Columbus Day controversy

Heidi, I know here that the school boards are trying to get rid of Columbus Day holiday in the schools.

Columbus isn't a large figure in Canadian curriculum and we obviously don't have the holiday here, but what I remember of him was that he was a big proponent of colonization and the slave trade so I can see the animosity towards such a holiday..

We were taught in school that Columbus "discovered" America. The Vikings were here long before Columbus, and it was already populated, so he did not discover anything. I always thought it was a stupid holiday.

I hope you don't mind a quick hi-jack. My brother's birthday is on Colombus Day. When we were kids (before just about all holidays were on Mondays) he thought the whole school took the day off for his birthday!

Heidi, since the question is do we see it happening in our areas, no I haven't heard about it.

But I have to agree with KrazyKat2, even when I was younger I thought it was kind of an unfortunate holiday.

Not to mention that there were Indians living on the land as well...Seems bizarre that someone could discover a place that was already "discovered" by the aboriginals who existed there long before!

Well, and correct me if I'm wrong, but after "discovering" America his life got pretty miserable, he was stripped of his titles, and died in dishonor.

And then we celebrate him? How odd.

Of course life was a bit miserable in those years anyway.

Compared to other Conquistador, the actions of Columbus to the natives such as capturing them and using them as slaves (including some for a personal nature), his actions seemed mild. Although one could argue that the reason for this was that the Spanish government back home ordered him to maintain a friendly relation with the locals at that point.

If the concept of changing values and judging people according to historical circumstance is adopted, then it could be argued that his actions in enslaving the locals were consistent with the norms of the times but that should not mean that such realisation is tantamount to approval to it. Although, it could argued that at that time, there were some people who believe that such actions such as killing or slavery was not right.

Not too sure what exactly they are planning to teach but if the historical facts are correct then I do not see the problem with that.

In any event, while a reason for a holiday may be silly or offensive, there is no such thing as a stupid holiday. All holidays by itself are good and THAT I believe everyone can agree upon.

Didn't we talk about this a few months ago???? but anyway Yes we should still celebrate Columbus Day. Not that anything happens on Columbus Day anyway, some huge sales that's about it

Here in California we have Native American Day. I find that the kids really like it! As for Columbus day, since the conquistadors were the ones who really explored this state, Columbus Day never made much sense to me. Latin America is based on a Imperialistic society, which I find hard to stomach - thank goodness that our Founding Fathers prefered to adopt the traditions of the Iriquois & Cherokee nations which espoused equality and also rejected the notion that one human should bow down to another (as the English did to show submission to their royalty).

Since I live in Canada, there's not Columbus day here but if there was, I would not celebrate it.

Columbus himself wasn't a particularely horrible person. Far from being a hero either. But the anniversary is more about the arrival of Europeans in America, which did lead to great destruction for the natives.

Interestingly enough, historians nowadays agree that the Spanish were not really worse in their treatment of natives than other Europeans. They did massacre people, enslave them and steal from them, but they were not the only ones.
The English also massacred a lot of natives and pushed the others into reservations. All the nice stories about Thanksgiving and aboug Pocahontas are the exception, not the rule, of how natives were treated.

It's true that the United States was built on the idea of "liberty" and "equality" but you have to understand that at the time, it was meant to apply only to white men. Women, slaves and natives were not considered equal.
The idea of equality applying to all human beings came much later.
For the most part, natives were seen as an obstacle to the spreading of settlements and were treated as such.

To be fair, when you look at statistics of how much of the native population died since the arrival of Columbus, keep in mind that not all of them were massacred. The great majority died of European diseases for which they had no immunity.

Still, I think the arrival of Columbus marks the start of the decline of many great societies and of the death of milions. Doesn't seem like a great anniversary to celebrate.

I'm confused as to who you think they are being unfair to though, since your analogy doesn't really fit. I mean, it does seem a little bit silly to me since very few people really care about Columbus, and a lot seem to agree with this radical group to a lesser extent (that he was the beginning of a genocide).

Furthermore I'd agree that changing the textbooks to suit the desires of a radical group is no good (and feel very strongly about this as it relates to other current issues). But what difference would it make if it were now dubbed "Native American Day" or "Italian Day"? I think as long as it stayed a holiday , most wouldn't care.

