Raw Diet....yes, no, maybe?

plebayo · Oct 6, 2005

What kind of perks are they supposed to be getting? We get more money and "perks" out of vaccines and prescriptions not food.

And veterinarians don't promote those foods because they aren't proven to help with DJD, they aren't proven to help a pet lose weight, they aren't proven to give an animal with kidney failure a longer life span.

kai bengals · Oct 7, 2005

Originally Posted by Plebayo

What kind of perks are they supposed to be getting? We get more money and "perks" out of vaccines and prescriptions not food.

And veterinarians don't promote those foods because they aren't proven to help with DJD, they aren't proven to help a pet lose weight, they aren't proven to give an animal with kidney failure a longer life span.

I don't really have enough time to explain in detail the perks that exist, but suffice it to say, that "perks" doesn't mean being handed a check every month.

The flaw in your argument is that the same companies that make the prescription diets are the very ones that make the foods that have been linked to the reason cats become fat and become prone to kidney failure.
If there wasn't a problem with these big food companies, there wouldn't be any of these discussions on the boards about nutrition and which is the best food to feed our cats.

plebayo · Oct 7, 2005

Bummer, it would be nice to know what we're supposed to be getting so we could complain about it.

ravyn · Oct 7, 2005

Yet more and more it is becoming proven that processed kibble cat food is CAUSING kidney failures, overweight pets, poor coats, tooth decay, diabetes, renal failure...the list goes on.

Kibble food hasn't been around that long. For thousands of years cats ate nothing but raw and some cooked table scraps. It's amazing that kibble comes along as a means for meat companies to make money off of their cast-off scraps and less than a hundred years later people seem to think that it is a horrible horrible thing to feed pets what they are naturally designed to eat, and instead feel they can subsist on what really is nothing more than glorified, meat-flavored cereal.

Plebayo, this is not directed at you. I don't know how things work at the clinic you work at. However at our old vet clinic (one we went to for years and years and years before we moved), the vets most certainly recieved perks from the pet food company for promoting Science Diet in their clinic. They recieved money, advertising gimmicks (coffee mugs, pens, etc. that had both the name of the food and the pet clinic on them) and the senior vet also recieved a expenses paid trip every year to attend a 'nutrition' seminar, that pretty much consisted of an hour listening to a lecture on how wonderful Science Diet was, and the rest of the week with a fully paid hotel, food, and ammenities.

I call those perks.

purr · Oct 7, 2005

When I first decided to get Cupid and was trying to decide what to feed him, my first question was "what is natural for him to eat?" Who am I to disagree with Mother Nature? I simply improve upon what he has evolved to eat. When I did research for months before and after I got him, all roads led me to a raw diet. I went to canned food once because it was so much easier to relate to people, and I didn't have to explain my reasoning behind it all the time. People know that cats eat cat food, period. If you tell them they eat raw food, it blows their minds. "Whaaaat? Can't that make them sick?!" Then it's the first cause for anything that's ever wrong. "He sneezed! OMG you should have fed him canned food!"

In the past year or so, people's thinking has progressed and I've seen many more people (here, mostly) feeding or considering feeding raw food diets. I never needed confirmation of my belief that it's the best thing for cats & dogs (no one I know--except for a few breeders--feed their cats/dogs raw), but it helps!

I remember when I first posted about a raw food diet here, I only got a few responses. When I switched him to canned food, I felt terrible. Something was wrong. I continued my research and it led me right back to where I started.

Of course, I don't think canned food is bad for them--not the good ones. Not a day goes by that I wish I could just give him canned food, but I can't in good conscience because first of all, he absolutely loves his food, and secondly, I know how good it is for him.

bengalbabe · Oct 7, 2005

I think everyone here knows how I feel about a raw diet i've been pretty vocal about it lately. I have to add that yesterday I ran out of my raw mixture and the cats were driving me crazy because they wanted thier food. Well, I fed them some premium brand kibble I had left from my old days and my charcoal female got sick and would'nt play and threw up. I think my cat's have told me what they think about kibble!!!

moggiegirl · Oct 7, 2005

I think a high quality canned food is the next best thing to raw meat. It has the moisture cats need and it's high in protein and low in carbs. I do agree that a properly prepared nutritionally balanced raw meat diet is good for cats but I won't get into it because of the level of knowledge, skill, and time and supplements required and the fact that things can go wrong and because of the risk of salmonella and the fact that my cats probably won't eat it. I once offered Spotty a piece of raw hamburger meat and he didn't even touch it. Rosie ate it but threw up shortly afterwards. The last time I offered Rosie and Spotty a piece of rare steak off my plate they were not interested. So for me it really is easier to stick with a high quality prepared commercial food. I feed both dry and canned and buy the highest quality food I can afford and now I'm avoiding by-products.

