Raw Diet....yes, no, maybe?

catguy · Oct 8, 2005

Originally Posted by Purr

I use Feline Instincts. It has everything in it already and you just add muscle meat and liver--but I get their liver too, so I add that instead. It has dried egg yolk, steamed bone meal, gelatin, organic kelp, psyllium husk powder, taurine, natural vitamin E, complex vitamin B, adrenal glands from New Zealand, Kidney glands from New Zealand, enzymes, and probiotics. You put in 6 tablespoons of it with 3 tablespoons of liver and two salmon oil capsules per 2lbs of meat.

this link explains the ingredients: http://www.felineinstincts.com/Felin...formation.html

What do you think about that?

thats good stuff too. its actually very similar to CAW. the only reason I use CAW is because Wysong was willing to send me a data sheet letting me know exactly whats in CAW per each gram. FF was very unwilling to disclose much to me. But im sure FF is just fine, im just a little obsessed with details.

kai bengals · Oct 8, 2005

Thanks for all your responses and the voting!

I may poll the TCS members again in a few months to see if ideas, thoughts and percentages have changed.
This subject has created some conflict on the board recently in several different threads...but that's a good thing. Debate on this subject leads to knowledge and understanding.
I believe most people do what they think is best for their cats in the way of nutrition. I applaud this.

I would ask that people keep in mind that cats have been domesticated for thousands of years and the pet food industry has been around for about 80 years. What were cats eating before the pet food industry came about?

Food for thought!

nebula11 · Oct 8, 2005

Originally Posted by Kai Bengals

Thanks for all your responses and the voting!

I may poll the TCS members again in a few months to see if ideas, thoughts and percentages have changed.
This subject has created some conflict on the board recently in several different threads...but that's a good thing. Debate on this subject leads to knowledge and understanding.
I believe most people do what they think is best for their cats in the way of nutrition. I applaud this.

I would ask that people keep in mind that cats have been domesticated for thousands of years and the pet food industry has been around for about 80 years. What were cats eating before the pet food industry came about?

Food for thought!

I hope you do Poll TCS again...i think it would be interesting....but to be fair your Poll may appear quite biased, and leaves a few options out.....
Like Stephanie brought up she does not feed her cats a Raw diet because of personal research that she has done.....
and I am not able to feed my kits a raw diet because of the dissolution formula that Emmet is on for Crystals.....

If you really want an apperently unbiased and true polling of this community, you need to include these...and maybe other options, other wise you are not going to be able to come to any scientific and accurate conclusions.....

I believe it is the specific kit owners "choice" what they feed thier cats, and if you yourself believe that Raw is much better..And i am not here to dissagree, then I hope you will put all sides of the spectrum into your poll....Otherwise it can become missleading, and may result in kit owners not doing the proper research needed to make such a disicion.....and in the end leading to Raw feeders, being no better then the vets and kibble comapnies that are doing the same thing.......

Hope you understand, and I cant wait to see the next poll reults...

bengalbabe · Oct 8, 2005

You know,there hasd been a lot of progress made on this board with raw feeders not
being afraid to come out with the fact they feed raw. About 6 months ago I asked about feeding raw because I was considering it and I only got a few responses and all except one person said stuff like "cats have evolved to the point where they can't tolorate raw anymore". And "your cats will get samonella poisioning and die!" I think the only person who said they feed raw is a person who owns
bobcats and of course he would feed bobocats raw.

bengalbabe · Oct 8, 2005

Originally Posted by catguy

I dont grind bones, so I use CAW. And believe it or not there are many nutrients that would be missing if one were to only feed muslce/heart/liver meat. Now if one is feeding whole carcass, then thats another matter. But the former lacks things like enough vitamin D, E, iron, manganese, iodine and others. This site lists minum requirements:

http://www.peteducation.com/category...cls=1&cat=1400

I spent a while crunching numbers and wysong was pretty genius when they made CAW because it never provides excess but makes sure miniums are met. Most of the time more than minimums but never excess. I made Wysong send me a data sheet of CAW which lists exactly whats contained per tsp. So this is why I know there are no excesses.

I gotta start looking for cheaper sources with same quality because $22 per week cant go on forever.

