Who are we kidding - rescues listing DSH's under breeds

eatrawfish · Oct 22, 2005

I see both Gaye and Katie's points. Ultimately although I understand your point Gaye I think it is OK to list them as mixes as long as there is an understanding that there is nothing pedigree about them.

In this case I was not only 100% certain there was no bengal in them, they didn't act remotely like bengals. I think it would have been outright dishonest to list them as bengals, no matter how many hits that got me. I don't like dishonesty from rescues, breeders, or anyone.

But if I got a little pointed kitten I might still list it as a siamese-mix, so that someone who wanted to rescue a siamese looking cat could easily find it. It is my experience that people are attracted to cats based on their looks, and otherwise how are they to find them?

But I would never decieve them into thinking there were pedigreed parents, or even any knowledge of the parents. If they want that they should find a responsible breeder.

tnr1 · Oct 22, 2005

I respectfully disagree that "most people who adopt understand that a MIX is different from a purebred". Just take a look here in the Breeder's Forum to see all of the "What Breed Is My Cat" posts.

I think that goes WELL beyond what rescue does and somewhat what rescue struggles with. Very few of us are geneticists...and as much as we would like to say that "looks shouldn't matter"...it does. That is one reason why anything that "looks" siamese, maine coon, persian will be adopted quicker than your basic DSH or DLH. I agree that shouldn't be the case (and hopefully someday moggies will be on equal footing) but we live in a society where currently value is placed higher on a purebred look...whether they have an ounce of the breed in them (it seems) doesn't matter as much to the adoptor.

Of course people want validation of what they believe is a mix with purebred heritage. l probably would have posted Habenaro to find out what she was (she's been called a patch tabby, a torbico, a tabbico)...and she doesn't have an ounce of purebred in her.

Katie

eatrawfish · Oct 22, 2005

I swear I'm not trying to double team, just my two cents.

Most people who come here and want to know the breed of their cat post a picture or describe their looks, I've yet to see anyone say "my cat is really intelligent, so I think it's a siamese." I think most people want looks.

I'd hazard a guess that if they returned their little pointed kitten, it is because of the kittens behavioral issues in itself, not because it didn't live up to a breed standard they thought it should.

And I think a lot of it is because of a lack of understanding on breeds that the general public has (including those in rescue), who gets to educate them? Maybe we should teach courses...

krazy kat2 · Oct 22, 2005

When I rescued Pepper out of a busy intersection, I took her to the vet to make sure her injuries were not life threatening, and he told me he thought she was a bengal mix. I told him that was nice, but I would still keep her and love her if she was the dsh I thought she was. I thought at the time he might be trying to make her seem a little more attractive to insure she would have a home. I have since been told the same thing by another vet and a groomer, but it still does not matter. I love her just the same if she was a pedigreed bengal, or a sweet little moggie. She does have a few of the traits associated with bengals, but not enough to make me really think that she is a mix. I think she is just a pretty little girl with a nice coat and lovely paws. She looks a lot different than the pic in my siggy, she had not reached her full growth.
I think some people that try to make cats more attratcive by associating them with a breed may be just trying to get them a home, but it is still dishonest, and should not be done. Moggies are wonderful, and do not need to be passed off as anything but the dear little creatures they are.

cyberkitten · Oct 22, 2005

I think it would be dishonest to list these cats as anything but what they are. What's wrong with being a tabby??? People pay big bucks to get bengals and a breeder friend I know spends an exhoritant amt of money showing her cats to breed the champions. (She does now show them just to breed them - that came out wrong, lol but it is essential!) And a rescue that would advertise bengals would decieve people about a living being!!! I think that's disgraceful and I would tell them that.

I agree it gives rescues a bad name. There already is a Bengal Rescue network.

hopehacker · Oct 23, 2005

I'll have to admit that when I see Rescue's claiming a cat is a Bengal Mix, or Russian Blue mix, when they clearly aren't makes me lose respect for the Rescue. It is dishonest, plain and simple. I'm sure if someone turned in a purebred Bengal to the Rescue, they would tell them it's a Bengal. I can tell the difference between a Bengal and a regular Tabby cat. Without looking at the coat or the markings, Bengal's have a distinctive face. They look a lot like my Simba in the face, no matter what types of markings they have, be it spotted or marbled. I think the kittens eatrawfish have up for adoption are adorable, but they don't even remotely look like Bengal's. Pepper sort of does look like there could possibly be Bengal in her, but without proof there's no way to be sure.

