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Raw Diet....yes, no, maybe? - Page 3

post #61 of 74
Okay good news I got the bone meal... but how much??? please pm me or put it here I do 1lb of meat ....
post #62 of 74
I just recently started looking into beginning a raw food diet for my cats and dog. For those of you that do this what recipes do you use? Also, I just read that you shoud not use liver every day because of its Vitamin A content, which can be toxic to cats (especially if you're using liver along with a supplement). Is this true? And if so, how often should I put liver in? Also, can I use the same diet for both of my cats, and how often/much should I give each and my dog? TIA!
post #63 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Bengals
Again, I would like to point out that the pet food industry has only been in place for about 80 years.

What were all the domestic cats eating before that?
Homemade food and table scraps. Commercial pet food wasn't available behind the Iron Curtain. Various studies that have been done in Germany, which was reunified 15 years ago, indicate that dogs' life spans have increased by about 6 years, and cats' life spans have doubled, since commercial pet food became available in eastern Germany. Obviously, all the pet owners there aren't feeding holistic or top-of-the-line brands now, so those findings are interesting. Since canned or dry pet food wasn't available, I believe it's safe to assume that supplements weren't, either.
I tried feeding raw meat (organic beef fillet), as a means of cutting down on tartar, with no success. Jamie won't touch it (though he's extremely picky), and ZsaZsa, who is an indoor/outdoor cat that supplements her diet with rodents, etc., would only lick it. The latter killed and partially ate a hedgehog (!) last week, so I'm beginning to think she only likes raw meet with fur or feathers.
There are a lot of BARFers on a German board I participate in, and I've noticed an increasing trend towards feeding mice, rats, and chicks. Not live ones - there are companies that'll deliver them frozen to your door (overnight delivery in Styrofoam coolers packed with dry ice, I've been told). This was originally meant for snake owners, but apparently more and more cat owners are availing themselves of the service. I'm not sure what to think about that.
post #64 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat
There are a lot of BARFers on a German board I participate in, and I've noticed an increasing trend towards feeding mice, rats, and chicks. Not live ones - there are companies that'll deliver them frozen to your door (overnight delivery in Styrofoam coolers packed with dry ice, I've been told). This was originally meant for snake owners, but apparently more and more cat owners are availing themselves of the service. I'm not sure what to think about that.

i've wondered about that. with so many trying so hard to feed food that was as close as possible to a cat's natural diet, i was beginning to wonder if some were feeding cats an actual natural diet of pre-killed mice and birds that have been pretested for diseases.
post #65 of 74
The latter killed and partially ate a hedgehog (!) last week, so I'm beginning to think she only likes raw meet with fur or feathers.

Jcat I have one like that too Zoey ....
post #66 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeBrayandAmber
I just recently started looking into beginning a raw food diet for my cats and dog. For those of you that do this what recipes do you use? Also, I just read that you shoud not use liver every day because of its Vitamin A content, which can be toxic to cats (especially if you're using liver along with a supplement). Is this true? And if so, how often should I put liver in? Also, can I use the same diet for both of my cats, and how often/much should I give each and my dog? TIA!
Pat gave the grams of liver permitted per week ... I figured it to 6.6 ounzes per animal ... I have three so 1lb of liver is served per week... How a supplement would affect this would invole the dosage and amount per dosage..
post #67 of 74
Thread Starter 
Just a note to those that are attempting or have attempted Raw feedings:

It has been my experience with our adult bengals, that they don't care for raw beef in the least bit. Some of them will nibble at it, others turn away in disgust. Some will eat fully cooked premium steak cuts though! (Yeah, they aren't getting those too often, )
The kittens who are weaning will eat raw beef pretty readily, but not with the same gusto as rabbit or chicken.

