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Negligent Homicide charges against nursing home owners

post #1 of 25
9/14/05 at 12:41pm
Thread Starter 
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/09/13/ka...ome/index.html

I hope the book is thrown at these two! How inhumane and uncaring can people be???
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post #2 of 25
9/14/05 at 12:58pm
How could people do that? It just makes me sick to think about those poor people. It is bad enough that they were in a nursing home, then to die in such a horrible manner. I just pray that they went quickly.
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post #3 of 25
9/14/05 at 2:38pm
Thats terrible!, those people were someones parents and grandparents

I don't know what it's like over in the states with regards to ill treatment of the elderly, but over here those two would be given a good beating by prison inmates over here
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post #4 of 25
9/14/05 at 3:22pm
I was so glad to see that. It totally made me sick, especially since my grandma spent the last 6 yeas of her life in a nursing home. I hope all of the families of those who died bring suits against them, too. The only thing I can say for them, is at least they surrendered instead of continue to be on the run. Disgusting sickos.

Amber
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post #5 of 25
9/14/05 at 4:04pm
I think the whole thing is an outrage.
I think of how scared those people must have been & it makes me want to cry.
Another thing that struck me as sad was the fact that only 6 were taken by family members, & the rest were basically left there. To die.
Unbelieveable what horrors the human race is capable of.
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post #6 of 25
9/14/05 at 4:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatkitties
I was so glad to see that. It totally made me sick, especially since my grandma spent the last 6 yeas of her life in a nursing home. I hope all of the families of those who died bring suits against them, too. The only thing I can say for them, is at least they surrendered instead of continue to be on the run. Disgusting sickos.

Amber
In the article, it states that these people called each family member's family personally and asked if they wanted to come get their family members as they were staying put with necessary supplies. The families ok'ed the stay.

Out of 60? people, only 6 of these elderly people were picked up. This makes me just as sad. These people were also let down by their own family members.

When I worked on an emergency home care line once, there were many nice children and family members of our elderly patients, but there were more that would simply complain and scream at you that their worker wasn't on time, couldn't come that day, etc. etc...I wanted to scream at them to "go over there themselves then!" (after all, its your own family!!)
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post #7 of 25
9/14/05 at 4:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loveysmummy
In the article, it states that these people called each family member's family personally and asked if they wanted to come get their family members as they were staying put with necessary supplies. The families ok'ed the stay.

Out of 60? people, only 6 of these elderly people were picked up. This makes me just as sad. These people were also let down by their own family members.

When I worked on an emergency home care line once, there were many nice children and family members of our elderly patients, but there were more that would simply complain and scream at you that their worker wasn't on time, couldn't come that day, etc. etc...I wanted to scream at them to "go over there themselves then!" (after all, its your own family!!)
It's not what son of one victim said when inteviewed on TV. He claimed Sal (the owner of the nursing home) was telling people they had everything they needed to evacuate.
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post #8 of 25
9/14/05 at 5:59pm
It's just not that simple when you have a family member in a nursing home. My grandma was there because she needed far more care than I could have ever hoped to provide her. Bringing her home, even breifly, and ESPECIALLY during some sort of weather disaster, would have been out of the question, for her own personal health and safety. I had her living in a facility with health care professionals for a reason-- I couldn't take care of her. Just to clarify, she and my mother weren't on speaking terms (ugh, don't ask, they are both so damn stubborn!), and me, at 22, was given power of attorney and put her in the home, per her request. My only option would be o trust the home, who was getting a ton of government money for her being there, to take care of her.

Amber
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post #9 of 25
9/14/05 at 6:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loveysmummy
In the article, it states that these people called each family member's family personally and asked if they wanted to come get their family members as they were staying put with necessary supplies. The families ok'ed the stay.

Out of 60? people, only 6 of these elderly people were picked up. This makes me just as sad. These people were also let down by their own family members.

When I worked on an emergency home care line once, there were many nice children and family members of our elderly patients, but there were more that would simply complain and scream at you that their worker wasn't on time, couldn't come that day, etc. etc...I wanted to scream at them to "go over there themselves then!" (after all, its your own family!!)
Somehow this doesn't surprise me. The way we as American's treat out elderly is horrible. My cousin's boyfriend lives in a retirement community with his Grandmother as she raised him. The first year I knew him, there was a man that would found dead in his apartment...he had been dead at least three weeks. Where was his family? I just didn't understand it then and I don't understand it now.