bengalbabe · Oct 7, 2005

Originally Posted by moggiegirl

I think a high quality canned food is the next best thing to raw meat. It has the moisture cats need and it's high in protein and low in carbs. I do agree that a properly prepared nutritionally balanced raw meat diet is good for cats but I won't get into it because of the level of knowledge, skill, and time and supplements required and the fact that things can go wrong and because of the risk of salmonella and the fact that my cats probably won't eat it. I once offered Spotty a piece of raw hamburger meat and he didn't even touch it. Rosie ate it but threw up shortly afterwards. The last time I offered Rosie and Spotty a piece of rare steak off my plate they were not interested. So for me it really is easier to stick with a high quality prepared commercial food. I feed both dry and canned and buy the highest quality food I can afford and now I'm avoiding by-products.

Your right, high quality canned is much better then dry but still not all that great.
It is a myth that cats get salmonella from raw. They have a short intestinal tract designed to digest raw meat. Cats can get salmonella if they are already sick and thier immunity is low but they can get it from canned and dry as easily if not easier then from raw meat. If that was the case all feral and non domestic wild cats would be dead from salmonella poisioning!
It is also a myth that you have to be a rocket scientist to be able to feed your cats a raw diet. I'd love to believe that im smarter then the average bear but im probably not. It is very easy to feed raw. All you have to remember is to feed the whole animal. Feed the skin, bones, oragans and muscle meat. Mother nature provides the balance.
I don't feed beef because cats don't naturally catch and eat a cow in the wild. And if the beef was cold that might contribute to the throwing up.

kai bengals · Oct 7, 2005

Originally Posted by moggiegirl

I think a high quality canned food is the next best thing to raw meat. It has the moisture cats need and it's high in protein and low in carbs. I do agree that a properly prepared nutritionally balanced raw meat diet is good for cats but I won't get into it because of the level of knowledge, skill, and time and supplements required and the fact that things can go wrong and because of the risk of salmonella and the fact that my cats probably won't eat it. I once offered Spotty a piece of raw hamburger meat and he didn't even touch it. Rosie ate it but threw up shortly afterwards. The last time I offered Rosie and Spotty a piece of rare steak off my plate they were not interested. So for me it really is easier to stick with a high quality prepared commercial food. I feed both dry and canned and buy the highest quality food I can afford and now I'm avoiding by-products.

Just a note about the raw hamburger. Seems that most cats will puke this up or not touch it. None of our adult Bengals like Beef.
I've experimented with different types of raw meat with our bengals.
Here's the Info:

Beef: 100% of the adults HATE it. 50% of the kittens like it.

Chicken: 75% of the adults like it. 100% of the kittens like it.

Ostrich: 50% of the adults like it. 95% of the kittens like it.

Salmon: 100% of the adults HATE it. 95% of the kittens like it.

Duck: 75% of the adults like it. 100% of the kittens like it.

Rabbit: 100% of the adults LOVE it. 100% of the kittens LOVE it.

bengalbabe · Oct 7, 2005

hmmm rabbit huh? Where do you by rabbit by chance? I wouldn't mind trying that if I can get good access to it. Im sure cats would catch small rabbits in the wild.

kai bengals · Oct 7, 2005

The rabbit I use is whole ground rabbit..bones and all. (No fur of course)
Since this sort of thing isn't readily available at grocery stores, I purchase it from a distributor for BRAVO! products. It comes frozen and completely prepared. If you're interested I'll link you to their website.
The other alternative for me in our area, would be to go out and shoot the rabbits myself. I won't do that, since I have a tough time even ending a spiders life that ventures into our home. I scoop him up and let him out.

laureen227 · Oct 7, 2005

Originally Posted by Kai Bengals

The rabbit I use is whole ground rabbit..bones and all. (No fur of course)
Since this sort of thing isn't readily available at grocery stores, I purchase it from a distributor for BRAVO! products. It comes frozen and completely prepared. If you're interested I'll link you to their website.
The other alternative for me in our area, would be to go out and shoot the rabbits myself. I won't do that, since I have a tough time even ending a spiders life that ventures into our home. I scoop him up and let him out.

i'd be interested - i'm thinking of changing from canned to raw, if it can be done fairly easily. i was thinking of ordering the already prepared stuff... does it have to be supplemented? i was also trying to work out a 'cost-per-meal' based on weight. how much do you feed per day, & how often?

catguy · Oct 7, 2005

Originally Posted by laureen227

i'd be interested - i'm thinking of changing from canned to raw, if it can be done fairly easily. i was thinking of ordering the already prepared stuff... does it have to be supplemented? i was also trying to work out a 'cost-per-meal' based on weight. how much do you feed per day, & how often?