It would appear that our cats like to eat what they might be able to hunt down in the wild. Do they realize they can't take down a cow in real life? I dunno, but there must be something to it. They don't care much for Ostrich either....another beast that wouldn't sucumb to an attack by a cat

Rabbit
Duck
Chicken

These are all favorites for them. Rabbit being the number one paws up choice.
post #68 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Bengals
Just a note to those that are attempting or have attempted Raw feedings:

It has been my experience with our adult bengals, that they don't care for raw beef in the least bit. Some of them will nibble at it, others turn away in disgust. Some will eat fully cooked premium steak cuts though! (Yeah, they aren't getting those too often, )
The kittens who are weaning will eat raw beef pretty readily, but not with the same gusto as rabbit or chicken.

It would appear that our cats like to eat what they might be able to hunt down in the wild. Do they realize they can't take down a cow in real life? I dunno, but there must be something to it. They don't care much for Ostrich either....another beast that wouldn't sucumb to an attack by a cat

Rabbit
Duck
Chicken

These are all favorites for them. Rabbit being the number one paws up choice.
Jamie likes beef, rabbit and lamb. He generally won't eat any type of poultry, unless it's mixed with fish. ZsaZsa will sometimes eat chicken, but no other poultry.
post #69 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Bengals
I don't think the poll itself is biased. The poll offers choices for members to vote on the topic of feeding the raw diet. When I created the poll, I just wanted yes or no answers, but I threw in a couple of other choices as well.
Please, no offense intended here, but since this is a poll, I'll pitch in with some thoughts...

I greatly respect your dedication to providing what you feel is the best for your cats, but the poll does seem a little biased to me - it offers the "yes" option and several "no" options, but the no options all come with attached reasons, as though they're "excuses" for not feeding what you consider the only acceptable food. That's where I think the comments about bias in the poll may have come from.

Raw meat diet: not enough scientific validity to support use

I'm not saying commercial foods are ideal either - but IMO they are fine as an option, and the owner who feeds commercial shouldn't feel like he/she must make excuses for not feeding raw.

I also have some concerns about how truly complete a raw diet is. A wild or feral cat's diet consists largely of insects, lizards and squirrels - birds and rabbits are sometimes caught by the best hunters, but not very often. Certainly domestic cats don't go out and catch chickens, ducks and cows. And when they eat their prey, they eat the 'gross' stuff too - whenever my former outdoor cat Oreo caught a white-winged dove, the only thing he left behind was beak, feet, and feathers. My feral girl frequently catches lizards, and leaves only the tails behind (I have no idea why she never eats the tails -maybe they're her trophy?). Do the meats and supplements provided in a raw diet account for that? (this question isn't meant critically - I'm honestly curious).

For anyone who is seriously considering rabbit hunting for raw meat for their cats (or for people whose cats hunt mice, for that matter), don't forget that they're a source of tapeworms.

As far as salmonella goes, I may be wrong but it's my understanding that cooking kills salmonella - which would mean that canned & dry prepackaged foods would not carry salmonella (unless they were contaminated after being cooked), but raw meat definitely can.

Raw Food Diets: Popular pet diet may pose significant health risks for you and your pet


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Bengals
Do I think everyone should feed their cat a raw diet? Yes I do, but not without learning the facts first and doing it correctly.
I agree that people feeding a raw diet should definitely do their research & make sure their cat(s) get all the necessary nutrients. I'm pleased to see that those on this board who advocate raw diets take the time to provide resources and information to those who are interested.

Safer handling of raw pet food meatFDA Issues Final Guidance on Raw Meat for Animals

That said, I don't think everyone should feed their cat a raw diet - personally, I'd say get your vet's opinion first. If you're seriously considering raw & your vet dismisses the idea without giving you reasons, then look for a holistic vet - especially if your cat is on a prescription food. But please don't change your cat's diet without a vet's approval.

One of my cats is on a prescription diet, and I have no intention of going against my vet's advice for his food. The others (all of my cats are senior) are doing well and are quite healthy on a high-quality commercial food, and I see no reason to mess around with something that's been working well for us.



post #70 of 74
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedokitties
Please, no offense intended here, but since this is a poll, I'll pitch in with some thoughts...

I greatly respect your dedication to providing what you feel is the best for your cats, but the poll does seem a little biased to me - it offers the "yes" option and several "no" options, but the no options all come with attached reasons (none of which I feel really apply to me), as though they're "excuses" for not feeding what you consider the only acceptable food. That's where I think the comments about bias in the poll may have come from.