Anyway, the dishonesty of listing cats as a breed or a breed mix, makes me not trust the rescue's that list them that way. It seems to me, that they are trying to use a Breed as a selling point in finding the cat a home, and they don't care if they're honest. I say, unless you are SURE a cat is a specific breed, you should not list it as that breed or a mix of that breed.

momofmany · Oct 23, 2005

I have to side with Katie on this one. I volunteer for a Humane Society that lists their pets on petfinder.com. Those that are listed as a mixed breed get inquiries far greater than any other cat, particularly Siamese, Himilayans, Russian Blues, Maine Coons, Burmese, etc. It draws people into the shelter when they would not otherwise come in to adopt from rescue and some lucky cat now has a home. We don't lie to folks - we tell them we found them on the street and that they appear to have a breed in them. They make the choice after they meet them.

Our adoptions were way down this year until they started using the breed tactic in Petfinder and they picked up dramatically since that time. It's a simple tactic of advertising - sell the strong points.

hopehacker · Oct 23, 2005

But, these people who come in to adopt a cat, think that you are experts, so if you tell them, they appear to be a mix of a particular breed, they adoptee thinks that is what they are getting. To get a grey cat off the streets and tell them they are a Russian Blue Mix, is what I would call embellishing the truth a bit. I can understand that adoptions are picking up, because people are thinking they're getting a cat of a specific breed or patially that breed for a fraction of the price they would be paying to get an actual Russian Blue. It just doesn't seem honest to me. I know you want to find homes for these kitties, and I understand that you need to come up with good selling points to find these kittles. I just think it's more honest to come up with something about the kitty it's self that would appeal to people.

For a rescue person to tell eatrawfish to say her adorable little tabby's are Bengal Mix's is SO wrong. They don't even look anything like Bengal's, but someone might come in there thinking they may be adopting a Bengal, especially if they haven't seen a Bengal before.

tnr1 · Oct 23, 2005

But, these people who come in to adopt a cat, think that you are experts, so if you tell them, they appear to be a mix of a particular breed, they adoptee thinks that is what they are getting. To get a grey cat off the streets and tell them they are a Russian Blue Mix, is what I would call embellishing the truth a bit. I can understand that adoptions are picking up, because people are thinking they're getting a cat of a specific breed or patially that breed for a fraction of the price they would be paying to get an actual Russian Blue.

All MomofMany is saying is that tends to draw more people to the shelter. She doesn't say that they are adopting the cats that are listed as mixes or are adopting a different cat. The point is that people are looking at the shelter as a place to adopt which is not a bad thing at all. Believe me, we have several people who say.."that cat looks a lot like my (name of cat) who was a maine coon"....I have often explained that because the cats we receive we do not know the heritage of we cannot say whether there is an ounce of the breed they are looking for in the cat...but for the most part, our adoptors do not care. They are happy to be 1. adopting and 2. finding a cat that reminds them of a cat they have had fond memories of....what is the harm in that???

Katie

gayef · Oct 23, 2005

It just reminds me of the tactics that used car salesman have employed.

I can certainly understand bringing more interest to the shelter and raising the number of adoptions, but can't you find a way to be honest while doing that? Perhaps if we put our heads together, we could come up with a way, but this is just wrong.

eatrawfish · Oct 23, 2005

I still think it is partially a lack of understanding on breeds for a majority of those out there.

I hate to use anecdotal experience as some sort of proof, but really before I started posting on TCS I thought that a cat that LOOKED Siamese WAS a siamese. It wasn't until I read around here that I learned that without papers it is not and will never be. I didn't know this and I've loved kitties since I was a little girl (but never owned a pedigreed cats of course).

I wonder if other ppl were in ignorance like this, I can only imagine.

semiferal · Oct 23, 2005

I think the bigger issue here is cats vs. dogs.

I know this sounds crazy so let me explain.

With dogs, it is a given that the dog is either described as a breed or a breed mix or a breed/breed mix. If the dog's heritage is unknown, an educated guess is made based on physical and behavioral characteristics.

There is *nothing* wrong with this IMO. Even if the dog's heritage is unknown, one certainly knows that a Basset Hound mix will be different from a Lab mix or a Pekingese mix or whatever. Listing an animal as a breed mix does give information about the animal's characteristics.

I think this is also a reflection of too little knowledge, in general society, about how cats are different from dogs. We see this in every area of life - from "leash laws" that cities pass for cats, to vets who recommend a diet of dry food only for cats, to pet guardians who assume that since the mixed breed dog they adopted from a shelter is a Beagle mix, then their DSH cat must also be some sort of breed mix.

What they don't fully know is that the differences in genetics and temperament between "extremes" of purebred cats (say, for the sake of argument, Persian and Sphynx) are way, way less than the differences between, say, a Mastiff and a Chihuahua.

