I would like to start breeding Siamese (Wedge Heads specifically) though probably not immediately since money is a bit tight at the moment. Does anyone have any suggestions? I want to do this right!
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Breeding Siamese
- Thread starter cherriey
- Start Date
I don't breed, although I do have a little Wedgy headed girl, SunLee. I got her from a breeder here in California. You might go on the net, and try to contact some breeders and ask them how you go about starting a breeding program.
Awesome. Make sure you research it up to the max first. We have a few Siamese breeders here that would probably be happy to help you on your journey.
Just a hint, make sure you are financially capable first of all - there are a lot of costs involved with successful breeding.
Just a hint, make sure you are financially capable first of all - there are a lot of costs involved with successful breeding.
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- #4
That's what my dad keeps telling me. =0) I don't mind the financial advice though hearing it in predictable loops does tend to get a little old. lol
My dad thinks I'm crazy for doing this. I've come to the determination that most men just don't understand. My fiance is ok with it, anything to keep me from having my own babies anytime soon.
Start with 1 female when you feel you have the money. Most likely you'll have to wait a year anyway before she reaches maturity (I'm still in the waiting process right now). Then stud her in her 3rd heat or so. Don't go into any deals that want your best kitten. If your just starting out you need to have the ability to keep your own best kitten to expand and develope your own line. Sometimes breeders will take a future kitten, which might be your best deal. Otherwise plan on paying stud fees.
If you can get a breeder as a mentor (preferably within your breed) then you will be ok having immediate advice from a phone number in case something happens and you need a quick answer. Usually the person you get your kitten from will be willing to work with you.
I'd go ahead and join a breeders associations for your breed so you can get all the advice possible before you start.
Start with 1 female when you feel you have the money. Most likely you'll have to wait a year anyway before she reaches maturity (I'm still in the waiting process right now). Then stud her in her 3rd heat or so. Don't go into any deals that want your best kitten. If your just starting out you need to have the ability to keep your own best kitten to expand and develope your own line. Sometimes breeders will take a future kitten, which might be your best deal. Otherwise plan on paying stud fees.
If you can get a breeder as a mentor (preferably within your breed) then you will be ok having immediate advice from a phone number in case something happens and you need a quick answer. Usually the person you get your kitten from will be willing to work with you.
I'd go ahead and join a breeders associations for your breed so you can get all the advice possible before you start.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #6
This is some great advice, guys! I'm taking all of it into my 'use when you get money' notebook. =0) I have a rented book on cat breeds and colors that I've been reading; so far some of my favorite Siamese colors are: Seal Lynx Point, most of the Tortie Points, and those are my main favorites... though the Seal Point is also amazing for the color of blue in the eyes that seems to jump out of their faces. Breeding seems so far away right now. *sighs* But I know I need to have patience if I want to do this right. I live in a small rural area... how difficult is it to advertise and find a market from here?
I'd say be sure to buy your first cat from a breeder that will mentor you. I found lots of breeders along the way that were willing to answer all of my questions even stupid ones and that was and still is a big help to me.
Don't go too fast. Read, read ,read and when your sick of reading, read some more and when your finished with that read everything all over again.
Don't go too fast. Read, read ,read and when your sick of reading, read some more and when your finished with that read everything all over again.
Personally I would not start breeding until you've been showing for awhile. Why? Because if you show cats, you'll learn a lot more of what "quality" is and you will be able to make contacts with other Siamese breeders. Talk to them and listen to their advice. Study pedigrees and lines and see what you like.
Its not a case of putting 2 cats together and having kittens. You should know what you are really doing and why. This takes years of research, not a few months.
When I started in rexes, I showed in the alter class. In the meantime, I read pedigrees, learned who had the rexes I liked, and which lines to avoid. I had a rex breeder mentor on the breed. That's what you need to do. Established breeders do not want to hand over breeding cats to someone they don't know. Breeding cats are high price. If you get a cheap price, you will get poor quality cats and you cannot produce good cats from poor ones.
Keep studying the breed and pedigrees now. Your first cat should be a nice show alter and have fun with. Breeding is hard work and time consuming as well as financial. Expect to be paying over $500 for a breeding Siamese female (probably higher).
A good breeder also has a contract when selling kittens. Any kittens that are pet quality (learn the difference between pet and show) should be neutered/spayed. YOU are responsible for every kitten you produce. Be prepared to take back kittens if something happens and the person can't keep the kitten (or help them find a new home).
Siamese are very talkative and unless you live in a single family home, your neighbors may object to the constant crying when in heat. Siamese also mature a lot sooner then you think. You don't want to breed your female more then once a year. She needs time to recover.
Good luck and please think long and hard about becoming a breeder. Its a lot more work then you think.