Raw meat diet: not enough scientific validity to support use

I'm not saying commercial foods are ideal either - but IMO they are fine as an option, and the owner who feeds commercial shouldn't feel like he/she must make excuses for not feeding raw.

I also have some concerns about how truly complete a raw diet is. A wild or feral cat's diet consists largely of insects, lizards and squirrels - birds and rabbits are sometimes caught by the best hunters, but not very often. Certainly domestic cats don't go out and catch chickens, ducks and cows. And when they eat their prey, they eat the 'gross' stuff too - whenever my former outdoor cat Oreo caught a white-winged dove, the only thing he left behind was beak, feet, and feathers. My feral girl frequently catches lizards, and leaves only the tails behind (I have no idea why she never eats the tails -maybe they're her trophy?). Do the meats and supplements provided in a raw diet account for that? (this question isn't meant critically - I'm honestly curious).

For anyone who is seriously considering rabbit hunting for raw meat for their cats (or for people whose cats hunt mice, for that matter), don't forget that they're a source of tapeworms.

As far as salmonella goes, I may be wrong but it's my understanding that cooking kills salmonella - which would mean that canned & dry prepackaged foods would not carry salmonella (unless they were contaminated after being cooked), but raw meat definitely can.

FDA Issues Final Guidance on Raw Meat for Animals




I agree that people feeding a raw diet should definitely do their research & make sure their cat(s) get all the necessary nutrients. I'm pleased to see that those on this board who advocate raw diets take the time to provide resources and information to those who are interested.

That said, I don't think everyone should feed their cat a raw diet - personally, I'd say get your vet's opinion first. If you're seriously considering raw & your vet dismisses the idea without giving you reasons, then look for a holistic vet - especially if your cat is on a prescription food. But please don't change your cat's diet without a vet's approval.

One of my cats is on a prescription diet, and I have no intention of going against my vet's advice for his food. The others (all of my cats are senior) are doing well and are quite healthy on a high-quality commercial food, and I see no reason to mess around with something that's been working well for us.



First of all, thank-you for taking the time to respond with your thoughts, concerns, etc. That's what this thread was for! I'm very happy that people are thinking this through and not dismissing it as bunk.

I still don't believe the poll is biased, but I now realize it would have been better to just give 2 choices...yes or no, since I couldn't possible think of every reason someone else might choose for saying no. If the answer is yes, it's the end of the story.

This thread and poll was certainly not started to make people who feed commercial foods feel bad or attacked for their feeding choice. In reality, about 95% of pet owners feed commercial foods, not raw, even though the poll indicates otherwise. If anyone has to come up with excuses and reasons why, it is the people who advocate the raw diet. Unfortunately we are always questioned and under attack. But I welcome the controversy because my convictions in this regard are strong.

The raw diet that I personally feed is complete..including the "gross stuff" as you call it. Do I still feed them some commercial kibble?....yep sometimes. Cats like variety too. I consider it their "McDonalds-like treats".

Dr Pitcairn has a book out called: Complete guide to natural health for dogs and cats. On page 26 he writes, and I quote: " You should be aware that most veterinarians oppose feeding raw meat because of concern about diseases like salmonella or E-coli. However, after 17 years of experience in recommending the practice, I can attest to seeing no problem with infections from these diseases. On the contrary, I observed an improved level of health."
End quote.
My vet completely and totally agrees with Dr. Pitcairn and he has been practicing for over 20 years.

I don't think people should completely rely on their Vet's opinion about feeding their animals. Most vets today are entrenched with the commercial pet food industry and their opinions are subtly censored by that industry. If you see Science diet, Iams and Eukanuba offered for sale at your Vets office, they are very unlikely to advocate raw feeding.

That said, it's not my intention to brow beat people to switch their cats over to a raw diet. I can only state what a difference it's made in the health and emotional well being of our own cats. Not just one cat, but over 20 of them.
I will never put them back on an exclusive commercial foods diet. I would be remiss in my duty as their guardian based on what I have observed.

