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Racisim....white supremacy...13-year-old girls??? - Page 2

post #31 of 59

Those poor girls.
They have been fed nothing but hate and venom and vileness their whole lives.... Guess they didn't really have a chance.
Their mother should be ashamed for what she's done, but she's probably too ignorant and blind by her own hate.
post #32 of 59
I believe that censorship can be defended. Although the word "censorship" is negative loaded term, I will use it.

1) Sticks and Stones...
While hate speech would not physically hurt the person, it can result in psychological injury. To be told daily that they are inferior would have a negative impact on the person. We have seen how people who have gone through robberies or rape recovering from their physical injuries but yet still are hurt psychologically. Just because we are not able to see the injury in a physical manifestation does not it is not there.

2) Violence Inspired
These hate speech promotes violence either directly through the express call for violence or indirectly through promoting hate resulting in the belief that the other group of people are less than human thus violence directed at them is acceptable. Radio Rwanda in the 1990s promoted the use of violence and as a result helped in the Genocide. Are we suppose to wait until the manifestation of violence and death before action is taken?

Are we to say that the makers of Al Qaeda's videos that promote the use of violence is constitutionally protected? We have seen the US turn away speakers on the belief that such speaker promotes violence. Is such speech censored on the grounds that they threaten the majority of people while other hate speech which are directed at minority protected because they do not threaten everyone.

3) Driving them Underground
I never really understood the argument that laws on hate speech would drive the makers of them underground. Should we say that laws against murder, robbery or rape only drive these criminals underground? One argument is that in a free for all situation, there is the opportunity for other persons to correct the mindset of some of the people who believe in hate speech. But that takes time and in the meantime, people are suffering. And given that there are people who will be bigots and their minds cannot be changed, it seems that the targeted group will continue to suffer for a very long time.
post #33 of 59
I saw these girls on a Louis Theroux program a few years younger. Horrible. But: DH has done some research on anti-semitism, so I know a bit of these matters. These ridicilous extremist people are not the really dangerous ones, it's the normal everyday racist in most of us we should be worried about.
post #34 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat
I toured the concentration camps on a school trip in my freshman year of high school. Three schools participated in the trip, and since Philadelphia is a city with a fairly high Jewish population, some of the kids who participated had lost grandparents, etc., in the Nazi atrocity. It was positively sickening, but I'm not dumb enough to think it can't happen again.
Exactly.
post #35 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryn
I saw these girls on a Louis Theroux program a few years younger. Horrible. But: DH has done some research on anti-semitism, so I know a bit of these matters. These ridicilous extremist people are not the really dangerous ones, it's the normal everyday racist in most of us we should be worried about.
Absolutely. I live in Toronto, a very multicultural city, probably one the most diverse culturally in the world, and I've experienced racist comments as a blonde, blue-eyed white woman. People often forget that racism is racism, no matter what one's race.
post #36 of 59
I think most homeschoolers teach a more accurate picture of history! Homeschooling is supposed to be teaching truths, not brainwashing! But we all have different beliefs, and will all pass them on to our kids in some way.

The best teaching gives kids a moral compass, but also tools to discern truth. My child learned about WWII at a public school, by having the kids build a WWII museum. One kid made a gas chamber, where you would have a number printed on your forearm, then walk into a dark chamber. (I couldn't go in, too creepy!)

As a Christian, I teach my kids my beliefs, but also that other people think differently. If that mother would only give the kids enough freedom to consider what really happened in Germany, and let them interview some people who lived through it, her kids would learn the truth. But that is only "safe" to do, if you are teaching truth. If you teach lies, you have to keep a close lid on it.

As for them going to Germany-I'm sure she would find a way to only let them see what she wants. It is very sad that so many people refuse to think for themselves. So sad that horrible monsters like Hitler or Charles Manson are looked up to as heros.
post #37 of 59
I heard about that. You can certianlly blame the parents for this one.
post #38 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by ugaimes
I'm glad everyone's outraged over this, but how come it's so easy for people to be outraged over racists and not have that exact same outrage over people who are homophobic? Either way, you're judging someone about something that they cannot help (race, sexual preference).
Not too sure if I like the double standard.
You have a great point! I didn't think of that.
post #39 of 59
I wonder if these girls will realize how awful this is, when they grow up and are finally exposed to good people (of other races and nationalities)? I hope they will be very ashamed of it and renounce these terrible "beliefs"!! I will be praying for these girls. They have been horribly brainwashed by their parents.
post #40 of 59
Completely and utterly brainwashed - Unfortunately, what your parents teach you when you are young tends to stick around, no matter how much education you receive.