The best raw food supp I think is Call of the Wild from Wysong. It contains everything to balance raw meat, especially calcium. It is the most worry free way to feed raw i believe. Here is a recipe that I use, along with Call of the Wild and a seperate bone meal supplement. I store the finished product in 4oz plastic containers. And in my case its 21 4-ounce containers per week. I rotate every week between chicken, turkey and low, moderate and high fat. Because in nature cats would NOT be eating the exact same thing week by week or even day by day. This is the high fat one (about 60% prot, 40% fat):

38oz ground chicken thigh
8oz chicken liver
8 omega 3 enhanced egg yolks
38oz chicken heart

In all honesty, you could get away with NOT using any organ meats with Call of the Wild, but it wont hurt and will only benefit your cats if you do. Also, I wouldn't use breast meat exlusively because it is too low in fat.

This is 84 ounces total, and lasts 1 week for my two male cats (6oz per cat per day). This recipe, and the other variations I use, have almost 50% more protein ounce for ounce than premium can foods, and 20% more fat. This is probably true about all raw diets.

With my boys what they are getting is basically a very thick meat "paste", because I grind everything up. So, I may have to add warm water at each feeding to make it easier to eat.

I shop at Whole Foods, the ground meat is $4.99/lb, liver and hearts are $2.59/lb. And a dozen omega-3 eggs are $2.99.

purr · Oct 7, 2005

Originally Posted by Kai Bengals

The rabbit I use is whole ground rabbit..bones and all. (No fur of course)
Since this sort of thing isn't readily available at grocery stores, I purchase it from a distributor for BRAVO! products. It comes frozen and completely prepared. If you're interested I'll link you to their website.
The other alternative for me in our area, would be to go out and shoot the rabbits myself. I won't do that, since I have a tough time even ending a spiders life that ventures into our home. I scoop him up and let him out.

I've thought about ordering rabbit from Bravo before, but I just can't bring myself to do it. Cupid eats chicken, turkey, ostrich, duck, and pheasant. I know he'd love rabbit (or at least I've always thought he would), but I think I would throw up.

bengalbabe · Oct 7, 2005

Originally Posted by Kai Bengals

The rabbit I use is whole ground rabbit..bones and all. (No fur of course)
Since this sort of thing isn't readily available at grocery stores, I purchase it from a distributor for BRAVO! products. It comes frozen and completely prepared. If you're interested I'll link you to their website.
The other alternative for me in our area, would be to go out and shoot the rabbits myself. I won't do that, since I have a tough time even ending a spiders life that ventures into our home. I scoop him up and let him out.

Yeah please send the link. I know there are jack rabbits everywhere out here. I'd probably never have to buy meat for my cats if I knew how to hunt. But then again im like you I can't kill and animal unless I know it needs to be put out of it's misery.

arlyn · Oct 7, 2005

See I can kill an animal, if it was a mercy killing, or if I knew it was needed, and/or would be used as food.
It's not something I've ever liked doing, though I suppose if I did, that'd make me some sort of a nutcase.
I have to put myself in a kind of 'zone' though to do it, and if (it's rarely happened) I didn't do a clean kill, I feel enormously guilty.

bengalbabe · Oct 7, 2005

Originally Posted by catguy

The best raw food supp I think is Call of the Wild from Wysong. It contains everything to balance raw meat, especially calcium. It is the most worry free way to feed raw i believe. Here is a recipe that I use, along with Call of the Wild and a seperate bone meal supplement. I store the finished product in 4oz plastic containers. And in my case its 21 4-ounce containers per week. I rotate every week between chicken, turkey and low, moderate and high fat. Because in nature cats would NOT be eating the exact same thing week by week or even day by day. This is the high fat one (about 60% prot, 40% fat):

38oz ground chicken thigh
8oz chicken liver
8 omega 3 enhanced egg yolks
38oz chicken heart

In all honesty, you could get away with NOT using any organ meats with Call of the Wild, but it wont hurt and will only benefit your cats if you do. Also, I wouldn't use breast meat exlusively because it is too low in fat.