OIC then yes you should definately feed suppliment (which you already knew)
I was using Wildtrax for awhile.

moggiegirl · Oct 8, 2005

Originally Posted by Nebula11

I hope you do Poll TCS again...i think it would be interesting....but to be fair your Poll may appear quite biased, and leaves a few options out.....
Like Stephanie brought up she does not feed her cats a Raw diet because of personal research that she has done.....
and I am not able to feed my kits a raw diet because of the dissolution formula that Emmet is on for Crystals.....

If you really want an apperently unbiased and true polling of this community, you need to include these...and maybe other options, other wise you are not going to be able to come to any scientific and accurate conclusions.....

I believe it is the specific kit owners "choice" what they feed thier cats, and if you yourself believe that Raw is much better..And i am not here to dissagree, then I hope you will put all sides of the spectrum into your poll....Otherwise it can become missleading, and may result in kit owners not doing the proper research needed to make such a disicion.....and in the end leading to Raw feeders, being no better then the vets and kibble comapnies that are doing the same thing.......

Hope you understand, and I cant wait to see the next poll reults...

Yes, I agree. Because I don't like to be made to feel wrong for choosing not to feed raw. Millions of cats and dogs have lived long, some even into their 20's on commercial pet food. For me the BARF diet is inconvenient and I don't think my cats who are so used to dry and canned cat food will eat a BARF diet. Why buy so much meat, make a recipe only to throw it in the trash? Then the chicken will have died for nothing. It would be a difficult struggle trying to make them eat it and without knowing if the raw meat from the Vons grocery store where I shop is safe and getting so much dissapproval from my vet. And I've read that there have been actual cases of cats and dogs getting salmonella poisoning from eating raw meat. I think there is a difference between a freshly caught mouse and meat that's been sitting around for days in a grocery store. Maybe it's not as likely that they will get salmonella as it is for people but does that really mean that they are totally immune to it? I am way too scared to take the risk.

mimosa · Oct 9, 2005

If you truly believe what you feed is best, you shouldn't feel wrong. But it's great that people who believe that feeding raw is best can come out and say that, and they are made to feel wrong too, as Bengalbabe said, with comments like your "cats will get samonella poisioning and die!", I've heard things like: "the way you're feeding is in fact animal cruelty, cats can't live without kibble." Why reactions like this ? Because there seems to be very little middle ground between the opinions on feeding kibble and feeding raw.

I myself have chosen a more positive model, regular kibble = good, "ecological" kibble= better, raw = best. And I respect everyone for the choices they make in this, because you don't achieve anything by being judgmental, if you are just open about what you feed people who are interested will make themselves known to you anyway, and I won't hesitate to persuade them to try it. Because I do believe raw feeding is best, so I want others to profit from it too.

And yes, there are pets that have lived long and healthy lives on kibble, so that should probably be fine. But there are also a lot of them who have had to live with conditions which could have been prevented and even cured if they had been fed a raw diet. To me kibble is so recent I view it as an experiment of sorts, although I don't doubt it is here to stay because it is so convenient to feed. I have this delightful Dutch childrens book from the sixties, stories and poems about two cats and a subject that comes up again and again is how they love the butcher, the fishmonger and the "cat-meat"-man, who goes door to door selling fresh meats as catfood. There is even one story where their owner decides to try out canned food on them and they go on a hungerstrike. I also know an old lady who has bred Persians all her life and remembers the introduction of kibble into her cattery, they were delighted because it was so easy to store and so little work to feed. Until the malformed kittens started to be born because of the doses of Ethoxyquin. I have known about raw feeding for 1.5 years before I started doing it, but hearing personal experiences like these just kept adding up for me, like my best friends young cat getting struvite, and older people kept telling me that it was so weird because in their time cats got struvite when they were old.

You won't know if your cats will eat barf or not until you try it, right ? And I take the time to feed them this way with pleasure, but that's my own choice. I have read studies about cats with salmonella too, both from cats who were fed raw and cats who were fed a commercial diet. (when will people get it into their heads processed foods are not guaranteed salmonella-free ? 30% of all dogs have salmonella in their stools) You should just be very careful with cats that have a compromised immune system, they are at risk from salmonella. My female has a uveitis right now (she started having these before I fed raw), she doesn't get any BARF right now but I do feed her raw premade food, because I know the manufacturer cultures it for salmonella and other bacteria before a batch leaves the factory.

kai bengals · Oct 9, 2005

I don't think the poll itself is biased. The poll offers choices for members to vote on the topic of feeding the raw diet. When I created the poll, I just wanted yes or no answers, but I threw in a couple of other choices as well. I didn't take the time to create choices to cover every possible feeding scenario. That was not the intent of this particular poll.

