or what cats they are breeding together. There are rex breeders out there breeding brother/sister and creating heart problems, etc. I know, I've seen the pedigrees.

I'm sure you all love your cats, but IMO why breed cats when you cannot show them? Just because you like a certain "look"? My cats didn't get bred until they were shown and either granded or close to it. I proved I had a good cat. I did my research on lines, etc. And most important I had a waiting list BEFORE anyone was bred.

If and when the traditionals are shown in major associations and proven themselves, then you can charge those same kind of prices. Otherwise, what justification are you using?

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

In the 70's/80's I've heard of people taking a $300 pet kitten to New York City and selling that kitten at a show for $800-1,000 just because someone stopped in the show and impulsed bought a "cute little kitten" and had the cash to pay for it.

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Accounting for inflation alone, that same pet quality kitten that was worth $300 in the 70's would be worth at least $600 today.

We're 35 years in the future here.

Originally Posted by WellingtonCats

Ken - Just checking out the Persian standard for AACE - oh wow I love it, especially since Persians with long roman noses get penalized. PERFECT!

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Sam,


Thank You!, I know the Breeders will be glad to hear it!! Since they, along with the breed chairs, are the ones that decide the standard. Of course there is one caveat..... Our standards should be similar to the other larger associations, so as not to keep them out of competition, plus we don't want cats that are peculiar looking to the rest of the fancy.

Alot of our members also show in CFA and TICA (I don't), and one of them brought me a newspaper article about one of their cats, from the early 60's.
It was a Persian and the look was Soooooooo different then, I think I prefer them today as then.

I know a couple of UFO judges, and trust me they do handle cats, although I don't exactly know the procedure for them. I know it took me a little over 2 years to be out of probationary status, and that was after a year of training and breeding a cat of my own to Grand Champion. It was harder still because when I started Munchkins were not accepted for championship status sooo all together, I think it took me almost 6 years to become a licensed specialty Judge. AllBreed is a bit harder.... I can't have ANY mistakes in Judging for 2 years, and every eye is on my final sheets... it can be a bit stressfull. But I enjoy it!

**I am now officially done hijacking this thread.... sorry**

I am in a rush - have to operate in about 20 mins and do not want tobe ancious before that!! I NEVER breed cats that have not been shown!!!! And never sell for huge prices. What is important to me is the breed, finding a good home and improving the breed. That's it!!! Breeding cats just to breed is not done by credible breeders that I know of. You only should breed if you have the proper genetucs background and ability to understand the standard you are seeking. Cats not shown are sold as pet quality - I just don;t understand your questions about price et al if you have been in the biz for 30 yrs - must be very comnfusing where you live. That's it - I have to take a deep breath and calm down now.

I just do not understand all the assumptions. Please, plesae - let us all not be so judgemental and portray such an angry tone in our writing. That is what comes across to me and we don't need that - or I can't anyway!!! This is about care and compassin for cats!! Not arguments!!

OK, that's it for me!