Question About Persians

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scamperfarms

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Originally Posted by WellingtonCats

I can't agree with the posters above me enough. Very proud to see your post Katie, we need more new breeders like you.


If you had a bad genetic trait you woudn't just keep having babies and thinking well it's their problem you've got to live with it. Also you did say yourself that you thought your breeder had trouble selling him because of his kinks. Just think what happens when you end up with lots of litters of kinked pet quality kittens but can't sell them because, well, they have kinks?

We're not trying to get at you - just encourage you to start off your breeding programme correctly.
Thanks Sam
I may be knew to actually having my own cattery but certainly not new to genetics, and standards. Having been breeding the horses for sometime. I wouldnt ever tream of breeding a pigeon toed, or cowhocked mare....I only wish Horse Spays were not as dangerous as they were. So many people breed a mare just cause they have one.

Breeding is all about education, knowledge, and having a plan to put into action. not action first...
 

wellingtoncats

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Yup, absolutely! I know you're not new to the whole breeding scene but it's just nice to breath a sigh of relief that we have somebody else out there who just isn't it for the money!
 

scamperfarms

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Originally Posted by WellingtonCats

Yup, absolutely! I know you're not new to the whole breeding scene but it's just nice to breath a sigh of relief that we have somebody else out there who just isn't it for the money!
Tell ya if I was in it for the money I would be rich off the horses already LMAO....yeaaahh riggghhhtttt...

I actually dont mind taking the cats to the vet compared to when the horsey vet comes to town! LOL

But I understand the sigh of relief. I always arch a brow when I hear breeding talk in the Arabian circles..and keep my eyes peeled lol
 
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notme1295

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I still don't understand why it's unethical to breed pets-only. I personally think it's sad that cats will be bred for the purpose of going to a cat show and being judged, or being bred just to breed for more breeders and show cats. A cat to me is a pet, bottom line. The interest I have in Persians is not about breeding or showing, it's about having one as a pet because the breed itself interests me. And I don't see anything wrong with wanted a Persian or any other cat for a pet. If I were to breed, it would be so that someone else who wants a Persian would get one, at a young age, and there would be contractual requirements in terms of if the placement didn't work out, etc. I haven't made my decision but I think that when people come from different frames of mind in how they view cats - as pets or as things to be shown off and bred - there might not be much meeting of the minds. I've had cats all my life and know perfectly well what un-altered boy cats are like.
 
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notme1295

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Also, I don't plan to breed this cat. Not because of the tail or because of anything that is "wrong" with him or with my beliefs about this issue, but because that isn't the main reason I got him. I don't want to contribute to pet overpopulation or worry about what became of my kittens who don't meet all these standards everyone is talking to. I guess I just thought breeding was about love of the breed, not creating 100% perfect show cats or cats whose lives are spent breeding. That idea is a little much for my conscience, as I view cats as pets who should be spoiled, nurtured, and loved-- kinked tail or not. If breeding has a different philosophy, I don't see myself doing it. At least not with this kitten who as perfect as I think he is, doesn't meet breed standards.
 

solaritybengals

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I dont' think anyone is questioning that your cat won't be the most wonderful pet regardless of standard. Cats in any shape, size, etc are wonderful creatures. If you are interested in Persians and really want to learn everything you can about them (which all breeders should about their breed) then join a breeders association and read everything possible - you don't have to be a breeder usually to join one. Also understand the responsibilities you have as a breeder. These decisions are difficult to make. Breeding has always been about perfecting teh breed, in both looks and just as importantly personality. But the cat needs the whole package because there are soooo many to choose from. Those that have minor faults are put into loving pet homes. Those that meet every criterion are sold as breeders, this insures the longevity of a breed.

Its all ethics in the end. I guess teh easiest way is to ask if you would breed a moggie? Probably not, right? Because there are already so many that need homes. Just because they have a great personality and are the most loving cat dosne't mean they should be bred. Only the cats that meet everything should pass on their genes to a new generation.
 

scamperfarms

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And here we go again. Breeders LOVE their cats. They LOVE the breed. That is why we chose to become breeders. For preservation of the breed we love. But as those held to the standard of preserving the breed we love. when selecting those who will and will not breed we have to be objective. That does not say we love the animal any less at ALL for not being perfect. I love every cat in my house. 14 of them. only 4 are breeder's everyone else is not. No one gets any less care than anyone else. These are my children. They get what they need before I get what i need period. Bottom Line. No if's ands or butts about it. I am not one of the theory that thinks every breeder cat must be shown.But shows are a good resource. and if you wish to be a breeder you need to at least ATTEND to see what the standards are. Breeders have contracts because we love our babies. we have screening because we love our babies. There is nothing wrong with someone wanting a Persian as a pet. Infact I am all for it. But you shouldnt breed for the exclusive purpose of prodoceing "none show quality/none breeder quality" just because an animal is breeder quality doesnt mean a breeder wont sell it for Pet quality. They will. Good home is always the plus.