It's sad the number of people that stick their parents and grandparents in nursing homes and forget about them other than the yearly visit. When my Grandparents were alive we saw them every weekend without fail, it was just the way it was. Family was first, last and always in mind. (Note I was born in 1976 so it wasn't that long ago.) Most of my friends saw their Grandparents maybe once a year. Thinking about it makes me so sad.
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post #10 of 25
9/14/05 at 6:12pm
so i was just on this website and i saw a picture of the couple (i heard about this story before it just became a huge commotion because of the charges and even wrote about it on a post on here)

anyway..the way the media/website puts up the picture..its in some old black and white looking format and it makes me.not laugh..but chuckle..?? because just the way media twist pictures to make these people look like demonizing people..just..cracks me up, in any situation..its just when i saw the two photos..i thought..did they run out of color ink?? where were the nursing home owners as the water rose tho?? i mean obviously all those poor elderly/sick people died.but did the owners get rescued or something?? flee..its dumb they didnt force them out tho anyway..no matter what..im gonna read and see though where the owners were..unless someone else knows..??
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post #11 of 25
9/14/05 at 6:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loveysmummy
In the article, it states that these people called each family member's family personally and asked if they wanted to come get their family members as they were staying put with necessary supplies. The families ok'ed the stay.

Out of 60? people, only 6 of these elderly people were picked up. This makes me just as sad. These people were also let down by their own family members.

When I worked on an emergency home care line once, there were many nice children and family members of our elderly patients, but there were more that would simply complain and scream at you that their worker wasn't on time, couldn't come that day, etc. etc...I wanted to scream at them to "go over there themselves then!" (after all, its your own family!!)
i read that it was more than six people..that 32/34 people died..but like way more than six were rescued..i'll check the paper again tho! im not sure where you had those numbers. if they were on the cnn thing or what...thats what i hate about anything news/media..you cant ever trust the numbers.
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post #12 of 25
9/14/05 at 6:16pm
yea it says 52 lives were saved..and i still dont get how the owners survived if they were in the nursing home also??
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post #13 of 25
9/14/05 at 6:22pm
maybe i have a blanket over my eyes..i do think what happened is very sad and sucks for the family members..i think its dumb that they werent forced out also.. but..the two owners were elderly..older people..and i mean..i know my grandmas 'think they know best' and i've known some stubborn..SOME..elderly people (hey im stubborn too tho!) and..why i, would like to think, they just made a horrible choice and didnt think it would be cool to leave the people there, i also think they really might have been oblivious to the real outcomes..and really thought they could stay..i mean they were like in their 70's..they've seen a lot of things in their day..hypothetically..hypothetically..if they moved the people and like 10 people died..and there was no bad consequence from the storm..people would probably still be mad because then they would wonder 'why were they moved??" im not saying what they did was smart though, not trying to make excuses..

i dont see why more people dont scream (since everyone blames everyone else) at cops/whoever went around evacuating people..they could have easily taken those people w/o a fight and rescue them..its awful to think of what was going through their minds while the waters rose..

but it is interesting that the owners lived..i still dont get that part....??
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post #14 of 25
9/14/05 at 7:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiclett_33
i read that it was more than six people..that 32/34 people died..but like way more than six were rescued..i'll check the paper again tho! im not sure where you had those numbers. if they were on the cnn thing or what...thats what i hate about anything news/media..you cant ever trust the numbers, lol.
I think what she means is that only 6 families out of the 60 or so came in personally to get their people out of there. IOW, had my mom been in such a situation I wouldn't of left her there with the nursing home personnel if they had decided to "ride it out" but would have gone and GOT her! The 32-34 would have been the ones that were formally rescued by the authorities later.
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post #15 of 25
9/14/05 at 7:08pm
Nursing homes are supposed to have evacuations plans. It's not relatives' responcibility to get the patients out, because the nursing home is supposed to do it.
Other nursing homes in the area evacuated. Only this one didn't, and as a result, a lot of patients died.
The owners deserve these charges.
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post #16 of 25
9/15/05 at 5:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiclett_33
i read that it was more than six people..that 32/34 people died..but like way more than six were rescued..i'll check the paper again tho! im not sure where you had those numbers. if they were on the cnn thing or what...thats what i hate about anything news/media..you cant ever trust the numbers, lol.
I didn't say the numbers that were rescued. I said the number of elderly that was picked up beforehand by their own family.

And I do understand that some patients are unable to be moved so readily.
However, I would bet its alot more than six.
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post #17 of 25
9/15/05 at 5:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizwithcat
Nursing homes are supposed to have evacuations plans. It's not relatives' responcibility to get the patients out, because the nursing home is supposed to do it.
Other nursing homes in the area evacuated. Only this one didn't, and as a result, a lot of patients died.
The owners deserve these charges.
Yes,they are "supposed" to. We also as a society are "supposed" to have a moral responsibility to our beloved family members.
You use your own judgment in situations like this, not expect others to.
I simply can't believe that only 6 of those people were the only ones somewhat mobile who had family in the same city.
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post #18 of 25
9/15/05 at 12:13pm
When I worked in a nursing home, there were lots of residents who rarely if ever had visits. And if all the other nursing homes in NO got evacuated, the only reason this one didn't is money, IMO. And it is expensive, I'm sure, to repeatedly evacuate residents, but come on!

