Sooooo glad I'm not on this jury

I think the question ofher being mentally ill is pretty much moot...of course she is. No-one in their right mind kills their children like that.

The big question is what to do with her. If we accept that she has a real illness,then she wasn't able to control her actions So the Death penalty serves no-one but those who are looking for "Revenge". For anyone outside the family to cry for 'revenge" is a bit suspect in itself. Life in prison;maybe..if there's treatment for her there,but more likely would result in her either being killed or completing her breakdown via suicide. Smacks of "revenge" again,doesn't it?

That leaves confinement to a medical hospital. Probably the best option IF the staff is competent. As you have read in my previous post I have doubts about that issue. Even if they "cure" her of this psycosis,there'll be the realization that she killed her own kids. That must be a terrible thing to realize...so what will that do to her mind??

However it goes this woman will never again be "free" in any real sense. I can't help but pity her too. I hope that if she really is insane that some day God will recieve her as a wounded soul and can forgive her and give her peace.

Incidentally..the problem I have with any death penalty is simply this. If I kill a man I believe threatens me or my family and it turns out it's the wrong man; I have MURDERED an innocent man and I am expected to pay the price. If the justice system executes a man and it is found out later he was innocent;it's just shrugged off and forgotten...even tho the system has done the same as me. Who pays the price for the innocent man there? Why is his life somehow less valuable than my victim?? So as participants in that system aren't we murderers too??

I just have this vision of standing before God and being asked.."Why did you kill one of the innocents??" And I will not even have the excuse of insanity.

It is so hard to know what to do when people are a potential danger to society through no fault of their own. It seems unfair both ways.

I agree with Kittyfoot that the responsibility ends up being with the doctors and officials. We can only hope that they do their jobs in this case and all others as well. And probably most of the time they do. I think the stories we hear in the news (like the one in your area you mentioned, Kittyfoot) are the occasional failures of the system.

In Britain they have the exact policy you described, dawn. If you are found not responsible for your actions due to mental illness, you are confined to a treatment center or hospital. If you are determined to be "cured" and want to leave, you go to jail for the crime you committed. I would imagine most people continue to be treated, as opposed to going for cured status. Either way, they are closely watched and the public has some protection from their actions.

From the article that Airprincess posted, it seems like that option is also available in this case, ie. finding her not guilty and involuntarily committing her to a mental institution. I hope that is the one they choose, and that she gets help somewhere besides jail or "the chair".

Originally posted by airprincess
Yates Drowning Deaths Trial Begins
The Associated Press
Feb 18 2002 9:34PM

Click to expand...

After reading that and how the cop described what he saw, I feel like I could vomit, I'm almost in tears and I feel like I have a rock in my gut. How could anyone justify any of that?????????????????? If she was warned to not have any more children because of mental health problems then she shouldn't have. And her husband is a bigger freaking idiot for standing by her, if my hubby killed my babies, he'd be dead too. ANd the same would go for me. I don't believe it is a dr's responsibility to hold these people's hand. A dr makes suggestions but cannot live y our life, if she was sick, which to me just seems like her way of being an easy way out of this, but anyways if she was, SHE should have taken any steps neccesary to make herself better or get the proper help and get her D*** tubes tied before adding a 5th child for her to slaughter.

The woman had enough sense to chase her 7 year old around in order to drown him too, but she was unaware of what she was doing?? Puhleeeze. I say fry her..why waste the money keeping someone like that alive. If I were her husband, she'd be dead already.

I don't think anyone involved in this case (or anyone discussing it in this thread) ever tried to justify her actions. Obviously it was a horrible thing that she killed her children. I'm sure she, like you, kezzer, wanted to vomit when she became aware of what she had done.

Also, just because she appeared to be aware of what she was doing doesn't mean she is not insane.
As I wrote in a previous post--

--Just because she "knew what she was doing", made plans and chased one of the children around does not mean she was not insane. Because she was insane (or mentally impaired or suffering from psychosis or whatever), she made wrong decisions. She felt that she had ruined her children by not being a good mother, and the only way to help them was to kill them. This was obviously wrong and deluded, but she was highly motivated to do what her broken brain thought was the right thing.--

Expecting a mentally ill person to take the necessary steps for treatment on their own (without the help of family members or doctors) is like expecting someone with a broken leg to walk to the hospital and put on their own cast. Yes, there are certainly things she could have done differently, and I agree that making sure she didn't have any more children would have been a good start, followed by counselling, medical attention and medication if required.