I certainly would agree that it is necessary to educate people about the fact that identifying a cat by breed is very unimportant compared with identifying dogs by breed. However, in terms of priorities, it's just not there for me. I feel like we have enough on our plates educating people about the importance of spay/neuter before sexual maturity, why declawing is bad, that cats are a commitment of time and energy and money and love for their entire natural lives, why Hartz flea treatment is nasty stuff that doesn't belong near a cat, etc. If someone knows these things and still wants to adopt a cat that is identified as a mix of a breed whose name s/he recognizes - well, in that case I think I have just found a new home for my Lynx point/snowshoe/Siamese lookalike DSH foster, thank you very much!

I understand why a breeder would be reluctant to have the name of a breed associated with a random-bred cat, because it makes it seem as though this cat is the descendant of a purebred pet-quality cat who was unsterilized, allowed to roam, and possibly even abandoned. So it makes it seem as though the breeder was irresponsible in placing the cat in this home, and therefore it is a negative reflection on all breeders.

But it is hypocritical for a breeder to call on a rescue to be "honest" in marketing cats of unknown heritage who happen to bear a strong resemblance to that particular breed. Breeders too must be honest. They must acknowledge that there are irresponsible breeders who are placing cats in homes where they are not cared for properly. They must acknowledge that there is absolutely no reason to believe that a breed lookalike who ends up in rescue was not registered with the CFA at birth, or is not a direct descendent of a registered cat.

I also think it is not accurate to assume that people will return a cat upon finding out that their "breed mix" is actually not. For one thing, it is something that is pretty difficult to prove or disprove without very expensive genetic testing. But more importantly, such an assumption completely discounts the importance of the human-animal bond. People bond with and love their cats, not with whatever breed the cat is supposed to be.

gayef · Oct 23, 2005

Originally Posted by semiferal

I understand why a breeder would be reluctant to have the name of a breed associated with a random-bred cat, because it makes it seem as though this cat is the descendant of a purebred pet-quality cat who was unsterilized, allowed to roam, and possibly even abandoned. So it makes it seem as though the breeder was irresponsible in placing the cat in this home, and therefore it is a negative reflection on all breeders.

While this is indeed a valid point, it isn't what bothers me the most. What bothers me is that "rescue" in general wants either 1) for all breeders to stop breeding completely or 2) for breeders to raise the bar and adhere to a higher standard of practice and disclosure - yet rescue seems reluctant to set that same standard for themselves. If you are going to ask someone to do something of importance and value because it is the right thing to do, then be willing to do that same thing yourself.

As for all breeders being lumped into the same smelly pile, I personally think that the animal rights zealots have had a whole lot to do with that ... and that is all I will say on that topic.

scamperfarms · Oct 23, 2005

Originally Posted by semiferal

But it is hypocritical for a breeder to call on a rescue to be "honest" in marketing cats of unknown heritage who happen to bear a strong resemblance to that particular breed. Breeders too must be honest. They must acknowledge that there are irresponsible breeders who are placing cats in homes where they are not cared for properly. They must acknowledge that there is absolutely no reason to believe that a breed lookalike who ends up in rescue was not registered with the CFA at birth, or is not a direct descendent of a registered cat.

.

Very true. My Lokis mom was a CFA registered Persian, his mom "got out" the breeder had poor practices in my book but..hes my doll anyways

wellingtoncats · Oct 23, 2005

Originally Posted by HopeHacker

I'll have to admit that when I see Rescue's claiming a cat is a Bengal Mix, or Russian Blue mix, when they clearly aren't makes me lose respect for the Rescue. It is dishonest, plain and simple. I'm sure if someone turned in a purebred Bengal to the Rescue, they would tell them it's a Bengal. I can tell the difference between a Bengal and a regular Tabby cat. Without looking at the coat or the markings, Bengal's have a distinctive face. They look a lot like my Simba in the face, no matter what types of markings they have, be it spotted or marbled. I think the kittens eatrawfish have up for adoption are adorable, but they don't even remotely look like Bengal's. Pepper sort of does look like there could possibly be Bengal in her, but without proof there's no way to be sure.

Anyway, the dishonesty of listing cats as a breed or a breed mix, makes me not trust the rescue's that list them that way. It seems to me, that they are trying to use a Breed as a selling point in finding the cat a home, and they don't care if they're honest. I say, unless you are SURE a cat is a specific breed, you should not list it as that breed or a mix of that breed.

Hope, you took the words right out of my mouth.

I agree with you on everything!

tnr1 · Oct 24, 2005

What bothers me is that "rescue" in general wants either 1) for all breeders to stop breeding completely or 2) for breeders to raise the bar and adhere to a higher standard of practice and disclosure - yet rescue seems reluctant to set that same standard for themselves. If you are going to ask someone to do something of importance and value because it is the right thing to do, then be willing to do that same thing yourself.

