Siamese coloring

I currently have a female flamepoint siamese. Her father was a flamepoint, and her mother was a torti (sp?). I am planning on getting a male to breed with her, preferably a sealpoint. Now I was told that sealpoint coloring is dominant over flame, and most of the kittens would end up sealpoint. Since I want a fair mix between the 2, I was going to look for a male whose parents were a sealpoint and a flamepoint. Now a local woman has some purebread siamese kittens. The mother is a sealpoint, and she believes the father is a chocolate point. She cant tell yet as to what colors the kittens will be since she says the color will change when the are a little older (they are 3 weeks now).

My question is, if I were to get a male sealpoint from this woman, what kind of color distribution could I expect? Could I still expect to see mostly/all sealpoints? Or would throwing that chocolate in there give me some seal, some flame, and some chocolate?

Thx,
Chris

I cant tell you colors due to not being a breeder of anything... But I can tell you dont have a breeding mentor by the ?? you are asking I would suggest getting one way before planning to breed... DO you have breeding rights for your little girl???

You do not have a "flamepoint" Siamese as there is no such thing as a "flamepoint" Siamese in any registry. So consequently, you must have a Red Point. What registry association holds her pedigree? If you look at the top of her pedigree certificate, it should tell you what her Breed/Color may actually be. When you acquired her, did you also purchase breeding rights?

For educational purposes only, the answer to your question regarding the potential colors of kittens produced between a Red Point and a Seal Point - depending on what other colors were carried, all the females from such a mating would be torties and all the males would be red.

Sharky brings up a very valid point. From your questions in the original post, it is obvious to me that you currently do not have enough information to breed your girl and should now spay her.

Originally Posted by gayef

You do not have a "flamepoint" Siamese as there is no such thing as a "flamepoint" Siamese in any registry. So consequently, you must have a Red Point. What registry association holds her pedigree? If you look at the top of her pedigree certificate, it should tell you what her Breed/Color may actually be. When you acquired her, did you also purchase breeding rights?

For educational purposes only, the answer to your question regarding the potential colors of kittens produced between a Red Point and a Seal Point - depending on what other colors were carried, all the females from such a mating would be torties and all the males would be red.

Sharky brings up a very valid point. From your questions in the original post, it is obvious to me that you currently do not have enough information to breed your girl and should now spay her.

Click to expand...

Just a bit of hijacking here. Gaye, you made a point that I didn't know about. Bijou's breeder has "red" points and she also refers to them as "flame" points. Is it possible that in Canada we call reds flames?

I was going to post on here and say how stupid the name flame point is. Good on ya Gaye for the education!

Originally Posted by WellingtonCats

I was going to post on here and say how stupid the name flame point is. Good on ya Gaye for the education!

Click to expand...

On a purely phonetic level, I much prefer the word flame to red. That could be because I'm not a real lover of anything red.

Originally Posted by Jaded78

I currently have a female flamepoint siamese. Her father was a flamepoint, and her mother was a torti (sp?). I am planning on getting a male to breed with her, preferably a sealpoint. Now I was told that sealpoint coloring is dominant over flame, and most of the kittens would end up sealpoint. Since I want a fair mix between the 2, I was going to look for a male whose parents were a sealpoint and a flamepoint. Now a local woman has some purebread siamese kittens. The mother is a sealpoint, and she believes the father is a chocolate point. She cant tell yet as to what colors the kittens will be since she says the color will change when the are a little older

Click to expand...

I can't answer your questions because I don't know about siamese genetics. However, I do have a question about the breeder you talked to. Your post says "she believes the father is a chocolate point" , how could she not know for sure who the father is? Does she just have all of her cats breeding whoever? Does'nt sound like a reputable breeder to me. I'd be careful about dealing with a breeder who isn't sure what cat parented the kitten that you are thinking about purchasing!

Originally Posted by Yosemite

On a purely phonetic level, I much prefer the word flame to red. That could be because I'm not a real lover of anything red.

Click to expand...

Ha, yeah that does sound a little more fancy. I always heard the term "flame point" too. Does it make a difference if the cat is a traditional siamese?

Originally Posted by bengalbabe

Ha, yeah that does sound a little more fancy. I always heard the term "flame point" too. Does it make a difference if the cat is a traditional siamese?