What makes me want to vomit is the lack of compassion and willingness to try to understand mental illnesses, as well as the automatic response that she should be killed, by her husband or by the alleged justice system. Since she is in Texas, you last two posters have a pretty good shot at getting your wish.

Yates' Mom-In-Law Testifies at Trial
The Associated Press
Feb 20 2002 8:09AM

HOUSTON (AP) - Six weeks before she drowned her five young children in the bathtub, Andrea Yates filled the tub with water unexpectedly one day and said she ``might need it,'' her mother-in-law testified.
Dora Yates, the first of the Houston woman's relatives to take the stand in her murder trial, said Tuesday that Andrea Yates was catatonic and ``was not herself'' for several months before the children were killed last June.

Andrea Yates, 37, could face the death penalty. She has pleaded innocent by reason of insanity.

Dora Yates, who wiped her eyes Tuesday when calling Andrea her ``very precious daughter-in-law,'' said she left her home in Hermitage, Tenn., last April to visit her son's family in Houston for a week. But she ended up staying several months, she said, because Andrea was ill and needed help with the children.

Dora Yates told of a day last May when she found her daughter-in-law in the bathroom with a tub full of water. ``I might need it,'' she quoted Andrea Yates as saying.

Defense attorneys suggested during opening statements Monday that Yates' delusions had caused her to fear the family's water supply might be interrupted.

Prosecutors say Andrea Yates suffered from a mental illness but knew the difference between right and wrong at the time of the drownings.

Several police officers have testified that Andrea Yates answered their questions on June 20, looked directly at them and read and signed a consent form for police to search the house.

Houston police Sgt. David Svahn testified Tuesday that Yates' husband, Russell, ran up to the house screaming that day after his wife called him at work and told him to come home.

Svahn said he had the grim task of informing Yates that his children, ages 6 months to 7 years, were dead.

``At that point he fell to the ground and began hitting his hand on the ground,'' Svahn said. The father then picked up a plastic chair from the yard and threw it, the officer said.

``His wife told him she had hurt all five of the kids and that she finally did it,'' Svahn said.

The day before the drownings, Dora Yates said, Andrea stood in front of the television for 45 minutes as the children watched cartoons but didn't interact with them or react to the program.

Dora Yates testified that she doubted her daughter-in-law knew right from wrong, ``not in the state she was in,'' because she stared into space for hours, and even scratched her head until she had bald spots.

Andrea Yates normally was giving and comforting, but her depression grew worse after her father's death last March, Dora Yates said. Her arms trembled, her foot tapped and she smiled infrequently. When asked a question, Andrea didn't answer or waited a while before speaking, Dora Yates testified.

Yates said her daughter-in-law appeared somewhat better after a brief stay at a mental hospital last spring.

Harris County Assistant District Attorney Joe Owmby asked Dora Yates why she refused to talk with his office or expert witnesses in helping to determine whether Andrea Yates was sane at the time of the drownings.

``The prosecution is seeking the death penalty against my daughter-in-law, and I firmly think that is wrong,'' she said.

Yates is charged with murder for the deaths of three of her five children. Charges eventually could be filed in the deaths of the other two.

If Yates is found innocent by reason of insanity, a hearing will be held at least 30 days later, when she will either be released or involuntarily committed.

If jurors convict her, they must determine if she poses a future danger to society and if there is enough mitigating evidence to sentence her to life in prison rather than death.

The news in Houston last night reported that when the prosecution brought forth the pajamas of the children that she broke down.

No matter what happens this woman is going suffer. Maybe death would be the right thing to free her troubled mind and soul. Maybe it's just meant to be if she does get the death penalty. I'm not saying she should get the death penalty or even life in prison, but I just can't see how once she is mentally healthy how she could deal with the fact that she killed her own children. She has a long road ahead of her

I agree with what Keezer and Melissa said. I'm not saying she wasn't insane....obviosuly she was, but she still took the lives of her innocent children...and I feel like using insanity as a plea and getting away without punishment, is just not justified in this case. Clearly Jeffrey Domer was insane as well....but he got the punishment he deserved, and so should this woman.

that the "nice" people on here are so willing to call for the Death of this woman while we "bad" folks are saying have a little charity.