Why can't we just behave as Human Beings? Not white, black, yellow, handicapped or other - If we got invaded by aliens tomorrow do you think they would care about the colour of our skin or the sexual preference we have? Not a chance.

If the media didn't give them the time of day, then things like this would just die away.
post #41 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beckiboo
I think most homeschoolers teach a more accurate picture of history! Homeschooling is supposed to be teaching truths, not brainwashing! But we all have different beliefs, and will all pass them on to our kids in some way.

The best teaching gives kids a moral compass, but also tools to discern truth. My child learned about WWII at a public school, by having the kids build a WWII museum. One kid made a gas chamber, where you would have a number printed on your forearm, then walk into a dark chamber. (I couldn't go in, too creepy!)

As a Christian, I teach my kids my beliefs, but also that other people think differently. If that mother would only give the kids enough freedom to consider what really happened in Germany, and let them interview some people who lived through it, her kids would learn the truth. But that is only "safe" to do, if you are teaching truth. If you teach lies, you have to keep a close lid on it.

As for them going to Germany-I'm sure she would find a way to only let them see what she wants. It is very sad that so many people refuse to think for themselves. So sad that horrible monsters like Hitler or Charles Manson are looked up to as heros.
It is important to make people remember Auschwitch: The memory is fading at alarming speed, for instance in the 90's Swedish people were shocked to find out that about 1/3 (not 100% sure of the figures, too big anyway) of Swedish teenagers didn't believe that Holocaust really happened. That is horrible.

However, IMO it's way too convinient and dangerous to marginalize Antisemitism to the Third Reich. In reality Hitler didn't just drop from the sky one day, he had centuries of Western mainstream hate tradition behind him. Great litterature classics like Cantenbury Tales or The Merchant of Venice are infested with racism. Martin Luthers international bestseller, still widely popular 70 years ago, was called "On the Jews and Their Lies", a hate book. Henry Ford published plenty of Antisemite material and funded Hitler. He was one of the powerful antisemites who lobbied US government into refusing to take in Holocaust refugees at first, not very hard, because no one really wanted more Jews in the country anyway. IBM created the database system for concentration camps. The Vatican did nothing to prevent Holocaust and later had to apologize. The list goes on. Antisemitism and racism cannot be simplified to the Nazis, they are just another part of a larger Western tradition.

On the other hand, Holocaust shouldn't be viewed as killing just Jews: Homosexuals, disabled people and the Romany also "own" the memory of Auschwitch.

BTW, antisemitism didn't originally mean just hating Jewish people, the concept included also Arabs. Reading quite a lot of academic work on racism, I have been sad, but not suprised to realize that 30's discourse on Jews and lot of modern discourse on Moslems could be mixed up easily, no one being capable to find out which is which.

OK, done ranting.
post #42 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryn
IBM created the database system for concentration camps.

Really interesting stuff....some of it I knew, some of it I didnt, but i was confused by the above quoted statement...

As far as I know IBM was founded in the early to mid 1970's by a group of scientists that left the Bell labratories after creating the first computer...so I am wondering how IBM could have created any data bases for the concentration camps.....

Unless you are refering to german scientists who later went on to work for Bell, but even then there were no computers, and all the Nazi's kept their records on paper...I have seen them......

Just wanted to clear that up and make sure I wasnt misunderstanding you
post #43 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebula11
Really interesting stuff....some of it I knew, some of it I didnt, but i was confused by the above quoted statement...

As far as I know IBM was founded in the early to mid 1970's by a group of scientists that left the Bell labratories after creating the first computer...so I am wondering how IBM could have created any data bases for the concentration camps.....

Unless you are refering to german scientists who later went on to work for Bell, but even then there were no computers, and all the Nazi's kept their records on paper...I have seen them......

Just wanted to clear that up and make sure I wasnt misunderstanding you
IBM is older than computers. The database system I'm talking about is a mechanical punch card system delivered by a subsidiary that wasn't taken over by the Nazis until 1941. What the corporations leaders really knew about the camps is open to debate, some scholars think they knew and didn't care, others say they just provided the system.