Churchill may be a nut- but he's on to something. Others on this thread discussed why celebrating Columbus makes no sense and I'd have to agree with them. He didn't discover America, he brought death and suffering to Native peoples (although I don't believe he intentionally brought smallpox- that's stretching it!). Slavery, rape, and murder were a pretty common occurance. Much of what is written about this man in history books is an outright lie- although not all history books treat him as a hero. I don't believe he should be celebrated and I believe the truth about him and his place in history should be made known. He's a folk hero of sorts-the identity presented to us all these years is fake, but it's hard to let go of.

The only thing I have to say about it is, I detest Ward Churchill. He is a traitor to his country and should, at the very least, be fired from his job at CU. In addition to being a traitor, he is a total phony. Men like him, IMO, are what is horribly wrong in colleges today.

Some people claim that he was the one who invented this story in the 1990s, which simply isn't true. My high school history textbook included the story of an attempt to use small-pox infected blankets as "biological weapons", and I graduated in 1975. For an interesting discussion of the topic, take a look at this Michigan State University site: http://www.h-net.msu.edu/~west/threa...-smallpox.html

If you want to denigrate someone, you would be better off going after Cortez and Pizarro than Columbus. They did much much worse.
Columbus never even really touched shore here did he?

To be on the fair side, I personally think that it was ok for the Europeons to come over here and stop the civilizations (Aztec, etc) that did human sacrifices on a HUGE scale. Aztecs did human sacrifices on a grand scale.
So did the Maya and the Incas though maybe not on such a grand scale.

Wow! Intriging conversation. I am a Canadian so we have no Columbus Day here - I do recall it was/is the same day as one of our holidays - rememberence day or thanksgiving (which is a much smaller deal in Canada than it is in the US and is celebrated in Oct and not Nov) - and we had plans to go shopping in Maine only to discover - pun intended - that the state was celebrating something too, sigh!

That said, there are a plethora of silly holidays out there. Perhaps if it really objectionable, Columbus Day might be renamed something else? I dare say it would frustrate Americans of Italian descent though who - imperialist swine that he was - though. I always wihed St. Patrick's Day was a holiday but even though many Irish people are in politics, it just never made the cut, lol

At varying places and times in Canada, however, there are holidays in honour of Natal Day (Nova Scotia honours its navy heritage, past and present), Guy Fawkes Day - after a plot by some misguided souls tried to blow up the Parliament Buildings in England was thwarted, Boxing Day - the day after Christmas celebrated throughout the Commonweath which comes from a tradition of giving "boxes" or gifts to servants in Britain, Rememberance Day, November 11 - when we honour our war dead at the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month. The date coincides with the day the armistice was signed between the Allies in World War I (The war to end all wars, yeah right!!) commemorates and Germany and its allies; St. Jean Baptiste Day is Quebec's Day (June 24) to celebrate its unique place in confederation or to display parades in favour of why the province should be a sovererign country of its own; August 15 - La Fete de l"Assomption, Feast of the Assumption, an important day in the history of Les Acadiens and the "national" holiday for Acadians - not an official holiday per se but recognized in NB; The Queen's Birthday - which is held not on the birthday of the current Queen but on the date of Queen Victoria's birth date. (I am not a monarchist but hey, it's a holiday).

While a friend recently informed me I was one of the most politically correct person he knew, I have to admit there are some holidays that are tradition and if we correct every holiday and atone for every sin some forefather - and yes, it usually was a foreFATHER, women were usually legally regarded as property in those days and could not vote much less plan invasions or genocide - engaged in, we would be apologizing every week.

I was happy to see Tony Blair apologize for the Famine (though it really was a hunger - there was not a famine as much as there was a genocide, ships left Ireland daily filled to capacity with food to go to England but that is an entorely different story). However, I did wonder why he apologized now. He was not around to be involved in it when it happened and I am not so sure we can judge what happened in 1845-47 by the mores and social values of 2005. The Acadians in NB want an apology for the grand derangement or the expulsion but that should not come from me or anyone who represents me in government since most of are of different heritage than Governor Lawrence or King George III who reigned when it occured. Poor old George, who was mentally ill by the time he died, left quite a legacy. He lost the colonies in America, left Canada with a language issue we still debate, shipped off many Irish people to Australia and set the stage for later losing India.