For the next poll, I'll give it some more in depth thought and come up with more choices so everyone feels they have an appropriate answer to select for their feeding situation.
Are the comments on this thread biased? Certainly, especially the ones from me. But then again, I am an outspoken proponent of feeding a raw diet.
Do I think everyone should feed their cat a raw diet? Yes I do, but not without learning the facts first and doing it correctly.
I believe the only way for people to learn facts about anything, is to be made aware enough of something to become interested in learning more about it.

purr · Oct 9, 2005

Originally Posted by bengalbabe

You know,there hasd been a lot of progress made on this board with raw feeders not
being afraid to come out with the fact they feed raw. About 6 months ago I asked about feeding raw because I was considering it and I only got a few responses and all except one person said stuff like "cats have evolved to the point where they can't tolorate raw anymore". And "your cats will get samonella poisioning and die!" I think the only person who said they feed raw is a person who owns
bobcats and of course he would feed bobocats raw.

I agree. I hate being in a minority. I also try really hard not to make it seem like I think I am better than people who don't feed raw or love my cat more or know 100% that it is better. It's a really touchy subject, but I think people are less touchy about it now.

sol · Oct 10, 2005

Yes, my cats eat an homemade raw diet. They've been on an all raw diet for 2 years and they've never been better. It took some time to get started... read all the things that "should" be read... getting the cats to eat raw meat, but now when the hard part is over I have absolutely no regrets.

I get sick and tired of people telling me what I should do and wha I should do. Apparently I'm making my (according to my vet very healthy) cats sick by not feeding the "The Best Dry Food In The World". Obviously (accordning to many of those people who have fed their cats dry food only for... yeah, forever) I'm also working my ass of in the kitchen every day in order to make sure my cats "get everything they need". Someone actuarally asked me if I had a chemistry lab in my kitchen in order to make "balanced food" for my cats

There are so many myths about raw food and I'm sick of people just asuming the myths are true. Why not just ask raw feeders what they do, how they do it and how their cats are doing in the diet? How hard can it be?

avocado · Oct 10, 2005

ive been fortunate to find almost nothing but support since i started feeding my carniverous pets raw... my vet's first response was something like "wow, thats great, i wish i had the time to feed my dogs like that!" most of the questions that people ask me are understandable and are questions that i asked myself when the concept was new to me.. like, "what about salmonella" and "i thought that you were never supposed to give them chicken bones"... and IMO it is perfectly reasonable that these questions be asked esp. since we have been made to believe (by our vets, petfood companies, etc) that the only way to feed an animal is with a prepackaged processed food that is created by a scientist in a labcoat. BUT, through a lot of reading and consulting other raw feeders and my vet i was able to answer these questions for myself and i am perfectly comfortable feeding my pets in this way.

feline · Oct 10, 2005

I voted "No, what is a raw diet?", because I, well, don't know what a raw diet is.

arlyn · Oct 10, 2005

Raw muscle meat, bone, organ meat, and if necessary some suppliments.

lionessrampant · Oct 10, 2005

My vet and I actually had a conversation about this today. Basically, the conclusion we reached together is that, like feeding commercial food, feeding raw has its definite risks, even if it is more 'natural'. He has treated cats who have had problems with both diets! He unfortunately knew a woman who contracted toxoplasmosis while handling the raw meat and had an early miscarriage (she didn't know she was expecting yet)...so yeah, I'm going to go with the opinion that there is absolutely no 'right' or 'perfect' way to feed your cat. My personal opinion is that with my complete and utter discomfort with the meat industry and the availibility of human-grade, super premium foods like Evo and holistic canned foods, my cats aren't really missing out on much not eating raw meat, especially since Evo includes the connective tissue, etc. They get canned, they get grain-free dry, they get cooked and freeze dried meat. Leo is a healthy, happy cat, and since her July rescue in which she was almost dead, Lola is definitely on her way to a perfect bill of health.

kai bengals · Oct 11, 2005

I tried EVO when it first came out since it showed promise to be a good food to recommend to our kitten buyers who didn't want to feed the raw diet. The ingredients seem much better than most.