Its not a case of putting 2 cats together and having kittens. You should know what you are really doing and why. This takes years of research, not a few months.
When I started in rexes, I showed in the alter class. In the meantime, I read pedigrees, learned who had the rexes I liked, and which lines to avoid. I had a rex breeder mentor on the breed. That's what you need to do. Established breeders do not want to hand over breeding cats to someone they don't know. Breeding cats are high price. If you get a cheap price, you will get poor quality cats and you cannot produce good cats from poor ones.
Keep studying the breed and pedigrees now. Your first cat should be a nice show alter and have fun with. Breeding is hard work and time consuming as well as financial. Expect to be paying over $500 for a breeding Siamese female (probably higher).
A good breeder also has a contract when selling kittens. Any kittens that are pet quality (learn the difference between pet and show) should be neutered/spayed. YOU are responsible for every kitten you produce. Be prepared to take back kittens if something happens and the person can't keep the kitten (or help them find a new home).
Siamese are very talkative and unless you live in a single family home, your neighbors may object to the constant crying when in heat. Siamese also mature a lot sooner then you think. You don't want to breed your female more then once a year. She needs time to recover.
Good luck and please think long and hard about becoming a breeder. Its a lot more work then you think.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #9
Awesome! I love to read anyways so as long as my brother allows me the computer long enough to do research it'll be perfect!
I didn't really have any indication concerning the work level; that's one of the reasons I was looking for suggestions and advice. =0)
Concerning showing alters... I was planning on doing that anyways. I don't know if I'll be showing Popcorn yet or not. My mom wants a kitten from her so I might need to look for another kitten (quite possibly rescue a siamese mix with more than a few siamese habits) for showing. I'm really curious to see what kind of kittens Popcorn has as well. If even one has her personality it will be worth it!
Just out of curiostity does anyone have a rough idea of what it costs to show a HHP from the price of spay/neuter to show day? I've been seeing all sorts of things that have to do with it and am a little overwhelmed... I haven't attempted to tally it all up for a future budget!
I didn't really have any indication concerning the work level; that's one of the reasons I was looking for suggestions and advice. =0)
Concerning showing alters... I was planning on doing that anyways. I don't know if I'll be showing Popcorn yet or not. My mom wants a kitten from her so I might need to look for another kitten (quite possibly rescue a siamese mix with more than a few siamese habits) for showing. I'm really curious to see what kind of kittens Popcorn has as well. If even one has her personality it will be worth it!
Just out of curiostity does anyone have a rough idea of what it costs to show a HHP from the price of spay/neuter to show day? I've been seeing all sorts of things that have to do with it and am a little overwhelmed... I haven't attempted to tally it all up for a future budget!
It's expensive to breed. I have to have a full time job just to support my breeding "habit" ~ lol. If you factor showing into it you'll really be into the red. You really have to look at your intentions for breeding. If you think you'll make money then you probably should'nt breed. There's a million things that can and do go wrong.
Sometimes it's not easy to sell the kittens either (depending on time of year, area where you live in, ect.). Be prepaird to take care of any kittens that might take awhile to sell and don't breed any more untill they do sell. If you do you'll probably end up with a kitty mill.
Like said earlier, if you do decide to breed start out with ONE female and be sure she fits the breed standard at least well enough to be a qualified breeder.
I don't agree you need to show first as I don't like the show scene and there are a lot of good breeders who don't show but if you want to learn first hand what a show quality cat looks like you could attand shows-preferably with a breeder mentor. Ask lots of questions!
Sometimes it's not easy to sell the kittens either (depending on time of year, area where you live in, ect.). Be prepaird to take care of any kittens that might take awhile to sell and don't breed any more untill they do sell. If you do you'll probably end up with a kitty mill.
Like said earlier, if you do decide to breed start out with ONE female and be sure she fits the breed standard at least well enough to be a qualified breeder.
I don't agree you need to show first as I don't like the show scene and there are a lot of good breeders who don't show but if you want to learn first hand what a show quality cat looks like you could attand shows-preferably with a breeder mentor. Ask lots of questions!
The infamous, how to make a small fortune in breeding...start with a large one. You have gotten alot of good advice here! read read read find mentors anything you can do. If you want to take it a step further like I did. take some Feline Husbandry and Animal Genetics classes as well. Make sure you know about general feline genetic issues, as well as breed type genetic issues.