Click to expand...

Good point also. I know on a UK site where the majority of the folks breed the modern wedge shaped head Siamese, they also refer to them as red points and had not recognized the term flamepoint.

since the topic is siamese colors I have a question too is chestnut and cinnamon the same color? and are they more red than chocolate? thanks for any help!

Originally Posted by Yosemite

Just a bit of hijacking here. Gaye, you made a point that I didn't know about. Bijou's breeder has "red" points and she also refers to them as "flame" points. Is it possible that in Canada we call reds flames?

Click to expand...

No, from what I understand, Linda - "flame point" refers to cats of the Himalayan breed.

Originally Posted by bengalbabe

Ha, yeah that does sound a little more fancy. I always heard the term "flame point" too. Does it make a difference if the cat is a traditional siamese?

Click to expand...

There is no such breed as a Traditional Siamese.

To me flame is just so over the top, they look red so I'm glad we haven't developed any stupid rule over here about "flames".

Originally Posted by WellingtonCats

I was going to post on here and say how stupid the name flame point is. Good on ya Gaye for the education!

Click to expand...

*smile* Thanks, Sam.

I think I might have omitted some info in my post. Im not doing this to breed show cats, nor do I have my siamese registered. I just love cats and would like to try to breed her. I know Im new at this but hardly think that calls for spaying her...or taking her out back and shooting her. I am in Canada, maybe its just a Canadian thing calling them flame points, she is all white, with orange nose, ears, tail, and a bit on the paws. The lady with the siamese kittens thinks her male is a chocolate siamese I guess because she is a novice like me and both chocolate and sealpoint have dark tips. So I you dont think I would end up with any sealpoints by mixing a sealpoint with a "red" point? I had been told the sealpoint color was dominant and would likely end up with all sealpoints.

Chris

Originally Posted by Jaded78

I think I might have omitted some info in my post. Im not doing this to breed show cats, nor do I have my siamese registered. I just love cats and would like to try to breed her. I know Im new at this but hardly think that calls for spaying her...or taking her out back and shooting her.

I am in Canada, maybe its just a Canadian thing calling them flame points, she is all white, with orange nose, ears, tail, and a bit on the paws. The lady with the siamese kittens thinks her male is a chocolate siamese I guess because she is a novice like me and both chocolate and sealpoint have dark tips. So I you dont think I would end up with any sealpoints by mixing a sealpoint with a "red" point? I had been told the sealpoint color was dominant and would likely end up with all sealpoints.

Chris

Click to expand...

On here you will find little to no support for breeding any non registered and non breeding quality cat... Please spay her , it is not a mean thing it is the best thing if you are not plannning to be a serious breeder... I am sure the breeder s will come and explain this in better terms..

If you desire to rear kittens , please foster a kitty from the shelter ...

I see, I didnt realize this was such an elite club. I didnt have any intentions on diluting or lessening the breed in any way. My siamese is a purebred, and the kitten I would be buying is also pure. I am not intending to breed so that I can have a houseful of them myself, but rather to allow others in my area to also have a siamese kitten of their own if they wish. I already have 2 other cats from a shelter. I didn't mean to waste anyone's time.

Chris

It is not an "elite" club ... please read this article....http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52744

Originally Posted by Jaded78

I see, I didnt realize this was such an elite club. I didnt have any intentions on diluting or lessening the breed in any way. My siamese is a purebred, and the kitten I would be buying is also pure. I am not intending to breed so that I can have a houseful of them myself, but rather to allow others in my area to also have a siamese kitten of their own if they wish. I already have 2 other cats from a shelter. I didn't mean to waste anyone's time.

Chris

Click to expand...

But the problem is you WILL be lessining the breed if you breed non-registered animals and if you breed without sufficient knowledge of the breed. Were not trying to pick on you but breeders out there that are irresponsible make it very hard on responsible breeders because people tend to put us all in one catagory. Responsible breeders use a lot of money in buying the best breeding stock and showing. They use a lot of time to further thier knowledge of the breed so they can help to improve the breed. It's simpley not fair to responsible breeders for those to come along and breed non-registered, non qualified cats and turn them over for quick profit. That forces responsible breeds who have spent an enormas amount of time and money to reduce thier prices and it make it harder for them to find good homes for thier kittens. It's hard enough finantually to be a good breeder and we do it because we love the breed. You can see why we would not be so supportive of someone who simply 'wants siamese kittens and wants others to have them too'.

