So What don't they understand...

Yes, they know about the four word rule. I spent two sessions explaining how to cite and reference sources. And it is not just the borderlines - one of my 'A' students has lifted half her essay. It is so sad. Most of the plagiarists have not taken an entire essay - but lifted whole paragraphs and re-ordered them to try to hide what they have done. Some have even taken individual sentences from 6 or 8 different sources - so they have done a lot of research! But thanks, all. I will update when I have meted out appropriate punishments.

Originally Posted by jennyranson

These are undergrad sophomores - 19 and 20 years old! Unfortunately some of them have cheated their way through 12 years of school and have no idea that it is wrong. But we spent all last year drumming it into them in smaller essays etc, and they have no excuse now. They will be punished with zeroes and letters to parents. I just feel so personally insulted though. I have to give them this kind of assignment if they are to learn both free expression in English and also research methods, as they have never had either before. I think I am also going to leave this assignment out of the final grades for everyone and I hope peer pressure may work some magic.

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I don't think that is fair. The kids who did well and were HONEST deserve their grade.

Originally Posted by Purr

I don't think that is fair. The kids who did well and were HONEST deserve their grade.

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I agree....if it doesn't count in the long run, what kind of message are you sending? There will be no "do-overs" in the workplace. If they don't learn to deal with the reprecussions of their actions now, they'll be ill prepared for real life. I say, count it on the final grade...those who didn't cheat EARNED their mark, and those who plagerized equally earned ZEROS. They have to learn to deal with the failure now so they can work at changing their habits while there's still time......if they continue on this path of short-cuts and dishonesty in their adult lives, it will mean more than a zero - it will mean unemployment.

Also, these people are 19 and 20!?! This behaviour is ridiculous. Do not let them scam you into thinking that learning to write a proper paper is beyond them! It is lazyness, pure and simple.

Originally Posted by jcat

I have actually experienced kids memorizing articles from TIME, Newsweek, or The Economist for essay tests!

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Originally Posted by bumpy

Actually I have heard of some teachers specifically telling their students to do that ESPECIALLY if English is not their first language AND they have pretty bad command of the language. They even give them tests requiring them to reproduce the model essay from memory.

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And they call themselves teachers? Sorry, but to me they're people who are just too lazy to correct tests/assignments, and can't be bothered to teach the basics of a language.

Originally Posted by jennyranson

Yes, they know about the four word rule. I spent two sessions explaining how to cite and reference sources. And it is not just the borderlines - one of my 'A' students has lifted half her essay. It is so sad. Most of the plagiarists have not taken an entire essay - but lifted whole paragraphs and re-ordered them to try to hide what they have done. Some have even taken individual sentences from 6 or 8 different sources - so they have done a lot of research! But thanks, all. I will update when I have meted out appropriate punishments.

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I just realized you are talking about COLLEGE sophomores; I was thinking 16-year-olds. Oh my. I can't imagine how thoroughly demoralizing this must be for you. Your students should have covered this ground three or four years ago.

And for an A student to do this ... there's no excuse. Just none. How very disappointing.

I can't tell you how many times when I went to Uni in the first year all the warnings we got about plagerism.

In the first week of Uni, I think I heard the same lecture about plagerism at least 10 times!!! If you hadn't got the point by then, then what are you doing at university!!!

I mean how hard is it to reference!!!!

I definately think they should get zero and it should count towards their final grade. They are lucky they are not all being suspended - That would look a lot worse in their future career than a failed subject.

Jenny, I'm so sorry. I know what a dent it is to morale when this happens. That try what you may, offering help and guidance, students still persist in plagiarising. It defeats logic that they would put their degrees at risk in this way, but they still do it, even knowing the risks.

I know from dealing with students who come into our University from Continental Europe, that some of it may be related to the way they learn in school, where rote learning is an accepted method of teaching. Literally, the students read something, remember it and write it down, accepting the written word as authority. They find it a great shock when we expect them to assimilate the information and present their understanding without copying.

Good luck for tomorrow when you discuss this with your Dean.

What kind of college is it, may I ask?
Community college? University?

Take away their computers and make them use typewriters! Hell we never had computers when I was in school. They were just coming out with hand-held calculators back then! These kids need some tough love.

Originally Posted by jcat

And they call themselves teachers? Sorry, but to me they're people who are just too lazy to correct tests/assignments, and can't be bothered to teach the basics of a language.

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Actually those teachers only do that to students who have real trouble with the language or more likely it is done in schools where the students are really academically weak. The test in class is not the main test but rather it is a prepartion test for the main exam. There is this external examination neither marked nor set by the teachers themselves, such as exams like SAT, International Baccalaureate or Cambridge International Examinations.

So their logic is, try as they may, they are not able to get the poor students to produce work above a certain level, which means they will do badly for the external exam, which is the one that counts. Therefore comparing two evils, the teacher decides to ensure that the students get an ok grade for the external examination rather than a poor grade. It could be an example of why some people claim that exams may not really test the students on their ability.

Question: What is your definition of Plagiarism?
Does it only include word for word copy? OR
Does it also include taking an idea from another and putting it in your own words but do not cite it in your footnote or reference? OR More?

I remember when i was 10 i had to hand in an assignment, i got a book and a photocopyer, copied several pages related to the topic, did a front page and handed it in.

I was so scared when she called me up to tell me it was unacceptable!!

Originally Posted by fwan

I remember when i was 10 i had to hand in an assignment, i got a book and a photocopyer, copied several pages related to the topic, did a front page and handed it in.

I was so scared when she called me up to tell me it was unacceptable!!

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I hate to be the one to break this to you, Fwan, but I don't think you have much future as a master criminal.

I know!

I am a terrible liar also!
I cant lie to people because you can just see it on my face and hear it in my voice!

I didn't have to do a full on MLA format with the citations or anything like that until i got to college. We did one essay like that my senior year and at the end he said he wasn't even going to look at the ctitations. I did try to plagarize once and i got a really bad grade. I didnt check for spelling or anyhting and my teacher asked me if i really wrote it and i admitted i didnt. He gave me a second chance and i had to redo the essay and have it on his desk in two day. He had the original assignment was like two months worth of research. I was still in high school. College is a different ballgame. They signed what was in essence a contract. Give them zero's this time and make this count toward their final grade. They will learn that way and if they don't, report them to the admin.
I learned my lesson and i write everyhting myself now!

I did full MLA when I was in 9th grade, and the kids that cheated were failed in the class and had to make it up. that simple.. I realize that right now Bosnia is backwards with this stuff (research papers & so forth.. my mum didn't get them at all when I was in HS.. she said that stuff was meant for college, but this could just be her?) But goodness. you set guidelines and they know better!