And..to also note. Breeders do not spend their whole life breeding. Several years than they are fixed. Some breeders will keep them if they can. others will find a loving PET home for them.
 

sims2fan

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Originally Posted by notme1295

A cat to me is a pet, bottom line. The interest I have in Persians is not about breeding or showing, it's about having one as a pet because the breed itself interests me.
Then just let your pet be a pet! There are plenty of breeders out there that your family/friends can go to for pets. Breeders who do this to further the breed will often have pet quality kittens, because not every kitten will be show quality. There are lots of shelters that have persians resulting from pet only backyard breeding.

If you want to breed to further the breed itself, make it better, go right ahead and start reading books and learning about breeding. Otherwise neuter your cat and enjoy him!

I am not attacking you by the way. You see the picture of Dani in my signature? She is my little kitten who died a week after I got her because she was too young. Her breeder lied about her age and sold her to me far too young, she had too many litters and not enough space. This is an example of what can go wrong and the heartbreak it causes.
 

imagyne

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Originally Posted by notme1295

Also, I don't plan to breed this cat. Not because of the tail or because of anything that is "wrong" with him or with my beliefs about this issue, but because that isn't the main reason I got him. I don't want to contribute to pet overpopulation or worry about what became of my kittens who don't meet all these standards everyone is talking to.
I for one (among many) am glad that you aren't going to breed your cat.
Originally Posted by notme1295

I guess I just thought breeding was about love of the breed, not creating 100% perfect show cats or cats whose lives are spent breeding.
Breeding IS about the Love of the breed, and for that reason Breeders breed their cats to make the good things better and the bad things go away. The breed standards are standards that are made by the breeders themselves, not just to show, but to make a better cat. Without the Standards (ethical and otherwise) that we, as breeders go by, there would not only be all sorts of diiferent traits among a breed of cat, but some pretty serious problems as well. By that I mean, problems where the cats die young for no apparent reason.
Originally Posted by notme1295

That idea is a little much for my conscience, as I view cats as pets who should be spoiled, nurtured, and loved-- kinked tail or not. If breeding has a different philosophy, I don't see myself doing it. At least not with this kitten who as perfect as I think he is, doesn't meet breed standards.
Okay, perhaps you Don't understand, we LOVE our cats, we aren't in it for the money, I have yet to meet a reputable, ethical breeder that does make money on breeding. All of our cats, Breeders or Pets are loved and cared for for as if they were our own children. For that reason we won't breed a cat that has a potential for a defect that could affect either the look OR the health of the offspring.
We don't breed to to make show cats either... Many of the cats we place ARE show quality, but will never show because the owner doesn't want to, they, like you, just want to love their cat and spoil it, but the point is they could show it if they wanted.

That's why people should never just go headlong into breeding, they don't know all the potential pitfalls that could befall them, nor do they know all the work that has gone into getting a breed to be as genetically sound as possible. Without that knowledge, there is always the chance that old genetic faults that have thought to be eradicated could pop up again, setting the breed back many many years.
Hope that helps clarify your perception of what ethical breeding is about.
 

goldenkitty45

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Most of the kittens I bred (cornish rex) were very showable (some grand champion material). But out of all the ones I produced only a few actually got shown to champion or grand because the people wanted them as pets - not show. I only had 2-3 that were "pet" quality.

I would rather produce a top cat that was loved at home then to produce inferior pets just cause the person wanted a pet. If the owners decided later to get into showing, they would have a good cat to show. If they bought a pet quality and wanted to show that cat, they couldn't.

Keep in mind - YOU BREED TO PRODUCE A BETTER HEALTHIER CAT AND TO IMPROVE THE BREED. That should be your #1 goal - anything else is not acceptable to be breeding IMO.
 
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notme1295

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I think this whole thing is foolish. You breed to breed, to standards that have little to do with the actual quality of life of the breed. Oh, so my cat's tail is crooked. That means he is unhealthy? That means a crooked tail down a line of Persians is incompatible with love of the breed? Puh-lease. So he wouldn't win a cat show. So the heck what. And what the heck difference does it make if there's a perfect cat who lives up to all the breed standards who's a pet, and an imperfect one who doesn't who is also a pet. They are THE SAME. CATS. Does my cat know or care that his tail is crooked? Uh... no. He knows he gets petted and brushed and fed and loved. Just as a "perfect" cat would. There are too many cats to begin with and I guess this is how people justify breeding at all, that there are these "standards" that someone thought up for certain cats that look a certain way. But I guess if it helps to really believe that it's doing good, then clapclapclap. You can breed your perfect cat, sell it to someone who shows it for a year or two or breeds it for a year or two, then it will spend the rest of its life like any other cat would-- no more special, no more perfect. But still an intentional birth of a cat when there are many who need homes already, minus the year or two when there would be a difference to distinguish them from show/breeder cats.