Originally Posted by Jaded78

I think I might have omitted some info in my post. Im not doing this to breed show cats, nor do I have my siamese registered. I just love cats and would like to try to breed her. I know Im new at this but hardly think that calls for spaying her...or taking her out back and shooting her.

Click to expand...

Oh heavens, no one even came close to suggesting that you shoot the little darling! Chris, please understand that what you propose to do is simply not ethical. Having a love of cats is indeed a requirement, but there is oh-but-so-much more to breeding than this. The bottom line is simple - if your cat is not registered, then the only ethical thing to do is to spay her. Allowing your girl to have kittens simply for the sake of populating your area with them is just wrong when there are currently way too many cats residing in shelters and rescues, waiting for the open door of a forever home and a loving heart to cherish them.

If you will indulge me for a moment ...

When I was in my mid-twenties (I'm an old harpy now *smile*) I too wanted to begin breeding. But someone very, very wise stepped in and had the "come to Jesus" discussion with me and thankfully, this person was able to dissuade me from making what would inevitably turn out to be a colossal mistake - not only for me, but more importantly, for my cat and for the breed at large. It has only been within the last several years that I have been able to finally realize my goal and begin breeding. During the time I was forced to wait before beginning, I educated myself ... I read ~everything~ I could get my hands on, I talked to many long-time, experienced breeders, I researched pedigrees and bloodlines, I learned what health/genetic issues were inherent to the breed and I began saving the money I needed to finance it all. Even when the time was finally right, it was an additional three years before anyone would trust me enough to sell me breeding cats.

If you want to breed Siamese because you love them, fine. That can be a good foundation for you to build upon. But make sure you know all about them first. And forgive me, but it is quite obvious that you don't know what you are doing at present.

Originally Posted by Jaded78

I am in Canada, maybe its just a Canadian thing calling them flame points, she is all white, with orange nose, ears, tail, and a bit on the paws. The lady with the siamese kittens thinks her male is a chocolate siamese I guess because she is a novice like me and both chocolate and sealpoint have dark tips. So I you dont think I would end up with any sealpoints by mixing a sealpoint with a "red" point? I had been told the sealpoint color was dominant and would likely end up with all sealpoints.

Click to expand...

It isn't just a Canadian thing, my dear. The term "Flame Point" denotes a cat of the Himalayan breed in all registries. If someone refers to a Siamese as a Flame Point, they are patently wrong in doing so.

While it is correct that Chocolate and Seal both do have dark points, there is a marked difference between them color-wise. I take it since this lady doesn't know for certain what point color her cat is that her cats are not registered either. If they were, she would know for a certainty and would not have to "think" her male is a Chocolate Point.

Both of you need to understand that even though you love Siamese, by breeding these cats with little to no knowledge of their genetics and other important factors, you are actually doing them great harm. And by producing kittens simply for the sake of producing kittens, you are adding to the overpopulation crisis.

I strongly encourage you to keep reaching for your dream - it is not my intention to dissuade you from breeding. But do it right. If I can help, I will. But my own standard of personal ethics prevents me from supporting you in any breeding endeavor you may wish to undertake at this time.

First I perfer to call "flamepoint" REDPOINT. Its "flame" in persians. Now to your question. Think of it as "red" and the seal point as "black". If the male is seal point carrying chocolate, you will get tortie points for any females. I believe you may have either seal tortie points or a chance of chocolate torties (chocolate torties may be a dilute type version). Your male kittens would be redpoints because your female probably is not a dilute creampoint carrier.

So to summerize:

Males - redpoints
Females - seal or chocolate tortie points

You will not get any solid seal points or solid chocolate points from those two cats.

Since you will only get the above, it will be very easy to sex the kittens - and you can learn how to tell the difference for future reference.

BTW WHY do you want to breed your Siamese? Have you studied the pedigrees and what is your goal? The only reason to breed a cat is to improve the breed - not to just breed cause its "purebred, pretty, etc."