This is 84 ounces total, and lasts 1 week for my two male cats (6oz per cat per day). This recipe, and the other variations I use, have almost 50% more protein ounce for ounce than premium can foods, and 20% more fat. This is probably true about all raw diets.

With my boys what they are getting is basically a very thick meat "paste", because I grind everything up. So, I may have to add warm water at each feeding to make it easier to eat.

I shop at Whole Foods, the ground meat is $4.99/lb, liver and hearts are $2.59/lb. And a dozen omega-3 eggs are $2.99.

Do they sell ckn hearts seperate at whole foods? If so i'll have to check that out. There is a butcher here that I have heard sells frozen bone/meat already ground for $1.00 a pound! Im going to look into that. I do like the idea of making my own though because I know exactly what goes into it.
BTW-you don't have to feed 38 oz. of heart if your only feeding 38 oz. of muscle meat because if a cat was to kill a 38 oz. bird how much do you think the heart would weigh?-just a thought.
Also if your grinding and adding the bone with the ckn thighs you do not need to suppliment with bone meal.
I used to suppliment with vitamins, ect. before but I don't anymore unless I run out of livers or hearts. The reason pet food compaines have to suppliment is because they cook the food so darn much that all the nutrients are cooked out. Raw feeders don't need to suppliment if they feed the whole animal (except obvious parts like feathers and such). You can overdo it with the suppliments. More is not always better when it comes to vitamins and minerals.

catguy · Oct 8, 2005

I dont grind bones, so I use CAW. And believe it or not there are many nutrients that would be missing if one were to only feed muslce/heart/liver meat. Now if one is feeding whole carcass, then thats another matter. But the former lacks things like enough vitamin D, E, iron, manganese, iodine and others. This site lists minum requirements:

http://www.peteducation.com/category...cls=1&cat=1400

I spent a while crunching numbers and wysong was pretty genius when they made CAW because it never provides excess but makes sure miniums are met. Most of the time more than minimums but never excess. I made Wysong send me a data sheet of CAW which lists exactly whats contained per tsp. So this is why I know there are no excesses.

I gotta start looking for cheaper sources with same quality because $22 per week cant go on forever.

mimosa · Oct 8, 2005

I think it is a shame that we have allowed pet food companies to influence us into thinking we are too stupid to feed our cats a complete diet ! Are you people able to cook for yourselves ? I know I am.

And I think that omnivores like us have a lot more nutritional choices to make than we have to for our carnivorous companions. Give them bones, organs and (muscle) meat in the right proportions and they should be doing great.

purr · Oct 8, 2005

Originally Posted by catguy

The best raw food supp I think is Call of the Wild from Wysong. It contains everything to balance raw meat, especially calcium. It is the most worry free way to feed raw i believe. Here is a recipe that I use, along with Call of the Wild and a seperate bone meal supplement. I store the finished product in 4oz plastic containers. And in my case its 21 4-ounce containers per week. I rotate every week between chicken, turkey and low, moderate and high fat. Because in nature cats would NOT be eating the exact same thing week by week or even day by day. This is the high fat one (about 60% prot, 40% fat):

38oz ground chicken thigh
8oz chicken liver
8 omega 3 enhanced egg yolks
38oz chicken heart

In all honesty, you could get away with NOT using any organ meats with Call of the Wild, but it wont hurt and will only benefit your cats if you do. Also, I wouldn't use breast meat exlusively because it is too low in fat.

This is 84 ounces total, and lasts 1 week for my two male cats (6oz per cat per day). This recipe, and the other variations I use, have almost 50% more protein ounce for ounce than premium can foods, and 20% more fat. This is probably true about all raw diets.

With my boys what they are getting is basically a very thick meat "paste", because I grind everything up. So, I may have to add warm water at each feeding to make it easier to eat.

I shop at Whole Foods, the ground meat is $4.99/lb, liver and hearts are $2.59/lb. And a dozen omega-3 eggs are $2.99.

I use Feline Instincts. It has everything in it already and you just add muscle meat and liver--but I get their liver too, so I add that instead. It has dried egg yolk, steamed bone meal, gelatin, organic kelp, psyllium husk powder, taurine, natural vitamin E, complex vitamin B, adrenal glands from New Zealand, Kidney glands from New Zealand, enzymes, and probiotics. You put in 6 tablespoons of it with 3 tablespoons of liver and two salmon oil capsules per 2lbs of meat.

this link explains the ingredients: http://www.felineinstincts.com/Felin...formation.html

What do you think about that?

Raw Diet....yes, no, maybe?

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