Minies

I don't understand all of the people against the Toy or Mini Persians. If they're not MEANT to be tiny, then I would like to know how they were meant to have flat faces. Persians started out with noses much like every other cat. Now, they are breeding them for flat faces, where they snort when they breathe, and where it's hard for them to eat wet food. I had a flat faced Persian, and he passed away at the tender age of two, although not because of his flat face.

What I'm trying to say is, the flat face must have started out as a mutation, and then people started breeding to get the face as flat as possible. I don't think a Mini sized Persian is half as much of a mutation as the flat face is.

I would like to see a Mini Persian, and I'm certainly not going to condemn the breeding of Toy Persians.

Siamese cats like my little SunLee are a mutation as well. Siamese were meant to look like my cat Shane, yet breeders decided they wanted the sleek, wedge faced Siamese more like SunLee. Breeders, use mutations all of the time to create a breed more to their liking. My Bengal Simba is just perfect, I think. I'm glad breeders bred domestics with Asian Leopard Cats, to create the most wonderful breed I've ever known, The Bengal.

There a good and bad breeders in any of the breeds - and a lot of "designer" breeds started out with money hungry people - not those concerned with health issues. I still do not agree with breeding wild cats into domestic cats - that's my opinion. Whether or not they would do it in the wild is immaterial to me - it happens; dogs mate with wolves, but when you put people in charge of deliberatly breeding exotic looking pets, I call it into question.

Instead of making new breeds, why not pick a breed that already is here and help to improve it health wise, etc. instead of making another one because you can?

And what was the idea behind keeping the short legged munchkins being bred? For looks or health? Just because one or two showed up naturally doesn't mean you keep breeding them. Again, I feel it was done for profit - not health.



BTW Hope- if you've research the background of Siamese you would know that in Siam there were two different types of Siamese cats - the "temple" cats and the "street" cats. The temple cats were more of the slender wedge-shaped head look as the "show" Siamese now. The more rounded head/apple head, heavier boned were the street Siamese - those were the ones that were first brought over to Europe/America and were the "style" of Siamese at the time. Only later were some of the more "exotic" temple Siamese brought in. The temple ones were sacred and highly prized.

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

There a good and bad breeders in any of the breeds - and a lot of "designer" breeds started out with money hungry people - not those concerned with health issues. I still do not agree with breeding wild cats into domestic cats - that's my opinion. Whether or not they would do it in the wild is immaterial to me - it happens; dogs mate with wolves, but when you put people in charge of deliberatly breeding exotic looking pets, I call it into question.

Instead of making new breeds, why not pick a breed that already is here and help to improve it health wise, etc. instead of making another one because you can?

And what was the idea behind keeping the short legged munchkins being bred? For looks or health? Just because one or two showed up naturally doesn't mean you keep breeding them. Again, I feel it was done for profit - not health.



BTW Hope- if you've research the background of Siamese you would know that in Siam there were two different types of Siamese cats - the "temple" cats and the "street" cats. The temple cats were more of the slender wedge-shaped head look as the "show" Siamese now. The more rounded head/apple head, heavier boned were the street Siamese - those were the ones that were first brought over to Europe/America and were the "style" of Siamese at the time. Only later were some of the more "exotic" temple Siamese brought in. The temple ones were sacred and highly prized.

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You still don't say why you don't like for people to breed wild and domestic together. You have nothing to support your statements you simply "don't like it".

I hate that term "designer" breeds, makes animals sound like purses or a pair of jeans or something that gets warn out and tiring and thrown away.

There was an add in the local campus newspaper here in Kent one day about how great little tiny dogs are to carry around in your purse like the famous people do. And how every one should fork over $500 to the MALL PET SHOP and buy one because they are cool and you aren't trendy unless you have one.

It completely sickened me.