I am with bengal babe that you dont NEED to show. But you should attend some. Watch whats winning. talk to breeders. Shows are great ways to find good breeders. I dont show my Arabians. I dont like the politics in the horse show world. and I also dont like the show style halter horses they bred out the function. BUT i do compete (well did..waiting on raising up and starting a new mount) in Endurance races. Just make sure you are bettering the breed
thats the most important thing.
and be pepared for the work. I am always doing something with the critters around here. but i wouldnt trade it for the world
I am with bengal babe that you dont NEED to show. But you should attend some. Watch whats winning. talk to breeders. Shows are great ways to find good breeders. I dont show my Arabians. I dont like the politics in the horse show world. and I also dont like the show style halter horses they bred out the function. BUT i do compete (well did..waiting on raising up and starting a new mount) in Endurance races. Just make sure you are bettering the breed
and be pepared for the work. I am always doing something with the critters around here. but i wouldnt trade it for the world
This is very important because you do not want any of your kittens to end up in a shelter environment. Responsible breeders take precautions to ensure that their cats and the kittens they produce are kept out of the shelter system.
Katie
Yes, it is!! While I don't want to harp on the financial aspects of it, you ~must~ be prepared. One queen requiring an emergency c-section can easily zap your entire savings! Bottle raising kittens if you are forced to is both time intensive AND expensive. Most responsible, established breeders won't give you the time of day much less a stud service, so you may be forced to keep your own male. Keeping a male in your home requires special consideration in the form of a suitable stud environment, which can be very expensive to buy or build and you must be extra vigilant in keeping that environment squeaky-clean. You must also possess the type of personality to do what it takes to care for a stud ... you have to be very understanding of their nature and not become upset when they act like a stud and it helps to have patience, some more patience and even then, a little more patience. Raising the kittens until they are 12 to 16 weeks old (feeding a premium diet at least three to four times per day, vet bills for all three rounds of vaccines, early spay/neuter if you are lucky enough to find a vet that will do it and any other health issues that can and do come up) is also very, very costly money-wise, not to mention the time involved in properly socializing them so they will be loving companions to the people who want to share their homes with them.
There is no "probably" to it. If you believe you are going to make money from breeding, then you shouldn't breed. Period.
Contrary to popular belief, breeding is ~not~ about selling kittens. While it is true that kittens are a by-product of breeding, you should not be breeding solely to produce them. You are breeding to bring betterment to the breed. If you are breeding for ANY other reason, then you are not breeding for the RIGHT reason.
Even better, start out with a rescued pregnant queen to see if you have what it takes to even BE a breeder. Associate yourself with a local rescue and become a foster - care for a pregnant queen through delivery, raise the kittens and help the rescue find suitable adoptive homes. If you come through the experience wanting to continue, THEN start out with one female as mentioned above.
With Modern Siamese (as you have commented you would like to breed), showing is almost a necessity. And if you are registered with CFA, consider showing a requirement. In CFA, if you do not show, then you are in direct violation of your breeder's code of ethics and are considered a "back-yard breeder", one who breeds simply to produce kittens. So, while many may not choose to show, the sad fact is that with Modern Siamese, if you don't show, you run the risk of ruining your reputation as a responsible breeder.
Campaigning a cat can take a long time, a huge investment and a lot of serious committment. Not only will you have to take into consideration the expenses of keeping and raising the cats at home, you will have registration/show fees, transportation to and from shows - sometimes long distances away from where you live - hotel costs and let us not forget, show cages, travel crates, and all the other stuff you have to acquire and keep for showing.
These are just a few of the things to consider when thinking about becoming a breeder. There are more ... many more ... things, but this should give you a good place to start.
Depending on which registry association you choose to support, Lynx and Torties may NOT be registered as Siamese. They are Color Points in CFA.
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- #15
Yes... just before I went to bed I read a little on the CFA breed requirements. Whatever their colors cats are still cats and adorable no matter what!
I'm so glad that I'm getting responses to my inquiry! Not that I thought no one would respond but because I like to know about all avenues before I even start the engine. I'm definitely going to take it slow. I love cats and have wanted to be involved with a community scene/group for a long time. Don't really know what's taken me so long to get here but I'm here now. Originally I fostered the idea of breeding alley cats. Reading about the cat community now that sounds rediculous. Too bad; the colors and markings coming from alley cats are fascinating! I was hoping to produce an elite form of alley cat. I don't think anyone from the serious cat community would be interested in a project like that though... not from what I've been reading anyway.
Oh! A quick question: do they still sell and breed traditional Persians (the ones around in the 1900s) or are those with the flat faced the only ones around? I've noticed that they have 'Applehead' Siamese so I was just curious about Persians.
I'm so glad that I'm getting responses to my inquiry! Not that I thought no one would respond but because I like to know about all avenues before I even start the engine. I'm definitely going to take it slow. I love cats and have wanted to be involved with a community scene/group for a long time. Don't really know what's taken me so long to get here but I'm here now. Originally I fostered the idea of breeding alley cats. Reading about the cat community now that sounds rediculous. Too bad; the colors and markings coming from alley cats are fascinating! I was hoping to produce an elite form of alley cat. I don't think anyone from the serious cat community would be interested in a project like that though... not from what I've been reading anyway.
