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Attention Breeders...??? - Page 2  

post #31 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by WellingtonCats
well you can show and register whatever siamese you want. From my understanding the UFO is a very small organisation - formed not too long ago. I definitly don't agree with the way their judges are taught.
Sam,

They aren't as small as you might think, and they have been around for longer than you think.

But, Im particularly interested why you think they aren't trained properly?
post #32 of 51
I do not want to duplicate anything already said but the very notion that any credible breeder makes a profit is a joke. If you are in it to make money, you are there for the wrong reasons and know NOTHING about bredding. I make a good salary as a physician and even I find it an expensive hobby!!!! No reputable breeder ever makes money in selling her (or his) kittens. Now kitten millers and back yard breeders might - but they do not care for their cats very well and often do not provide the proper vet care. That is a very rude assumption for anyone to make and we are a evry kind group here - I think you owe the credible breeders here a huge apology!! And as I said before, please do your research. If youi want to become a breeder, find a mentor - it is not something you do if can ill afford it. It costs money to breed - because you care about the breed and are doiung your best to care for your babies! They are not profit making machines - they are our live feline beings whom we dearly love. Yopur post makes me sad, angry and upset all at the same time. I do not know howiold you are - tho Wellington Cats here is young and seems to be a very knowledgable and caring breeder - but IF ou think you wil make money from breeding cats - you are sadly mistaken, unless you are a backyard breeder. You also need to learn more about the various cat associations and the compliated world of the Siamese cat categories. They're not that complicated really - but you seem to really know how to confuse the issue!!

How can you now know prices if you are a reputable breeder? Your posts - to be honest and with all due respect - make little sense and are contradictory. Please inform yourself before trying to start a debate. I love my meezers - of all types actually - and if you ask any officer of the org you refer to, they will tell you as Gaye noted, traditional Siamese are still shown. I have only ever bred cats that have titles (do not want to breed non standard cats - there is no point to that tho some here, even good breeders on this Board may disgaree with me but that is just how we do it where I live - it's a big world, we are all different but we all agree on caring for our cats and breeding only for the improvement of the breed! I know no one here that breeds for profit. ). How can you not know show prices if you show your cats? Do you not have an acconting system? You do have to pay fees to enter your cats?

I am beginning to think this whole thread was started as a questionable issue to start some debate. Anyone who loves Siamese would know one sold for $50 is either from a family who knows nothing of the breed, has a Siamese mix with no registration papers - tho papers mean nothing , it is the pedigree that is important. Even Siamese Rescue with which I am involved sells rescued meezers for $150. And that never covers the cost of vet visists and caring for the cat. I think you need a serious reality check!!!!!




Re:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45
Just my opinion, but no breed (rare or common) should be charging very high prices for pet quality cats - a price of $300-400 should be enough - anything else is greed/profit. I can see charging more for show cats with titles and are top quality but not for pets. I've bred cats and had many show cats sold as pets because the person didn't want to show - but I sold them at pet prices - not show prices. I do know how much money is involved in shots, stud fees, and show expenses.
post #33 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45
Sorry if I offended those that breed "old-style" but most Siamese people would think of them as pet quality and not want to pay a lot for them. While you might have a market for them, they are basically pet quality Siamese because those looking to show them would not be interested.

Just curious of how much you do sell them for?

And I agree on the Tonks - its a compromise for the less extreme look. If I was interested in less extreme "siamese colored" cat, I'd go with the Tonkinese. If I was interested in a Siamese, I'd want the more slender type you see now.
I agree!
post #34 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avalon
I prefer the longer nosed persians. Here in Spain they're called american persians, and most ppl don't want them. I prefer them to the short nosed ones though...
Good for you.
post #35 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imagyne
Sam,

They aren't as small as you might think, and they have been around for longer than you think.

But, Im particularly interested why you think they aren't trained properly?
Hi Ken,

They were founded in the mid 90s. That's definitly not a long standing organisation. I made sure to do my research first.

I have heard that the judges are taught by pictures and not even handling the cats!

Sam
post #36 of 51
Ken - Just checking out the Persian standard for AACE - oh wow I love it, especially since Persians with long roman noses get penalized. PERFECT!
post #37 of 51
I have been around in the show circuit for 30 yrs and know what prices are for pets/show cats. I showed in CFA and ACFA and granded my cats in both associations. I have friends who have/breed/show Persian, Himalayan, MCC, Rex, Siamese, OSH, and most of the breeds.

So I'm more knowledgable then you think I am. I know the cost of breeding and raising cats. Been there, done that and I also know you don't make money on it either. However, I object to breeders who are charging 3 or 4 times the price of a kitten just because they can get it.

In the 70's/80's I've heard of people taking a $300 pet kitten to New York City and selling that kitten at a show for $800-1,000 just because someone stopped in the show and impulsed bought a "cute little kitten" and had the cash to pay for it.

Was that the right thing to do? To some it might have been; to those who care about where their kittens go - it was very wrong. It was ripping off the public. I'm not saying every breeder is out there doing that, but it still doesn't make any sense in charging hundreds or thousands of dollars for a PET kitten.