...if they're happy and healthy, as the article explains, and you're not just breeding runts to runts to make small cats but rather cats with an actual mini mutation gene, what does it matter? Frankly half the breeds that exist wouldn't exist naturally, and genetic mutation occurs in nature.

Bengalbabe, I don't like it because I feel its just plain wrong. Why can't you help improve other established breeds that are already here, rather then create a new one?

And even if a wild cat is immuned to FELV, what good does it do for the rest of the domestic cats. If you wanted to help them too - then breed the wild cat to ALL domestic cats. Instead you have a "new breed" who is not helping anyone or any other cat.

Bengal's are an already established breed. They are no longer an experiment. They're newer than Siamese, but they are an Official Breed. The Bengal's that most breeders sell are SBT, which is COMPLETELY domesticated. I personally don't think the lady who started the breed, did it out of greed. However, all cats were wild in their original form.

Bengal's are beautiful loving cats, and I think an improvement on the domestic breeds that were used to start them. I personally think it's so cool to look in my sweet little boys eyes, and see the look of the wild cat in them, as well as touch his soft fur that feels like Mink, unlike any other cat I've felt. Not to mention the beauty of the way his coat glitters in the sunlight or even when the overhead light hits him just right. There is something so special and wonderful about a Bengal. I'm not personally familiar with other breeds that are being created by using wild cats, but I see nothing but good things when it comes to Bengals.

I can honestly see how a Bengal would make people think twice about wearing fur, when you can hold a sweet loving cat in your arms who's fur or pelt feels just like the coats that are being made from the fur of a wild cat or animal. I know the first time I held my little Simba, I thought of wild cats being used as furs, and I thought that if a person who see's no problem wearing furs were to hold him, they'd think twice about wearing furs again.

It "feels" wrong to me, too, to try for designer breeds. However, I am honest enough to say, that if I had cats who suddenly turned up with a very desirable mutation, I would want to continue it.

Say I had barn cats, or inside cats that hadn't been speutered in time. Then the kittens were born as black cats with blue eyes, or orange cats with black stripes. I would certainly want more of the same, and would try to safely breed to allow that to continue.

If some breeders take the results of such an occurance, and try to continue that trait, I don't think it is wrong. But there are millions of people out here like me, trying to rescue moggies, and it does seem unfair that one cat is valued at $1000, and others are worthless junk to be disposed of. If in any way ending the breeding programs would help the moggies, then I would be for ending breeding programs. But they are not harming the hoardes of moggies. And maybe sometimes, someone who buys an expensive cat as a toy to show off to their friends, will be educated by the breeder. They will learn to love cats as the perfect animal companions that they are.

We each need to be aware of our prejudices over cats. Hope lives with a bengal and two siamese; she thinks they are fantastic. I live with moggies, and love them dearly. I had a siamese mix once, and while I loved him, to me he acted more like a dog than a cat. Given the choice between moggie and meezer, I go moggie. I'm also a cheapskate, and wouldn't pay thousands for a cat (except to a vet, LOL!). But for the catlover who thoughtfully chooses a purebred cat to try to breed...I can't condemn them.

To CinArt the original poster: I take you are a member of a breeding association and also an association of breeders and owners of you special breed? That would be the way to go, if you are a serious breeder. Your association(s) should know where to find what you are looking for, as such cats must be registered.

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Bengalbabe, I don't like it because I feel its just plain wrong. Why can't you help improve other established breeds that are already here, rather then create a new one?

And even if a wild cat is immuned to FELV, what good does it do for the rest of the domestic cats. If you wanted to help them too - then breed the wild cat to ALL domestic cats. Instead you have a "new breed" who is not helping anyone or any other cat.

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Still no good arguement why it would be wrong to breed wild/domestic. Your overlooking all that is good about the bengal breed because you personally don't like it for no reason what so ever.
ALL domestic cats came from wild cats-what part of that don't you understand!!!????
geesh..... I hate it when people think so narrow minded that they can't see any other side but their own.