Oh! A quick question: do they still sell and breed traditional Persians (the ones around in the 1900s) or are those with the flat faced the only ones around? I've noticed that they have 'Applehead' Siamese so I was just curious about Persians.
They do still have Doll Faced Persians, and in my opinion they're a lot more beautiful than the flat faced Persians. (No offense meant toward those who breed Flat faced Persians.)
Sadly, they don't accept them for show. It's kind of sad, because the Doll faced Persian is so beautiful, and I think probably a bit healthier than the newer style Persian. I wish they would accept both version's of Persains because it would be a pity if they fazed out Persians with a normal cat face in favour of Peke faced only.
Sadly, they don't accept them for show. It's kind of sad, because the Doll faced Persian is so beautiful, and I think probably a bit healthier than the newer style Persian. I wish they would accept both version's of Persains because it would be a pity if they fazed out Persians with a normal cat face in favour of Peke faced only.
Wow I didn't know that. Sure isn't that way in the bengal world. Then again the CFA isn't a factor. I go to every show that comes around and they really are a lot of fun.
I guess price also is a lot different between breeds. With bengals a breeding female is $1500+. I didn't know the variance was so great between breeds.
Yes the little guy in my sig..Ares is a doll faced persian
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- #19
Hey going against the grain is interesting and exciting! You don't have nearly as many fascinating adventures going with the flow! =0) I like being different. Thanks for the info about the Doll Faced Persians by the way!
Do you know if anyone has cross bred wedge faced siamese and russian blues? If so what was the result. The possibilities of that cross have kept my mind busy for hours!
Do you know if anyone has cross bred wedge faced siamese and russian blues? If so what was the result. The possibilities of that cross have kept my mind busy for hours!
I bred Russian Blues. A long time ago, when the first russian blues were brought to England, they did use blue point siamese. Some of the lines have "throw backs" - they are called "white russians" and are basically a blue point russian. I know a breeder who had one pop up in her litter. She, of course, petted it out and had it spayed/neutered.
That is why some of the russian blue lines have a more slendar type look. Its NOT advisable to breed the two together. Russian blues should never be bred to other breeds.
One other thing to keep in mind when you are ready to breed. Have a list of potential buyers BEFORE you even breed the female. I always had my waiting list so that the kittens were sold before they were here. You have to keep them till they are a minimum of 12 weeks - Siamese are not really ready to leave till 14-16 weeks anyway.
IMO you want to have a very good quality cat - and the only way to know that is by showing - unless you've been breeding for years and can evaluate a kitten/cat to know the difference. Champion is minimum (and easy to get) - the better the cat, the better the pedigree. You should see several Grand Champions in the first 4 generations if you have a good cat - a pedigree with just Champions really doesn't mean very much with Siamese.
Like I said before, you will have a hard time finding a good quality cat unless you've been showing and you have contacts with other breeders. They will not sell to just anyone and they will want to know your intentions too. BTW you should ONLY be breeding to IMPROVE the breed - not for making money.
Personally, I'd be a little cautious with you and your intentions at this point in time. You want to rush into this. I don't want to sound mean, just a word to the wise - this is how a lot of top breeders feel.
Show in the pedigree class with a Siamese alter - and really listen and get to know if you want the hassles of breeding. It can be rewarding, but it takes a lot of time, work, and money. You will be putting out more money then taking in!
That is why some of the russian blue lines have a more slendar type look. Its NOT advisable to breed the two together. Russian blues should never be bred to other breeds.
One other thing to keep in mind when you are ready to breed. Have a list of potential buyers BEFORE you even breed the female. I always had my waiting list so that the kittens were sold before they were here. You have to keep them till they are a minimum of 12 weeks - Siamese are not really ready to leave till 14-16 weeks anyway.
IMO you want to have a very good quality cat - and the only way to know that is by showing - unless you've been breeding for years and can evaluate a kitten/cat to know the difference. Champion is minimum (and easy to get) - the better the cat, the better the pedigree. You should see several Grand Champions in the first 4 generations if you have a good cat - a pedigree with just Champions really doesn't mean very much with Siamese.
Like I said before, you will have a hard time finding a good quality cat unless you've been showing and you have contacts with other breeders. They will not sell to just anyone and they will want to know your intentions too. BTW you should ONLY be breeding to IMPROVE the breed - not for making money.
Personally, I'd be a little cautious with you and your intentions at this point in time. You want to rush into this. I don't want to sound mean, just a word to the wise - this is how a lot of top breeders feel.
Show in the pedigree class with a Siamese alter - and really listen and get to know if you want the hassles of breeding. It can be rewarding, but it takes a lot of time, work, and money. You will be putting out more money then taking in!