I know good and bad breeders and this includes some of the "top" breeders in the show circuit. There are some I'd never get a cat from - not because of what they are charging for it, but because they don't care who they sell too or what cats they are breeding together. There are rex breeders out there breeding brother/sister and creating heart problems, etc. I know, I've seen the pedigrees.

I'm sure you all love your cats, but IMO why breed cats when you cannot show them? Just because you like a certain "look"? My cats didn't get bred until they were shown and either granded or close to it. I proved I had a good cat. I did my research on lines, etc. And most important I had a waiting list BEFORE anyone was bred.

If and when the traditionals are shown in major associations and proven themselves, then you can charge those same kind of prices. Otherwise, what justification are you using?
post #38 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

In the 70's/80's I've heard of people taking a $300 pet kitten to New York City and selling that kitten at a show for $800-1,000 just because someone stopped in the show and impulsed bought a "cute little kitten" and had the cash to pay for it.
Accounting for inflation alone, that same pet quality kitten that was worth $300 in the 70's would be worth at least $600 today.

We're 35 years in the future here.
post #39 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by WellingtonCats
Ken - Just checking out the Persian standard for AACE - oh wow I love it, especially since Persians with long roman noses get penalized. PERFECT!
Sam,


Thank You!, I know the Breeders will be glad to hear it!! Since they, along with the breed chairs, are the ones that decide the standard. Of course there is one caveat..... Our standards should be similar to the other larger associations, so as not to keep them out of competition, plus we don't want cats that are peculiar looking to the rest of the fancy.

Alot of our members also show in CFA and TICA (I don't), and one of them brought me a newspaper article about one of their cats, from the early 60's.
It was a Persian and the look was Soooooooo different then, I think I prefer them today as then.

I know a couple of UFO judges, and trust me they do handle cats, although I don't exactly know the procedure for them. I know it took me a little over 2 years to be out of probationary status, and that was after a year of training and breeding a cat of my own to Grand Champion. It was harder still because when I started Munchkins were not accepted for championship status sooo all together, I think it took me almost 6 years to become a licensed specialty Judge. AllBreed is a bit harder.... I can't have ANY mistakes in Judging for 2 years, and every eye is on my final sheets... it can be a bit stressfull. But I enjoy it!

**I am now officially done hijacking this thread.... sorry**
post #40 of 51
I am in a rush - have to operate in about 20 mins and do not want tobe ancious before that!! I NEVER breed cats that have not been shown!!!! And never sell for huge prices. What is important to me is the breed, finding a good home and improving the breed. That's it!!! Breeding cats just to breed is not done by credible breeders that I know of. You only should breed if you have the proper genetucs background and ability to understand the standard you are seeking. Cats not shown are sold as pet quality - I just don;t understand your questions about price et al if you have been in the biz for 30 yrs - must be very comnfusing where you live. That's it - I have to take a deep breath and calm down now.

I just do not understand all the assumptions. Please, plesae - let us all not be so judgemental and portray such an angry tone in our writing. That is what comes across to me and we don't need that - or I can't anyway!!! This is about care and compassin for cats!! Not arguments!!

OK, that's it for me!
post #41 of 51
It's all a matter of difference of opinion and preference as far as I can see. I personally much prefer the Applehead or Traditional Siamese over the Modern Wedge Siamese. Because it is my preference, I'm fully prepared to pay far more than $50 for my pet quality Applehead Siamese from a breeder who is keeping their lines pure and breeding with integrity than I would for a Modern Wedge and that is ONLY because I like the way they look better and I love their personality and disposition.

I also agree with Cyberkitten in that the remark about not paying more than $50 was totally unjustified. One has to pay more than that at a pound for a moggie.

I sometimes find Modern Siamese Breeders to be a bit snobbish and I'm hoping that's not where this poster was coming from. Every breed has something wonderful about it that makes it attractive to different folks for different reasons, i.e., Ragdolls - laid back, Bengals - active, Persians - gentle, etc. To put one type of cat down over another just isn't right in my books and that's basically what was done by saying an Applehead pet is not worth more than $50. This poster couldn't be more wrong in my opinion.

My 2 cents for what it's worth and now I'm down off my soapbox.
post #42 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45
I'm sure you all love your cats, but IMO why breed cats when you cannot show them? Just because you like a certain "look"? My cats didn't get bred until they were shown and either granded or close to it. I proved I had a good cat. I did my research on lines, etc. And most important I had a waiting list BEFORE anyone was bred.