I think people who are having troubles with their cats health, weight issues, gastro-intestinal issues, behavior problems, etc. and have tried other remedies, should look into changing their cats diet to a more natural one.

It makes a difference.

If people are convinced their cats are doing wonderfully on commercial foods...why fix something that isn't broken? I'm completely on board with that. Whatever is in the best interest of the cat's health.

post #71 of 74
I am not going to do it. There is so much controversy on this subject and I don't think the meat in my grocery store is freshly killed like a mouse in the wild. It's had time to sit and collect bacteria. And I'm just not comfortable with it which is why I think it would be a good idea to also consider alternatives on what would contribute to a healthy diet for cats when it comes to cat owners who don't want to feed raw meat. How about including some occasional homemade treats in the cat's basically commercial diet such as a cooked turkey heart or liver or plain cooked chicken or a scrambled egg. These are much healthier than any commercialized Pounce or Friskies treat. Or one could consider the possibility of preparing an occasional homemade meal that is balanced. There are also homemade cooked diets for cats as an option which is what Ann Martin who wrote "Food Pets Die For" feeds her pets. If someone wants to feed a cat or dog completely on homemade food raw or cooked then that person has to do the research. For me I'll stick with canned food even if I do get into occasional homemade cooked food. Cats need a lot of water in their diet. That's where raw can be an advantage but I'm still not comfortable with it.
post #72 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeBrayandAmber
I just recently started looking into beginning a raw food diet for my cats and dog. For those of you that do this what recipes do you use? Also, I just read that you shoud not use liver every day because of its Vitamin A content, which can be toxic to cats (especially if you're using liver along with a supplement). Is this true? And if so, how often should I put liver in? Also, can I use the same diet for both of my cats, and how often/much should I give each and my dog? TIA!
I don't use any particula recipe. I feed my cats a variety of raw meaty bones, muscle meat and organ meat. I only keep track of the proportions. It's absolutely correct that liver should be fed with caution. It should be organic and it should come from young animals since it stores toxins and then there's the high level of vitamin A that in to large amounts can cause illness. The diet shouldn't contain more than 10% liver. If one feed the cats 5-10% of liver they get enough of vitamin A (and other nutrients of course), but they are not in danger of contracting hypervitaminosis A. About 80 grams of liver a week should be enough, but of course it depends on the size of the cat. 5-10% of the diet...
post #73 of 74
I voted "don't know enough" cause that's the way it is: everywhere you have pro and con discussions and for the present I'll stick to commercial food though not the super-cheap kind.
My cats will readily eat bits of chicken, fish or minced meat etc. that I give them when I cook, but apart from that I give them commercial food. You hear about all those diseases, starting with salmonella and definitely not ending with worms! Unless it's fresh meat I'm simply too concerned that they might catch some bug or end up with an upset stomach plus they're rather picky
Carter once caught a bird and brought it in , but since he only nibbled at it, we found it several days later (under a staircase, he knew we couldn't reach in there, old rascal!) and it was basically just a maggot-eaten bunch of feathers , so I'm not happy with those dead-bird things either...
Pretty confusing!
post #74 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by CommonOddity042
i've wondered about that. with so many trying so hard to feed food that was as close as possible to a cat's natural diet, i was beginning to wonder if some were feeding cats an actual natural diet of pre-killed mice and birds that have been pretested for diseases.
There are suppliers that cater to snake owners with frozen rats, mice, chicks, etc. and I have begun to research feeding these to cats. What {if anything} would I need to supplement them with? Almost all of the raw diet info I have been able to find, deals with trying to approximate a mouse as closely as possible--well, since it is possible to get the real thing frozen, wouldn't the frozen mice be even better?

I am trying everything to get all of my cats off of purina pro plan kibble and onto first a good canned food, then eventually a raw diet. I have two of them on Wellness canned already and they are fine on that for now. The other four I'm still working on--they are pickier. I figure that once I have them on the canned I can begin mixing raw slowly in and they will switch to all raw.
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