Why not give ME a good reason to breed wild bobcats, severls, asian leopard cats and any other wild cat people are experimenting with to cross breed with our domestic cats. YOU have not given me any good reasons that would benefits cats in general.

Just because a different cat shows up in the population is not legitimate reason to keep breeding that kind of cat.

In the dog world, there have been cases of wolves breeding with domestic dogs or coyotes breeding with domestic dogs, but no one is saying "lets start crossing them to make a new dog and promote it as being ok". Have you been to a dog show where you have a wolf/dog or coyote/dog being promoted as the "in thing".

Sorry but your theory doesn't hold water in my book. Again, why did you chose to pay for a bengal cat instead of helping to improve the existing breeds?

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Why not give ME a good reason to breed wild bobcats, severls, asian leopard cats and any other wild cat people are experimenting with to cross breed with our domestic cats. YOU have not given me any good reasons that would benefits cats in general.

Just because a different cat shows up in the population is not legitimate reason to keep breeding that kind of cat.

In the dog world, there have been cases of wolves breeding with domestic dogs or coyotes breeding with domestic dogs, but no one is saying "lets start crossing them to make a new dog and promote it as being ok". Have you been to a dog show where you have a wolf/dog or coyote/dog being promoted as the "in thing".

Sorry but your theory doesn't hold water in my book. Again, why did you chose to pay for a bengal cat instead of helping to improve the existing breeds?

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Where have you been? I did give you more then one good reason why it is a good thing to breed bengals.
And yes, at dog shows every dog we see if a wolf hybred because all dogs came from wolves.
I can't argue with ignorence though so im not going to keep going in cirlces with you. You see it the way you want even if you only choose to see it in your narrow point of view.

goldenkitty45

heres a quote from the rules of this forum

"It seems that once again it is time to re-post the intent of this forum & the expectations I as a moderator have for the posts that appear here. As I really cannot say it any better than my one time co-moderator, I will simply repost these thoughts & add a.few more.

As the moderators of this forum, I have, for some time now, felt compelled to respond to the recent negative posts and responses from individuals who are either anti-breeder, try to nit pick posts, or in some other way discouraging of those who post valid and important questions here.

The Breeder's Corner is NOT the place to do this. I believe (and consider it to be my personal duty to make absolutely certain) that this forum is a place where breeders and those interested in learning from them can feel safe and protected.

While many have strong views about the issue of breeding, and while some may even present valid arguments, this is not the appropriate forum to voice your views. Nor is it appropriate to try and belittle someone or otherwise try to flame them for something they have posted.

I think it is safe to say that the Breeder's Corner is reserved for serious breeders and people who want to learn from them, AND who can participate in a positive and instructive way.

If you are interested in learning about the techniques and concepts of animal husbandry as it relates to felines, you are welcome to post your questions here. If you are a breeder, please feel free to add your input, so long as it is respectful and contributes to the education of the others who choose to read the forum.

If you do NOT meet the above criteria, and it is your goal to take issue with breeders or those who want to learn from them, please don't bother.

I will also add that should a thread take a turn away from the above, it will immediately be closed. I will, however leave it in place so that the content can be read. Should you have any questions, please feel free to PM me.

Thank you in advance,
Ken"

Also on another fact on the dog shows...and the dogs and where they came from

laso apso's were originally vicious large dogs trained by tibeten monks as gaurd dogs.....over the years they were bred into the laso apso we all know today...

just a fun fact for all of you

Excuse me! But this is WAAAAAY OFF TOPIC from the original poster's query (not you Nebula, we're on the same page!) (Not that it hasn't been interesting yunnerstan ,) just rather questionable to be here in this particular forum. It's a better topic for IMO I think, or IMO as it were (pun intended.)

Rosehawke brings up a good point so this thread is now closed. If you all want to continue the discussion regarding breeds and mutations, please feel free to take it to IMO.

Your Forums Moderator,

Gaye