If and when the traditionals are shown in major associations and proven themselves, then you can charge those same kind of prices. Otherwise, what justification are you using?
The truth is that some cats cannot be shown. What if you have a cat that hates shows and never does very well because they hate shows? Should you not breed that cat? What if it fits the standard very well or has a trait that your breeding for in your program-should you not breed that cat? NONSENSE!
Just because a cat cant be shown dosen't mean it won't have anything valuable to offer to your breeding program.
I've seen ugly duckling kittens come from grand champion parents, so you can't judge a cat's breed worthyness from a title. Just because the parents are champions doesn't mean the kittens will always be great and just because the parents might not have shown dosen't mean the kittens wont be great.
It only takes one really great kitten to change your whole breeding program and make a huge impact on the breed as a whole. I've seen it happen numerous times in the bengal breed and the parents of those cats wern't even shown because they did not accept silvers for championship status!
Because the bengal breed is advancing so rapidly some of the cats who won titles 2 years ago would'nt stand a chance against the cats in the rings now (IMO). So titles really mean nothing when your trying to accomplish a certain goal, whatever that may be.
post #43 of 51
I realize that all cats cannot be shown. However, if you've shown cats, you know that the standard is, you know what the quality is and you know what you are looking for. You might have one or two the can't be shown but the qualities are there for breeding.

I can't see the point of breeding cats that NONE of them can be shown - you are just adding to the population and the cats looking for homes in the shelters. Go on Petfinders and put in "siamese" and see all the ones sitting there - many of them are the "old fashioned" type of siamese. Then tell me you can still justify breeding your cat because you don't like the modern style that can compete.

My one rex female really didn't like showing much - she didn't like the other cats, but I got her championship and she produced grand champions. Yes some grands don't produce quality. However, if you have too many "pet" quality you will have a hard time ever getting "grand' quality.
post #44 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengalbabe
Because the bengal breed is advancing so rapidly some of the cats who won titles 2 years ago would'nt stand a chance against the cats in the rings now (IMO). So titles really mean nothing when your trying to accomplish a certain goal, whatever that may be.
That is VERY true!
post #45 of 51
It seems to me that bengal breeders have a very different concept of the importance of showing (not just on the boards, but just in general talking to everyone). Showing dosen't seem AS important. Maybe its because bengals are TICA only , because of development, early generations, etc.

I'm just commenting more or less on general attitude being different. I don't think other breeders understand what a different atmosphere it is for this breed. Where other breeds showing is the foundation of the success of a line.

I'm not sure it I'm saying what I'm trying to say .
post #46 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolarityBengals
It seems to me that bengal breeders have a very different concept of the importance of showing (not just on the boards, but just in general talking to everyone). Showing dosen't seem AS important. Maybe its because bengals are TICA only , because of development, early generations, etc.
Well speaking just for us, we regard showing to be very important. Not only does it guide us in what the judges are looking for in the breed standards, but we get to see what other bengal breeders think make good show cats.
We get to see first hand how our cats stack up to other breeders cats.
I don't always agree with the judges decisions at each show, but the idea is to go to numerous shows and get a well rounded idea of how the breed standard is evolving.
I personally believe that showing your cats is crucial at this point in the bengal breed's development.
post #47 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Bengals
Well speaking just for us, we regard showing to be very important. Not only does it guide us in what the judges are looking for in the breed standards, but we get to see what other bengal breeders think make good show cats.
We get to see first hand how our cats stack up to other breeders cats.
I don't always agree with the judges decisions at each show, but the idea is to go to numerous shows and get a well rounded idea of how the breed standard is evolving.
I personally believe that showing your cats is crucial at this point in the bengal breed's development.
I agree with this statement too. But even if your not showing it's best to attand shows. The development of the breed is happening so rapidly that we will get left behind in our breeding goals if we don't at least know whats being produced and how they are comparing to the breed standard.
I just don't agree that a cat is not breed worthy if we don't show them, that's all.
post #48 of 51
I hate(not really) to interupt this argument, but i have an interesting tidbit on appleheads. A man i know that loves cats happens to have an obviously purebred applehead siamese, which he found abandoned and kept. It is a very nice cat, and he wonders if it was a horrible breeder or a horrible owner that abandoned such a nice cat. But i think it is very interesting!
post #49 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by joecool
I hate(not really) to interupt this argument, but i have an interesting tidbit on appleheads. A man i know that loves cats happens to have an obviously purebred applehead siamese, which he found abandoned and kept. It is a very nice cat, and he wonders if it was a horrible breeder or a horrible owner that abandoned such a nice cat. But i think it is very interesting!
Good point Joe. There are some pretty dreadful owners out there that want a furry little kitty then when the kitty acts like a kitty, they want to "get rid of it".

Methinks a lot of responsible, wonderful breeders get bad rep from people who know little to nothing of their dedication and love for the animals they are striving to keep the integrity in the bloodlines.
post #50 of 51
It also might be possible that this kitty (the one joecool was speaking of) is not a siamese at all. Just because it has siamese coloring dosen't make it a siamese. If one knows color genetics of a cat they would understand that.
People are starting to do that with bengals too. Every stray that is found that has a few spots is now labeled as a 'bengal". It drives me nuts because now it looks like there are so many homeless bengals running around. There are plenty of spotted tabbys that do not have an ounce of bengal blood in them and that was the case before the bengal breed ever came into existence! But to make the moggies more adoptable they call them siamese if they have the coloring or bengals if they have some spots.
post #51 of 51
I think the original poster's questions were more than satisfactorily addressed here and since this thread is becoming a free-for-all, it is now time to close it down.

If you all would like, let's start a new thread on the showing/not showing aspect of things, shall we?

~gf~
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