It caused some loose stools and even for the non loose stools....phew! Stinky stinky. They couldn't digest it well at all.

Because of the smell, the cats would then constantly try to cover the EVO food.

I really dislike all the kibble brands, I don't care who makes it or what is in it. But, since I have to pick one for our kitten buyers to feed with and of course we need to get our kittens accustomed to eating it before they go to their new homes, I settled for Purina One. Not because I think it better than any of the rest of them...the ingredients are just ok, but not spectacular. Our kittens and adults are able to eat this, digest it and have normal bowel movements with no huge stench. They enjoy the taste and there is never the urge by them to "cover it up".

lionessrampant · Oct 11, 2005

Originally Posted by Kai Bengals

I tried EVO when it first came out since it showed promise to be a good food to recommend to our kitten buyers who didn't want to feed the raw diet. The ingredients seem much better than most.

It caused some loose stools and even for the non loose stools....phew! Stinky stinky. They couldn't digest it well at all.

Because of the smell, the cats would then constantly try to cover the EVO food.

I really dislike all the kibble brands, I don't care who makes it or what is in it. But, since I have to pick one for our kitten buyers to feed with and of course we need to get our kittens accustomed to eating it before they go to their new homes, I settled for Purina One. Not because I think it better than any of the rest of them...the ingredients are just ok, but not spectacular. Our kittens and adults are able to eat this, digest it and have normal bowel movements with no huge stench. They enjoy the taste and there is never the urge by them to "cover it up".

See, further proof that it really depends on the situation! My cats do quite well on Evo...other than one isolated incident with Lola, everyone's litterbox activity is fine and they seem to really like the food. Mine don't try to cover it either...They're healthy and happy, so I'm not going to fix what's not broken, just like people who feed raw and have good results shouldn't. It's really just finding a high quality food (raw or commercial) that works. Even with wet vs. dry, my vet and I discussed how he'd rather see cats eat like, say, a Wellness or Innova dry exclusively, rather than see them eat some kind of random grocery store wet. I think it boils down to the ingredients and quality more than anything. You could have a really ill-prepared raw that doesn't deliver all the ingredients...it really just depends.

moggiegirl · Oct 11, 2005

Here is an article from a veterinarian Dr Belfield who believes in homemade cooked diets for both cats and dogs. He worked as a meat inspector for 7 years before becoming a vet. And Ann Martin who wrote "Food Pets Die For" and mentions Dr Belfield in her books doesn't feed raw meat. She cooks for her pets and can claim her pets are very healthy. I'm not saying raw meat is wrong but If I were to go with homemade food I would be more likely to follow this path.

kai bengals · Oct 11, 2005

Check out Dr. Picairn's complete guide to natural health for Dogs & Cats. This guy has been a Vet for many decades and is a staunch supporter and advocate for the Raw diet.

Vets do disagree with each other on this subject.

Again, I would like to point out that the pet food industry has only been in place for about 80 years.

What were all the domestic cats eating before that?

moggiegirl · Oct 11, 2005

Originally Posted by moggiegirl

Here is an article from a veterinarian Dr Belfield who believes in homemade cooked diets for both cats and dogs. He worked as a meat inspector for 7 years before becoming a vet. And Ann Martin who wrote "Food Pets Die For" and mentions Dr Belfield in her books doesn't feed raw meat. She cooks for her pets and can claim her pets are very healthy. I'm not saying raw meat is wrong but If I were to go with homemade food I would be more likely to follow this path.

I forgot to add the link.

www.belfield.com/article11.html

laureen227 · Oct 11, 2005

Originally Posted by Kai Bengals

Again, I would like to point out that the pet food industry has only been in place for about 80 years.

What were all the domestic cats eating before that?

probably table scraps & vermin they caught themselves. i seem to remember reading that people could get liver & other meats free from the butcher because people didn't eat them. but i really think they weren't so catered to 80 years ago - people felt cats could 'do for themselves'.

Raw Diet....yes, no, maybe?

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Darksome Duo!