And I think we have discussed that agnosium Gaye. I have to agree with semiferal:

I certainly would agree that it is necessary to educate people about the fact that identifying a cat by breed is very unimportant compared with identifying dogs by breed. However, in terms of priorities, it's just not there for me. I feel like we have enough on our plates educating people about the importance of spay/neuter before sexual maturity, why declawing is bad, that cats are a commitment of time and energy and money and love for their entire natural lives, why Hartz flea treatment is nasty stuff that doesn't belong near a cat, etc. If someone knows these things and still wants to adopt a cat that is identified as a mix of a breed whose name s/he recognizes - well, in that case I think I have just found a new home for my Lynx point/snowshoe/Siamese lookalike DSH foster, thank you very much!

It just isn't a priority for me to go into the details of a cat that looks siamese but isn't and right now Petfinder isn't set up for "DSH with siamese traits". That may be due to how dogs are listed...but again, I'm sure you will find dog breeders have the same gripe. I do believe that for the most part rescue isn't trying to be snarky with their posting...even I thought a siamese mix (or anything that looked siamese) had siamese heritage. Only by being on this board did I learn that that is far from the truth. Imagine how many rescuers do not know what I now know. Again...we aren't geneticists...and for the most part, I think rescue has enough on their hands to try to bring down the overpopulation and keep cats OUT of the shelter environment. Accurate breed listings are probably low on the list....I haven't had a single case of a cat brought back because it wasn't the breed listed. We have however, had countless people come to us with cats that have peeing issues (these aren't even our cats...they just assume we are part vet, part behaviorist, part rescuer), biting issues etc.

The post that started this discussion was a clear situation of a rescue group who was trying to take advantage of the breed listings....but again, I'm not going to say they are a bad rescue...just a bit misguided when it comes to Bengals.

At some point it would be a good idea for rescues and breeders to come together to find ways to be more accurate in listings....but with 4.4 million animals losing their lives....I don't think today is the day. We (rescue) struggle forth and try to do the best we can...sometimes we falter a bit...but our goal is a lofty one (no more homeless pets) and we deserve a little bit of a break.

Katie

laureen227 · Oct 24, 2005

Originally Posted by HopeHacker

To get a grey cat off the streets and tell them they are a Russian Blue Mix, is what I would call embellishing the truth a bit. I can understand that adoptions are picking up, because people are thinking they're getting a cat of a specific breed or patially that breed for a fraction of the price they would be paying to get an actual Russian Blue.

i used to tell people that my Mouse was not a Russian blue, because she wasn't [saw her mother!] but she did have a thick, plush, double coat like a Russian Blue's. her eyes were wrong, tho - not that beautiful emerald, but a beautiful golden-green shade. i didn't care - she was beautiful! i chose her for appearance, because i think blue cats are lovely - but i loved her for her personality. if i had had to describe her for adoption, i would've called her a DSH with a double coat.

eatrawfish · Oct 24, 2005

Originally Posted by TNR1

The post that started this discussion was a clear situation of a rescue group who was trying to take advantage of the breed listings....but again, I'm not going to say they are a bad rescue...just a bit misguided when it comes to Bengals.

In defense of the crazy lady who drives me nuts who trapped the kittens and is helping me foster, I have since come to the opinion that she is actually just very ignorant. At first I thought she was trying to capatalize on bengals popularity, but since then she has said a few things to make me believe she is just clueless about these things. I think she honestly believes she has a bengal colony because they look like bengals. And who is going to educate her on the difference?

lionessrampant · Oct 24, 2005

I could be wrong, so I want someone who knows for sure to clarify this for me...

Aren't there almost no naturally occuring actual 'breeds' of cat? Weren't most of them sort of developed from DSH or wildcats ( or some combination thereof)? Thus making DSH sort of the 'industry standard' as it were?

commonoddity042 · Oct 24, 2005

i'm all for honesty. i've seen a shelter that charges $200 for "purebred" cats, and $100 for moggies....and lists almost EVERYONE as a purebred, and honestly, quite a few of them look nothing like the breed they're listed as. i'm all for saying it may be a mix, but i'd much rather they just come out and say "i didnt see this cat's conception and birth, and no one gave me papers when it was surrendered, and anything i thought it was would be a speculation, so i'll just stick to what i know and say it's a moggy".

This is not the only shelter i've seen label a bunch of moggies as pedigrees because they charge higher for peds either. Maybe if they were the same price as the cats in the shelter that didnt look like a popular breed, and labeled as a mix, i'd be more for it, but i've seen too many price-gougings that arent based on definite parentage at all...

Who are we kidding - rescues listing DSH's under breeds

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