A few years ago, I encountered a poster in a US university that portrayed an expression I really subscribe to:

We may all have come in different ships but we are all in the same boat now!

I am not aware of Mayas and Incas doing human sacrifices. I'd have to look it up.

It's true that the Aztecs did have human sacrifices but most of it stemmed from war. Whenever they had a war, instead of killing people, like most would do, they would capture them (often hit them on the head to render them unconscious) and then bring them to the pyramids to be sacrificed. So most of the sacrifices were delayed war killing.
Not to say that it was a good thing for them to do, but it's not much worse than war.

And that's certainly not what Aztec culture was about. There was much more to it, good and bad (like all civilizations). Most Aztec people were certainly not involved in human sacrifices (they were farmers, traders, etc.).

There were two forms of sacrifice. The group which is form by volunteers and the other group which are prisoners from war. The amount of humans who died from sacrifice is much lower than the amount of people who were killed when the Spanish. So effectively what colonisation did was to replace human sacrifice of which part of it was volunteery to 1) death from colonialism 2) introduction of a more wide spread and cruel form of slavery 3) destruction of their civilisation through disease imported and 4) destruction of their culture and language.

While human sacrifice may seem wrong today, we have to view it according to historical circumstances. At least for the people who volunteered to be sacrificed for their religion and it is no different from the concept from the Christian religion where Jesus died for humanity. The sacrifice were part of the belief that it was necessary to prevent the destruction of the planet.

Finally I sincerely hope you are not advocating or defending colonialism on the grounds that colonialism was beneficial to the natives because what you suggested or a variance of it was generally the mindset of many colonialist. That is the natives need to be saved and the only one who could do so are the colonialist. Writings of many people at the colonial era from Columbus up to even people like John Stuart Mills adopted the belief that they are actually helping the natives by colonising and enslaving them.

The Aztecs did human sacrifice on a grand scale. Not just in war. They did it to have good crops and all kinds of reasons. The priests would stand on the top of their pyramid or temple in full view and they plucked the heart out of living people. Then they would throw the body down the steps.
They would do this at certain times, they would start and sacrifice one person after another. By the end the priest would be covered from head to toe with blood and gore. They even sacrificed babies at certain times.
And virgins. Don't white wash it, it was what it was. I am not saying what the Spanish did was right but it did stop the ritual of human sacrifice.

And yes, the Maya and the Incans did it too. Not to mention the Toltecs and the Oelmacs.

I don't think to many babies volunteered to be sacrificed. The religious reason just doesn't cut it for me. And comparing human sacrifice to Jesus Christ is the insult of the highest order. Nice
Jesus the Christ was the son of God and chose to sacrifice himself to save us from our sins. I don't think he would have thought to much about a baby being sacrificed or anyone for that matter for the reason of getting a good crop yield. I am constantly amazed here.

Actually all reports of human sacrifice stems from Spanish reports. Potential for bias maybe and also many of it was second hand. But more substantially, investigations have shown a wide discrepancies between what is claimed and reality. For example one Aztec boast was that 100,000 was sacrificed in a few days for certain event but examination of it and the place shows that it is not possible in any practical sense. Figures generally point to the thousands rather than the hundred of thousands.

If one wants to criticise them from today's stand point, then the actions by the colonialist are far more brutal. But if we seek to use the standards of modern society then actions by Columbus would also be extremely reprehensible.

You would notice that my comparison is qualified by people who volunteered. So talk about babies and such is not relevant to the discussion. For those who volunteered, and they were generally of the warrier caste if I recall correctly, they believe they are doing their actions to help their society. In the case of Jesus he died for to help mankind. In the examination of various religions it is similar. At this point you have to step out of your own shoes and personal belief and examine all religions with the same standard.

Well, to me, thousands is pretty, darn bad. Doesn't change the fact that human sacrifice, plucking peoples hearts out of their living breathing bodies, to men women children and babies was a most horrific practice.
While I find what the Europeons did to the native population of this continent vile and disgusting, it was bound to happen.
Such is the nature of human beings. Sad but true.

Yeah no one is saying it is good. But according to your earlier comment, you said that the colonisation is better than the status quo vis a vis the local population. I am merely comparing two bad situations and saying that one situation is worse than the other.