What a horrible horrible thing! They should be charged with homicide, and should do time. I heard somewhere about a hospital that couldn't evacuate, and gave overdoses of morphine to some patients. Oh, how I hope that is not true. As a nurse, these stories hit so close to home. Who are the staff members who cared for these people one day, and left them to die the next?!?
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post #19 of 25
9/15/05 at 9:19pm
My husband's first EMT job was with an ambulance transport service. His job was to transport very sick elderly people from the nursing home to the hospital. There is absolutely no reason why the owners couldn't have called that ambulance service. Ambulances are mobile critical care units- they have everything a trauma room has in the ER. I can't believe they didn't contact the ambulance service, especially because of their contract. I'm guessing that they just didn't want to pay for the service. Not wanting to move someone because they are seriously ill is no excuse.
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post #20 of 25
9/15/05 at 9:31pm
Thread Starter 
I don't have a print source, but I did hear on the radio that one of the big reasons they were charged is because the city offered to assist with the evacuation...and they refused the help. They said they had it covered and didn't need any assistance to get the residents to safety.
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post #21 of 25
9/16/05 at 4:10pm
I found a story in print about the docs giving morphine to hospital patients. Oh, how horrible!
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...202.shtml?et=y
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post #22 of 25
9/16/05 at 4:19pm
Here's the original article from the UK:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770

Why on earth isn't this more widely reported?!?
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post #23 of 25
9/16/05 at 5:12pm
Re: the nursing home....
Sounds like the owners and staff were negligent.
Maybe they thought they were doing what was best by keeping some patients there...maybe they thought those patients wouldn't survive being moved. Who knows. But either way, a lot of folks who had no way to get out by themselves are dead because they weren't moved.
Oh, yeah, and only 6 families came to get their relatives. WTH? No matter how much I see it, and I see it a LOT in my job, I just can't understand why some people don't care about their elderly or disabled relatives who have to be placed in nursing facilities. I have clients who haven't been visited by famiily in years.

Quote:
The doctor said medical staffers divided patients into three categories: those who were medically fit enough to survive, those who needed urgent care, and the dying, the Mail reported.
"It came down to giving people the basic human right to die with dignity," said the doctor.
"There were patients with ‘Do Not Resuscitate' signs. Under normal circumstances, some could have lasted several days. But when the power went out, we had nothing.
"Some of the very sick became distressed. We tried to make them as comfortable as possible.
"You have to understand, these people were going to die anyway."
I might get flamed for this, but here goes.

These weren't people who had a chance of making it. They were dying already and had asked not to be resuscitated. They couldn't be moved, and the power went off. These were people who had days, not weeks or months, to live.

If I were dying and had a DNR order and something like Katrina happened, knowing that I could not be moved and couldn't survive the power outage, I would beg the doctor to give me an overdose.

We are kind enough to put our beloved pets out of misery and pain when they have no chance of survival, but we demonize those who perform the same act of kindness for humans. I'm not saying it's right in every circumstance, but in some cases it is.

JMHO.
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post #24 of 25
9/17/05 at 6:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoe'n'MissKitty

I might get flamed for this, but here goes.

These weren't people who had a chance of making it. They were dying already and had asked not to be resuscitated. They couldn't be moved, and the power went off. These were people who had days, not weeks or months, to live.

If I were dying and had a DNR order and something like Katrina happened, knowing that I could not be moved and couldn't survive the power outage, I would beg the doctor to give me an overdose.

We are kind enough to put our beloved pets out of misery and pain when they have no chance of survival, but we demonize those who perform the same act of kindness for humans. I'm not saying it's right in every circumstance, but in some cases it is.

JMHO.
I agree that it is very different to end the suffering of a person who is on their deathbed to allowing an old person to suffer and drown. (Shudder) But as a nurse, I would never want to be in the position to have to choose to kill a person because they did not get evacuated. It sounds like the hospital staff may have done all they could, but again...why weren't ALL the people evacuated?

I disagree with euthanasia for people, but that is a topic for another thread. But even proponents would see this as a tragedy, I think. It is one thing to decide on euthanasia, but to be forced into a situation where that is the only solution is awful.
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post #25 of 25
9/17/05 at 3:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loveysmummy
Yes,they are "supposed" to. We also as a society are "supposed" to have a moral responsibility to our beloved family members.
You use your own judgment in situations like this, not expect others to.
I simply can't believe that only 6 of those people were the only ones somewhat mobile who had family in the same city.
At least one relative claimed he believed the nursing home was going to evacuate (after talking with Sal, the owner of the nursing home). Nursing homes have their own evacuation plans, and the owners were apparently offered buses and ambulances but chose not to evacuate. The other nursing homes in the area all evacuated, only this one didn't.
Considering other nursing homes in the same situation managed to get this done, to me, it's clearly negligence on the owner's part.
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