Kind of makes you think doesn't it...or maybe not!!!

Well, I personally am able to put myself in the shoes of those terrified children and a grief-ridden father. When you do that, it isn't too hard to take the next logical step and hand this 'lady' what she deserves.

I didn't know we all had labels of "nice" or "bad" here...I guess I just thought we all had a right to express our opinions, and I am not saying she should be put to death, it is not my place, thank God, to judge her, I am just saying that she should get whatever punishment that she deserves, and not just a slap on the hands because she was mentally ill at the time.

I would direct your attention to a case in your own backyard,so to speak. A NS man was accused of murdering his wife,tried,convicted and sent to prison. Just this week he was unconditionally released because the "evidence" given at his original trial by "experts" was faulty at best. There was no case in fact. Now he has to live with not only having lost years from his family but the stares of those who will never free him.

And I shouldn't have to remind you of the Donald Marshall case. A young Indian man falsely convicted of murder by incompetent police and "experts". He too lost most of his youth sitting in prison for a crime committed by another.

The death penalty would have written both these innocents off,no chance to find the mistake. Maybe that's ok with some here,but it bothers the hell out of me.

As for this particular woman..perhaps if they had been my family I would kill her in my grief,but I would hate myself for it afterwards.
You have never seen the life light flickering out of someone's eyes. If you are atall sane that is the saddest thing there is...the plea for life. Thank God I saw that in time...

Melissa,you once told me you were learning that things are not always black and white...listen to yourself.

I'm not sure how I feel about Andrea Yates. My mind is still not made up, that's why I find all this back and forth so fascinating. I really think that if I had kids, my feelings would probably be more cut and dried than they are. I've noticed that the people who feel the strongly about this (as far as her being punished) are the ones that have children. Like Kezzer, Melissa, Debby (got a precious bundle on the way) and Daniela. Since I don't have any, it's hard to put myself in that parent role.

KF, I was a little confused by your examples, because in the top 2, both people where innocent (that's what I inferred anyway) of the crimes they were accused of, and there's no doubt about Andreas guilt, just if she's responsible for her actions or not. Maybe I'm completely missing something, but I don't see how they stories are comparable. She's definitly killed those children, the jury just has to decide if she was in her right mind or not. She's going to lose years of her life, the question is will it be in a mental hospital or a prison. Her fate now lays in 12 peoples hands. Fair or not, that's our justice system and as flawed as it is, I'll still take it over what passes for justice in other countries.

I understand peoples frustration and anger. I understand the fact that Julieb can relate to the condition that this lady may have been suffering from, as well as Kezzer, Melissa, or any other parents horror and anger. It's all about perspective. We are all looking at this from a different angle.

You and I have already had one misunderstanding,so let's not have another.

I just find it a bit incongruous that some of the folks who are among the kindest,most caring of us with their cats and kids so consistantly cry "Death Sentence" when one of these cases comes up. Just kind of sad.

I have no lasting ill feeling for anyone here,even those who have chosen to personally attack me and Barb. There is a basic goodness in everyone in this site,otherwise we wouldn't be so involved in our "Kiddens" or enjoy them so much. Too bad that a few apparently can't extend that to their own species.

BTW..I consider you to be one of the all-round "good" folks. Your baby is gonna be blessed with a fine Mom.

For interjecting her own personal story to shed light on what many here ( I believe) have a hard time swallowing. That someone who is mentally ill can have the capacity to plan such a murder of such innocent children and then claim to be temporarily insane. Most people when they think of mentally ill, they get the images painted by hollywood and the media, and perhaps they forget that a broken brain simply doesn't work correctly, misfiring and causing all sorts of havoc for the victim. So to try and fathom how someone who is so broken can do this is hard to accept.

Having had a brain injury myself, I know full well what not being able to function correctly means. But I am in no way comparing what happened to me to what has happened to Julie. I have a dear friend who is now suffering from inoperable brain tumors and if she had never been hit on the head in gym she would of probably never known she had this, yet it was the size of a cauliflower!