Here's is a pretty good sum up with links concerning the debate on the extent of the companys responsibility:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM#World_War_II
post #44 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryn
IBM is older than computers. The database system I'm talking about is a mechanical punch card system delivered by a subsidiary that wasn't taken over by the Nazis until 1941. What the corporations leaders really knew about the camps is open to debate, some scholars think they knew and didn't care, others say they just provided the system.

Here's is a pretty good sum up with links concerning the debate on the extent of the companys responsibility:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM#World_War_II


Geeze...well paint me surprised.....huh......thanks for the info..I had no clue about this...This is the first time......thats really interesting
post #45 of 59
There are laws here in Canada too aganst teaching hatred. The thing is if they were home schooled, I wonder how that would have worked. An inspector would have had to find their mother teaching them that horrible material tho it appears to be too late now. Perhaps they will end up convicted under some other anti-hate law? It is appalling that anyone would even buy their stuff!! But there are sadly many ill informed people in this world. It's always sad to see young people brought up to hate when there is so much to gain by being open and understanding of the many wonderful cultures and religions in our midst.

I do not believe religion should be taught in any school and it bothers me that this newly named version of creationism has gained some "credence" (said with tongue planted firmly in cheek) among some schools in the US - very scary stuff!!! Not as scary as racism but it all leads to the same place, - assuming the beliefs of one's religion are the only explanation for life when that is in fact not at all true.

I attended an excellent Catholic school but now that same private school embraces the work of many religions, not just one!! It has progressed which is good to see. We could only hope that public schools should be so honest - esp given that taxpayers of all backgrounds fund them. Religion no longer holds the prominance it once had in society and religious beliefs belong to one's family and Church/Synogogue/Mosque, etc and not in the realm of education - except of course in one's religion's education program.
post #46 of 59
One other thing: Highly emotional historical questions are a dangerous ground, it's really hard to find out whose right when blood runs high. I'm not an expert on this particular matter: It may be that IBM knew everything, knew nothing or even that the scholar writing the book has made a mistake, as the curator of The Auscwitz Museum thinks. I'm inclined to think the curator is wrong, mainly because I haven't heard IBM denying the technical part, just the knowledge of it. I might be wrong.

It's a confusing perioid, an Auswitch Museum worker also said to one of my professors that the traditionally quoted 6 million victims is wrong, 3,5 million is the correct body count. Still, 6 million is the official number even today, so I cant' say which is right. Historical facts are most often fuzzy.

Anyway, IBM isn't the question here, I think they were in no way worse than most everybody else. Just stuck in technicalities.
post #47 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryn
However, IMO it's way too convinient and dangerous to marginalize Antisemitism to the Third Reich. In reality Hitler didn't just drop from the sky one day, he had centuries of Western mainstream hate tradition behind him.
You're absolutely correct. I was the poster who brought up the concentration camps. Just to clarify: I studied German and German history, have lived in Germany for half my life, and have been married to a German for longer than that, hence the immediate connection with Germany in my mind.
Anti-Semitism certainly wasn't, and isn't, limited to Nazi Germany. I simply feel that the last few generations of Germans have been highly sensitive to/aware of anti-Semitism, and could teach anti-Semites in other countries a few lessons in where such asinine attitudes can lead.
post #48 of 59
I really have to think about this one. Being what I am, I find it really scary that CHILDREN are being taught these things, and exploited through their learning. But at the same time, I'm not altogether certain that reforming their education to include the truths that their mother negated for so long, will even help them. I hope that they do learn some rationality somewhere, or when these children grow up, they will be worthless human beings (in my opinion.)

Sad.
post #49 of 59
Religious Question: For people who believe in judgment day or the like, what if the world came to an end today. Would the 2 girls be sent to hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberKitten
There are laws here in Canada too aganst teaching hatred.
If you are interested there is one Canadian Supreme Court case (R v Keegstra) which I particularly liked, that dealt with the above situation. Basically it was a prosecution against a school teacher who taught taught anti-semitic stuff in the classrooms and expected the students to produce those stuff in exams and he was challenging the prosecution under the Charter. It had a very good analysis of the various theories on freedom of speech and restrictions.
If you are interested (http://www.canlii.org/ca/cas/scc/1990/1990scc128.html)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jane_vernon
Why can't we just behave as Human Beings? Not white, black, yellow, handicapped or other
Yellow? Does that person have Jaundice
post #50 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebula11
Wow...I think I finally found an IMO worthy topic.......

These two 13-year-old girls (who resemble the Olsen twins) have already decided that they are going to take the White supremacy road........