I don't see me breeding my cat any different than any of you breeding yours. For the above reasons and for those already explained. It's a shady business if you ask me, and an excuse for people who want to either make money (which you do, and don't even bs about the cost of cat food haha), or to justify bringing more cats into the world when so many get killed every day in shelters. Booooooooo.
 

gayef

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I think this whole thing is foolish. You breed to breed, to standards that have little to do with the actual quality of life of the breed.
I think we have all tried to help you understand that the standards are there to protect quality of life - however, you have chosen to see it your own way and I am not certain there is anything more that anyone here can say to dissuade you from that.

Oh, so my cat's tail is crooked. That means he is unhealthy? That means a crooked tail down a line of Persians is incompatible with love of the breed? Puh-lease.
No, it doesn't mean he is unhealthy. It ~does~ mean that he shouldn't be used in an ethical and responsible breeding program. It does means that down the line of Persians, that kinked tail could display as a kitten with a shortened spine, or worse, the inability to properly digest and eliminate - it means that the propensity for harm to the breed is there. That is why he shouldn't be bred. Not because someone thinks he is incompatible with the love of the breed. Puh-lease try to understand this.

So he wouldn't win a cat show. So the heck what. And what the heck difference does it make if there's a perfect cat who lives up to all the breed standards who's a pet, and an imperfect one who doesn't who is also a pet. They are THE SAME. CATS. Does my cat know or care that his tail is crooked? Uh... no. He knows he gets petted and brushed and fed and loved. Just as a "perfect" cat would.
Most breeders register their cats with popular pedigree registry associations - and as a part of a breeder's commitment to their chosen breed, the registry associations strongly encourage breeders to show their cats in competition. In some, it is a requirement of registry. You are, of course, absolutely right in saying that show cats or pets cats are all one and the same. They are both dearly loved and spoiled smelly rotten. Just because a cat isn't shown doesn't mean we don't love it just as much or that it isn't perfect. Such a cat IS loved and IS perfect in the eyes of the person who chooses to open their home and heart to him or her. Rosettes and ribbons don't mean jack to those who love these kitties. But to breeders, it is an affirmation of their hard work and commitment to the breed. It is the positive result of a lot of time, money and effort to breed healthy, beautiful cats which are outstanding examples of the breed. It is the reward for the research, the triumphs and the tears, the heartbreaks and the joy of raising pedigreed cats.

There are too many cats to begin with and I guess this is how people justify breeding at all, that there are these "standards" that someone thought up for certain cats that look a certain way. But I guess if it helps to really believe that it's doing good, then clapclapclap.
Your sarcasm isn't winning you friends here. And as a Moderator, it borders on being in violation of the Forums Guidelines. I would respectfully ask you simply to agree to disagree with us instead of lashing out in what appears to be a bit of anger and frustration directed at those who are trying to help you. No one said you shouldn't breed. We only suggested that this boy is not the cat to start your program with if you want to breed responsibly.

You can breed your perfect cat, sell it to someone who shows it for a year or two or breeds it for a year or two, then it will spend the rest of its life like any other cat would-- no more special, no more perfect. But still an intentional birth of a cat when there are many who need homes already, minus the year or two when there would be a difference to distinguish them from show/breeder cats.
The intentional birth of a cat whose ancestry and genetic issues have been thoroughly researched and considered ... whose breeder has taken the time to have a good working knowledge of animal husbandry and who is fully aware of the risks associated with breeding a line so that they are prepared for the outcome be what may ... and whose early years are spent being adored by both judge and spectator alike - that is the difference here. You are proposing breeding your cat (with a known genetic issue) simply to provide pets (who may or may not carry or display that known genetic issue) to the people in your area when there are already way too many homeless cats in shelters and in rescues. By doing so, you are guilty of taking away a potential home for one or more of those needy cats. That is the difference.

I don't see me breeding my cat any different than any of you breeding yours. For the above reasons and for those already explained. It's a shady business if you ask me, and an excuse for people who want to either make money (which you do, and don't even bs about the cost of cat food haha), or to justify bringing more cats into the world when so many get killed every day in shelters. Booooooooo
You are not at all like me nor are you like any of the others breeders who have taken time from their busy lives to address your questions here. As for the money issue, let me just toss you a little clue ... you are wrong and you are welcome to examine my cattery's "books" in the way of proving that you are wrong. I am WAY in the red with expenses and I don't even consider cat food simply because I would have cats whether I was breeding them or not - they ALL have to be fed. So, your comments about money are patently incorrect.

As for the "bringing more cats into the world" comment, you are contradicting yourself here - isn't that exactly what YOU wanted to do?????
 
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