I refuse to attack anyone anymore about how they believe because it shows a lack of understanding on my part to seeing how they view the world. I haven't participated in this thread since my initial burst, because Julie's post set me back on my heels and I have been thinking about the mental issue at hand. I am not a mom, like many of the woman here, and I see these good moms speak out in anger over what this woman did, because they can't understand it. Perhaps in the discussion to come, within the anger and the confusion, understanding will come because of people like Julie who speak from personal experience and who came back after apparently being deleted the first time, to refine her message and make it less angry. Again, the anger comes because of the innocence of children lost and the inability of loving and caring parents to accept this type of crime.

As far as good people and bad people, that is also in the minds of folks as they have to determine if Andrea Yates is a bad person, or if she really is mentally insane. Here in the PNW we just had a man drown his wife and his 3 darling children in the bay. He apparently did this at different places, and it has been determined that the children were alive prior to their drowning, I wonder what went through their minds as they watched the man they trusted and called Daddy kill their mother and their siblings? Now it is to be determined if this man was temporarily insane as well.

Kittyfoot...thank you for saying I will be a good mom, I wasn't trying to have a misunderstanding with you, I just didn't understand the "nice" and "bad" people comment you made. But I think you cleared that up for me.

Hissy...I too appreicated Julieb's post...it does make one see things in a different light. Mental illness has so many sides to it, and it is hard to say when someone knew what they were doing or not. I still think she deserves to be punished though, but I am not sure about death, that may be too harsh if she really had no clue of what she was doing, but somehow I think she did know what she was doing was wrong. But like I said, I am glad I do not have to judge her...that would be a horrible job.

Then for her to have to live with the knowledge she killed all her babies.

How the heck did I become council for the defence here...:LOL:

Anyhow..I'll try to explain. The two examples I used were both as guilty in people's minds as this woman is. To some they always will be. They were both convicted by shoddy police work,shoddy evidence and incompetent courts. The death penalty would have negated any chance at all for their innocence to be proven.

In both instances everyone was convinced of their guilt. The "evidence" said so,the "experts" said so,the "courts" said so,the "media" said so. Guess what?? Everybody was WRONG!!!!

I'm not suggesting she be freed. Indeed,if her present state of mind is ever cured and the realization of what she's done strikes home,she may wish she were dead.

The point is that when judging by "media" we must bear in mind that you can't always trust their "facts". Are you sure that the truth is there because the "authorities" swear it is? They did so in the examples above. I see by the article included in this thread a woman who was very openly disturbed..everyone's saying "oh,we saw it for years." Yet nobody apparently thought to do anything..pretend everything's fine.

Now let's just suppose...just for sake of argument. If someone else actually did this thing,how hard would it be do you think to convince this poor sick woman that she had done it? What if they execute her and a couple years down the road the husband confesses? Do we shrug her death off with an OOOPS,too bad??

It's the Death Penalty I'm against here...that's all.

Now I gotta go for a bit,so I'll have to come back later. See ya folks.

I have not considered weather people on this board are "good" or "bad," but I do consider myself a good person overall, and I also believe in the death penalty. In this case, I believe that if Andrea Yates is determined to have been sane when she committed this act, then she deserves the death penalty. And here in Texas, that's what she'd probably get. However, if she is proven insane at the time, I think she deserves treatment and once she's better, she needs to go to prison for the rest of her life. I don't see how someone who's committed this type of crime, regardless of the circumstances, should be allowed to have the freedom to come and go at will and lead a otherwise normal life. There has to be some repercusions of her actions.

I keep hearing people say "how could she not know what she was doing." She knew what she was doing, but her psychosis was telling her that she needed to do it and that it was the right thing for them. Think of it this way; her brain and mind were so messed up that she was convinced that she was a bad mother and that her children were going to have a terrible life and be terrible people because of her. From what I understand she was basically thinking "Death is their only savior and because this is all my fault I owe it to them to save them from the horrible life they have to face." Through medical experts, witnesses, and other evidence this is what the attorneys have to prove. Even if they can prove this without a reasonable doubt the jury may choose to not see this and convict her. This is why the jury screening process was so long. They had to make sure they picked people who did not have a firm position on the incident and were open to insanity as a possible reason. Basically people who believe insanity can be a defense and believe in the death penalty.

There is also no way that even is she is declared insane, once she is better she will not go to prison - that's not how the legal system works.