Calling thier singing duo "Prussian Blue" there songs are tributes to Nazi's, and the importance of keeping white the domanent race......

I am floored ....what do you guys think....

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1231684&page=1
They are doing it for attention AND IT IS WORKING!
post #51 of 59
Quote:
I'm glad everyone's outraged over this, but how come it's so easy for people to be outraged over racists and not have that exact same outrage over people who are homophobic? Either way, you're judging someone about something that they cannot help (race, sexual preference).
Not too sure if I like the double standard
Ahh, but not everyone believes that being a homosexual is something you are "born with". They are raised with another set of beliefs: That homosexuality is a learned behavior OR a spiritual condition. After all (some might reason), If homosexuality is genetic then there wouldn't be any more homosexuals because how could they pass that gene along if they can't have kids??

And to "judge" someone is to condemn them. To say that something is wrong, is not the same as judging the person, just the act.
post #52 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by catlover67
Ahh, but not everyone believes that being a homosexual is something you are "born with". They are raised with another set of beliefs: That homosexuality is a learned behavior OR a spiritual condition. After all (some might reason), If homosexuality is genetic then there wouldn't be any more homosexuals because how could they pass that gene along if they can't have kids??

And to "judge" someone is to condemn them. To say that something is wrong, is not the same as judging the person, just the act.
Ehh not true about the passing on bit. In very simple terms, a person may be a have a certain gene and pass it on but it may not be active. One example would be Tay-Sachs, a genetic disease, where most people who have it die by age 5 but yet if that is the case would not the disease be wiped out?

Personally, I am not too bothered with the genetic or whether they have a choice as there are people who are bisexual and have the choice to choose. I regard this more as a fundamental right to choose how to live one's life just like choosing one's religion or choosing whether to marry a person of another race.
post #53 of 59
Before we vere off into a discussion of homosexuality: nature vs nurture, or some such, may I just remind everyone that this thread is about racism and white supremacy? Thanks for keeping on topic.
post #54 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by rapunzel47
Before we vere off into a discussion of homosexuality: nature vs nurture, or some such, may I just remind everyone that this thread is about racism and white supremacy? Thanks for keeping on topic.
Heh, when I first glanced at this statement my instinctive reaction was the following:

"Before we vere off into a discussion off... "
This seem to suggest that you have accepted that we are going to vere off. Much like the sentence, before you drive to the store, remember to put on your seatbelt.

may I just remind everyone
Therefore the reminder is to inform people that there is also the original topic we can talk about in addition to the new topic which we are about to engage in.

Thanks for keeping on topic
And this merely thanks people for keeping on topic but does not tell people to keep on topic. Much like the sentence "thanks for the donation." It does not mean that everyone has to donate it merely thanks those who do donate or do the particular act.

Oh man my mind is a bit friend. I think I need coffee break except that I do not drink coffee
post #55 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpy
Heh, when I first glanced at this statement my instinctive reaction was the following:

"Before we vere off into a discussion off... "
This seem to suggest that you have accepted that we are going to vere off. Much like the sentence, before you drive to the store, remember to put on your seatbelt.

may I just remind everyone
Therefore the reminder is to inform people that there is also the original topic we can talk about in addition to the new topic which we are about to engage in.

Thanks for keeping on topic
And this merely thanks people for keeping on topic but does not tell people to keep on topic. Much like the sentence "thanks for the donation." It does not mean that everyone has to donate it merely thanks those who do donate or do the particular act.

Oh man my mind is a bit friend. I think I need coffee break except that I do not drink coffee
Would you prefer: "Hey, folks, stick to the topic under discussion, or I'll exercise power and delete any posts that are , because I don't want to hear complaints like ?"
And now I've veered off topic!
post #56 of 59
Those poor girls. I pray that one day they will develop minds of their own, and come to realize that people are people, no matter what their color. I certainly hope that no one gives those girls a record deal. No one needs to promote the hatred that these girls are being taught any further.
post #57 of 59
According to the current issue of Newsweek they have had to go into hiding, after all of the publicity. They were under the impression that they would be lionized and looked upon as teeny-bopper role models. Instead, they have been the targets of invective and their egos just couldn't take it.
post #58 of 59
I wonder how many albums they sold due to the recent publicity. Paying attention to groups like this is doing them a big favour even talking about them now can lead someone reading this page to go out and buy their album. Just a thought.
post #59 of 59
I think that the article said they have sold about 7000 copies. Considering the size of their target demographic, that's not much.
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